Catholic Church and excommunication of Nazis

[PazzoGrande]

The myth of Pius XII being in cahoots with Hitler originated from a play written in 1963, titled the Deputy/

When I was researching this in college, it astounded me that there was so much force in the assertions against Pius XII when there wasn’t anything to back it up. Pius never said he liked the Nazis or approved of what they did. Arguably he didn’t speak out as much as some insist he should have, but since when does silence indicate approval?

The research I did only pointed to that play, but how could a play have influenced so much? I was going through the book Spies in the Vatican and it said there are allegations that the whole thing was a KGB plot to discredit the Vatican.

Upon looking it up via Google, the Romanian Intelligence chief Ion Pacepa has come out to say that the Soviets did indeed attempt character assassination on the man.

The Soviets tried to discredit the Pope when he was alive, but Pacepa says nobody would have believed it because he was getting praise all around for how he went against the Nazis, so they waited till after he died and couldn’t defend himself.

Recommended reading, from a Jewish source
thejewishweek.com/features/wartime_pope%E2%80%99s_reappraisal_new_battleground_culture_war

 

[PazzoGrande]

I’m still trying to find a reliable online source showing that Pius congratulated Hitler after he survived the assassination attempt. All I see is a Wikipedia page that has a book referenced in German – a book I don’t have access to and in a language I don’t understand.

However a Holocaust scholar says the exact opposite.

When the assassination attempt on Hitler in 1939 in Munich failed, and no perfunctory letter of congratulations came from the pope, Hitler was quoted as saying, “He’s no friend of mine.” In July, 1943, Hitler was quoted as saying, “I’ll go right into the Vatican. Do you think I worry about the Vatican? I don’t care if the entire crew is in there. We’ll get the whole lot of pigs out. Afterwards we can say we’re sorry. We can always do that.” One of Hitler’s earlier quotes was that one of his missions in life was to “stamp out Christianity, root and branch.”

catholicnewworld.com/archive/cnw2000/0528/inter_0528.htm has the transcript of an interview. I know it’s a Catholic source but I don’t think that necessarily impeached its contents, as it is quoting a historian there rather than giving its own interpretation.

 

[moondawg]

.Understand, moondawg, the burden of proof is on you. These are heinous accusations. And what can be claimed without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.

My original post claimed that no Nazi leader besides Goebbels was excommunicated. Nobody had proven otherwise. I cannot prove a negative. Name a Nazi leader who was excommunicated.

 

[marymary1975]

To be fair though, I think their argument is that an explicit excommunication and condemnation would have made a difference. An excommunication Latae Sentenciae is a different st.

But that argument comes from a completely erroneous understanding of the faith and what excommunication is. Excommunication is not a political tool. Even more excommunication does not apply to people that have already departed from the faith by their own foot…because they have already well excommunicated themselves from the church. So only if someone does not have an idea what excommication is they can say that it could have helped. Anyone that actually knows what excommunication is know that it is entire argument is wrong.

 

[Estevao]

This is a biased pro-Catholic website. I cannot find a reputable source that the Bishops excommunicated all Nazis. Nazi Germany did have a concordat with the Vatican, which does seem to preclude any sort of blanket excommunication.

The fact that it is a Catholic news source does not mean that it’s not reputable. Hitler and all the other Nazi leaders were excommunicated in 1931. This was at a time that most secular governments were quite friendly to the Nazis. Neither Hitler nor any other Nazi leader made any attempt to come back into communion with the Church.

The problem you have is that you’re operating on a narrative of history created by a revisionist who is a friend and defender of a holocaust denier. You should really reassess who’s using “biased” information here. Pius XII was instrumental in the salvation of more Jews than any other organization combined, and Hitler had a plot to murder him. It’s a joke how he’s been smeared for decades.

All the sources you need are right here:

books.google.com.au/books?id=nvOInjiJxjQC&pg=PA7&lpg=PA7&dq=nazi+party+excommunicated&source=bl&ots=pd8yTtRwPh&sig=p3lRKw9FblePRoiDujv3LK3YxBw&hl=en&sa=X&ei=4c6dUvfSJJHOkQfUlIC4DQ&redir_esc=y#v=onepage&q=nazi%20party%20excommunicated&f=false

 

[commenter]

My original post claimed that no Nazi leader besides Goebbels was excommunicated. Nobody had proven otherwise. I cannot prove a negative. Name a Nazi leader who was excommunicated.

Both my post #4, and other posts, presented some background to the purpose of this action; and how and why some excommunications are either not known to the public, as well as some actions that, in themselves, automatically excommunicate the person. There is no “official canon” of excommunicated persons, in the sense there is a canon of saints you can consult. Both the imposition of, and lifting of excommunications, may involve the confessional. I assume your research totally omits the confessional, and other confidential communications.

You haven’t responded to the earlier posts. I don’t know how to respond to your “research”, as I don’t know what it could possibly consist of.

It would be better if you could frame in your question, give a purpose for your thread, and your research. Do you think the Church should excommunicate people more often? If so, why?

 

[Millie123]

I cannot prove a negative.

This statement in itself is illogical. It is a negative statement that you believe has been proven true.
You can so prove a negative, people prove negatives all the time…
For example:

1. After over 30 years in prison Ricky Wyatt proved that he did not rape 3 women. A negative was proven. innocenceproject.org/news/Blog.php
2. After being wrongly diagnosed with Alzheimers a British woman was proven to not have the disease. express.co.uk/news/uk/448750/EXCLUSIVE-Dementia-diagnosis-proved-wrong-by-new-super-scanner
   Another negative was proven…she does not have alzheimers, and it is proven.
3. A giraffe is not native to the United States…Another negative statement that is proven to be true

 

[Duane1966]

This is from the alphahistory website. It is a site run by historians, and has nothing to do with Catholicism. As you can see, and if you have the slightest clue what excommunication is, then you would know that by joining the Nazi party, in parts of Germany, WHERE THE CHURCH HAD EXPRESSLY FORBID IT, then you were excommunicating yourself. Plenty of Nazi Catholics were excommunicated, as a little competent research shows.

The Catholic Church … consistently maintained an anti-Nazi attitude. In several parts of Germany Catholics were explicitly forbidden to become members of the Nazi Party, and Nazi members were forbidden to take part in church funerals and ceremonies. The bishop of Mainz even refused to admin NSDAP members to the holy sacraments.Jane Caplan, historian Pacelli and his colleagues were not optimistic about the terms of theReichskonkordat. They knew Hitler would not protect the church’s rights – and would probably infringe them himself. It was, as put by historian Hubert Wolf, “a pact with the devil – no one had any illusions about that fact in Rome – but it [at least] guaranteed the continued existence of the Catholic Church during the Third Reich”. The Nazis began flouting the terms of the concordat while the ink on it was still drying. In December 1933, Berlin ordered that all editors and publishers must belong to a Nazi ‘literary society’; this decree gagged Catholic publications and prevented church leaders from protesting breaches of theReichskonkordat. Between 1934 and 1936 the Nazis ordered several Catholic and Lutheran youth groups to be absorbed by the Hitler Youth. Catholic schools were shut down and replaced with ‘community schools’, run by pro-Nazis. A year-long campaign against Catholic schools in Munich in 1935 saw enrolments drop by more than 30 per cent.In 1936 there were more direct attacks on the church and its members. Dozens of Catholic priests were arrested by the Gestapo and given show trials, where fabricated evidence was used to suggest they were involved in corruption, prostitution, homosexuality and pedophilia. Anti-Catholic propaganda appeared on street corners and in the pages of the notorious anti-Semitic newspaper,Der Sturmer. **This campaign produced a defensive response from the church: a March 1937 encyclical (circular letter) entitledMit brennender Sorge*(‘With burning concern’). It was written by Michael von Faulhaber, archbishop of Munich, with an introduction by Cardinal Pacelli and an endorsement from Pope Pius XI.Mit brennender Sorgecriticised Nazi breaches of the*Reichskonkordat, condemned Nazi views on race and ridiculed the glorification of statehood and leaders:Whoever exalts race, or the people, or the state, or a particular form of state … above their standard value, and raises them to an idolatrous level, distorts and perverts an order of the world planned and created by God.More than a quarter-million copies of the encyclical were distributed to German churches, to be read to congregations from the pulpit. Hitler was infuriated and the Nazi response was swift and intense. Gestapo agents raided churches and printers, seizing and destroying copies of the encyclical wherever they could be found. The campaign of propaganda and show trials against Catholic clergy continued apace through 1938-39, and several priests ended up behind the barbed wire at Dachau and Oranienburg.**- See more at: alphahistory.com/nazigermany/religion-in-nazi-germany/#sthash.1HAqCqsu.dpuf

 

[robwar]

My original post claimed that no Nazi leader besides Goebbels was excommunicated. Nobody had proven otherwise. I cannot prove a negative. Name a Nazi leader who was excommunicated.

most of them were not practicing Catholics to begin with. Most of the original Nazis were thugs, perverts, criminals and bullies looking for a cause to latch onto that blamed Jews for their own problems. The nazi party was not born in Churches but born outside in bars and back rooms with failures and bums.

 

[JimmyG88]

The Concordat was largely the work of Cardinal Pacelli who had a deep love of Germany. Our Church was quite likely to approve of Fascists (German, Spanish and Italian. It was Musolini who negotiated the Soverignty of Vatican City)

 

[Duane1966]

The Concordat was largely the work of Cardinal Pacelli who had a deep love of Germany. Our Church was quite likely to approve of Fascists (German, Spanish and Italian. It was Musolini who negotiated the Soverignty of Vatican City)

You do realize that Mussolini hated the papacy, and verbally stated that making the Vatican sovereign would reduce the power of the papacy? You do know that the Concordat was signed to allow Catholicism to still exist in Germany, and that Pacelli stated after it was signed, that he had no doubts the Nazis would break it almost immediately?

 

[JimmyG88]

You do realize that Mussolini hated the papacy, and verbally stated that making the Vatican sovereign would reduce the power of the papacy? You do know that the Concordat was signed to allow Catholicism to still exist in Germany, and that Pacelli stated after it was signed, that he had no doubts the Nazis would break it almost immediately?

Of course I realise that Politics were involved in both sides the Church has to be political to survive.

 

[estesbob]

This is a biased pro-Catholic website. I cannot find a reputable source that the Bishops excommunicated all Nazis. Nazi Germany did have a concordat with the Vatican, which does seem to preclude any sort of blanket excommunication.

So we have went from you can’t find any evidence that anyone was excommunicated to you can’t find any evidence from "reputable " sources that anyone was excommunicated- the definition of reputable evidently being any source that agrees with you .

 

[BernadetteM]

Not to be uncharitable, but where was the Lutheran Church during this time? Many Germans were Lutheran and I have never read or heard anything about their Bishops or ministers speaking out against the Nazi’s. It would be very risky for one’s life or those people under any leader who did speak out.

It is interesting that even the secular world always looks to Rome/Catholic Church to take action when tragic things are done by very evil people. Even today I expect that some feel the Church should stop the killing of Christians in the Middle East.

The more I see the world watching what the Church will do, the more I know that the Church is the True Church started by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

 

[JimmyG88]

Not to be uncharitable, but where was the Lutheran Church during this time? Many Germans were Lutheran and I have never read or heard anything about their Bishops or ministers speaking out against the Nazi’s. It would be very risky for one’s life or those people under any leader who did speak out.

It is interesting that even the secular world always looks to Rome/Catholic Church to take action when tragic things are done by very evil people. Even today I expect that some feel the Church should stop the killing of Christians in the Middle East.

The more I see the world watching what the Church will do, the more I know that the Church is the True Church started by our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

Yours in the Hearts of Jesus and Mary

Bernadette

I think you could look at the life of Dietrich Bonhoeffer. It is also salient to consider that probably the most persecuted faith group was the Jehova’s Witnesses. (hopefully I am correct in my understanding that Nazi persecution of The Jews was racial rather than religious)