Catholic Church and Immorality

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mikeledes

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One of the arguments used against the Catholic Church that really perturbs me is the immoral behavior of many of its clergy and laity throughout history. Not only the immorality of the Renaissance popes, but the Crusades, the Inquisition, African slavery (i.e. the Catholic Portugese and Spaniards), and the recent sex scandals of the clergy. If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality? Shouldn’t the Church of God be a shining example of Christian morality? When people point this out to me, its very hard for me to respond. How can I convince people that the Catholic Church is the true church when it has a committed many highly questionable acts? Even today, how many Catholics live their faith as they should compared to Evangelicals and other Protestants?

God Bless and Thank You
 
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mikeledes:
One of the arguments used against the Catholic Church that really perturbs me is the immoral behavior of many of its clergy and laity throughout history. Not only the immorality of the Renaissance popes, but the Crusades, the Inquisition, African slavery (i.e. the Catholic Portugese and Spaniards), and the recent sex scandals of the clergy. If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality? Shouldn’t the Church of God be a shining example of Christian morality? When people point this out to me, its very hard for me to respond. How can I convince people that the Catholic Church is the true church when it has a committed many highly questionable acts? Even today, how many Catholics live their faith as they should compared to Evangelicals and other Protestants?

God Bless and Thank You
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First off the Catholic Church is and has been a hospital for sinners. Men try to live up to its proposition and fail. This is not a measurement of the Church but of men.

Second, study the real history of the above issues you raised. You will find out that the truth is more complicated than what you read.
 
Dear Mikeledes:

I find myself having to battle with these arguments, as well. First, Jesus promised us that scandal and offense would come. In Matthew 18:7 Jesus states, “Woe to the world because of scandals! For it must needs be that scandals come, but woe to the man through whom scandal does come.” Also, in Luke 17:1, He says, “It is impossible that scandals should not come; but woe to him through whom they come.”

In fact, one of the earliest scandals and offenses we see comes from within Our Lord’s closest circle: Judas’ betrayal, Peter’s denial, and the other apostle’s abandonment.

Certainly, the Catholic Church is filled with sinners, and I stand at the front of that line. Thankfully, the Catholic Church is supposed to be the Ark that saves sinners and not the cruiseship for the self-righteous, as Our Lord tells us that he came to call not the righteous but sinners. (Matt 9:10-13).

Noncatholics cannot claim that their churches are without sin, unless they believe the words of Saint John in 1 John 1:10 are a lie.

I hope this helps.

Fiat
 
The Church has gotten a bad rap on most of these subjects, particularly the crusades, the inquisition and slavery.
But it’s not going to be easy to explain to anyone who has been brought up on ‘bad history’ that the crusades were a response to Radical Islam, or that the inquisition wasn’t as cruel as it is made out to be in popular history or that the Church has always been anti-slavery.
As for the current problem of ‘pedophile priests’ that is a misnomer in that most of the abused were adolescent rather than pre-pubescent children as the term pedophile describes.
Not that it isn’t a horrible situation, even so.
The percentage of priests that are sexual abusers is the same or less than public school teachers and Protestant ministers. It’s really a matter of what makes the ‘news’.
The Church does not condone sin in any way so as stated above the Church is run by men, and men are sinners (not to be sexist - women are sinners, too) and so the Church is not to be blamed for the sins of it’s people.
Martin Luther decided that you could and should “sin and sin boldly” since it makes Jesus Sacrifice that much greater. It was his own concupiscence that caused him to break from the Church’s teaching that each Mortal sin must be confessed in order to go to Heaven. It was easier for him to believe that once you are saved you stay saved and all you need to be saved is Faith.
Steve Kellmeyer has some very interesting lectures on CD that discuss the Crusades and the Inqisition that you might enjoy:
Bride Groom Press
 
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mikeledes:
One of the arguments used against the Catholic Church that really perturbs me is the immoral behavior of many of its clergy and laity throughout history. Not only the immorality of the Renaissance popes, but the Crusades, the Inquisition, African slavery (i.e. the Catholic Portugese and Spaniards), and the recent sex scandals of the clergy. If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality? Shouldn’t the Church of God be a shining example of Christian morality? When people point this out to me, its very hard for me to respond. How can I convince people that the Catholic Church is the true church when it has a committed many highly questionable acts? Even today, how many Catholics live their faith as they should compared to Evangelicals and other Protestants?

God Bless and Thank You
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Many problems Protestants attack ocurred before the reformation. In other words, it is easy to attack the church while it dealt with problems Protestants never had to deal with. You will find that by the time the Crusades started, 2/3 of all Christian territory had been forcebly converted to Islam by fire and sword. What else could have been done other than fight back?

Recent documentaries on the inquisition show that it was actually a positive development. The inquisition as most people know it, is a gross exaggeration caused by lies and propaganda from evangelicals and Protestants.

Always remember the good things that have come out of the church. Also, remember that since the RCC is the mystical body of Christ, it will always be the target of Satan. There will always be hell sent scandals from without and Judas priests from within, but the promise of the Lord is that the attacks of the gates of Hell will not prevail. This does not mean there will never be scandals. It means that the church will win in the end.

Thal59
 
It has been there from the beginning-

Before the Catholic Church was born at Calvary even the very apostles of Jesus betrayed Him, abandoned Him, denied even knowing Him (The first Pope at that).

Satan began throwing stones at the Church from even before it’s official birth at Calvary. And he has continued to do it throughout history, particularly by turning the Church against herself with the great heresies of the fourth century up to the greatest ones of the 11’th and 16’th century.

Ken
 
Like the previous posters have pointed out, the Church will always have scandals, always have failings as long as it is filled with humans. And if you pay close attention, the Protestants and Evangelicals have had their fare share of scandals. Anyone remember Salem, Massachusettes? And there were plenty more. Anyone remember Baker and Swaggart and many more we won’t bother to mention? We all have troubles in our camps.

As far as the morality of Catholics compared to the morality of Evangelicals, I’ve got to tell you, things are not always as they seem.

In the Evangelical world, people are much better at hiding what goes on, because they are under the mistaken impression that things are quite rosy with all their fellow Christian brothers and sisters. I know, I grew up in that world and remained there for 40 years and was quite good at covering up.

The divorce rate is pretty much the same in both Catholicism and Evangelicalism, and I can tell you, everything else is pretty much the same, just not confessed, that’s all. I’m not saying that people weren’t trying, but they didn’t have the same understanding that falling down was pretty much inevitable on our journey and pretty common among all Christians, so things were much more secretive where sin was concerned.

So don’t let that particular argument cause you to falter. The grass on the other side is not indeed any greener!
 
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mikeledes:
One of the arguments used against the Catholic Church that really perturbs me is the immoral behavior of many of its clergy and laity throughout history. Not only the immorality of the Renaissance popes, but the Crusades, the Inquisition, African slavery (i.e. the Catholic Portugese and Spaniards), and the recent sex scandals of the clergy. If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality? Shouldn’t the Church of God be a shining example of Christian morality? When people point this out to me, its very hard for me to respond. How can I convince people that the Catholic Church is the true church when it has a committed many highly questionable acts? Even today, how many Catholics live their faith as they should compared to Evangelicals and other Protestants?

God Bless and Thank You
Click to expand...
Christ came to save sinners. Just look at who Jesus hung out with. Becoming Catholic doesn’t magically grant you perfection. It does give you a higher standard to live up to. Some people simply fail. That’s true in all faiths, but we Catholics have a bigger bullseye on us because of our size.
 
Jesus said that there would always be weeds among the wheat. (Matthew 13:24-30)

Here are a few examples from the New Testament of Christians engaged in sinful behavior:
Annaias and Saphira withholding some of the money they had promised to give to the Christian community and then lying about it to Peter (Acts 5:1-11); Simon Magus trying to buy the gifts of the Holy Spirit (Acts 8:9-24); a man living immorally with his father’s wife (1 Corinthians 5:1-5), and Christians getting drunk at the Lord’s supper (1 Corinthians 11:21).

Jesus did not say that the servant whom he set over his household would not abuse the other servants; He said that if he did he would face a severe judgment. (Matthew 24:45-51; Luke 12:41-48)

Paul understood that some church leaders might abuse their positions of trust and he gave Timothy instructions on how to deal with it. (1 Timothy 5:19-20)

Consider also Jesus’ letters to the seven churches in chapters 2 and 3 of the Book of Revelation; most of them are not very complimentary.
 
Hi mikeledes

We protestants have the same problems with sin in our midst.
Read Paul’s Letters most of them were correcting the church for some misbehaviors. The Crusades were simply Christians fighting back invading Muslims. The Inquisition needs some study. The US was mostly protestant and they participated in African slavery too. As for Sex Scandals all religions have had the same problem and men of good faith in all religions and in all non-religions should work together to address preventing such abuse.

“If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality?” Answer we are all sinners, forgiven.

Yes, we should seek to be an example of agape, love. But, we all fall from time to time.

Protestants do not like talking about our dirty laundry too.
 
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mikeledes:
One of the arguments used against the Catholic Church that really perturbs me is the immoral behavior of many of its clergy and laity throughout history. Not only the immorality of the Renaissance popes, but the Crusades, the Inquisition, African slavery (i.e. the Catholic Portugese and Spaniards), and the recent sex scandals of the clergy. If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality? Shouldn’t the Church of God be a shining example of Christian morality? When people point this out to me, its very hard for me to respond. How can I convince people that the Catholic Church is the true church when it has a committed many highly questionable acts? Even today, how many Catholics live their faith as they should compared to Evangelicals and other Protestants?

God Bless and Thank You
Click to expand...
It’s quite simple…
Jesus promised the gates of hell would not prevail against His church…

therefore, He knew the church would be under constant attack by the devil - from inside and out.

that we see evidence of this battle day in, day out over the years should be a surprise to no one who believes in the words of Jesus Christ. It is a constant reminder of the Truth He revealed.

This is why we must pray fervently for our priests, bishops, clergy, the Pope and all the pope’s intentions. The prayers of the faithful are the shield of the Church.

I suppose if you really think about it, the day there **is **actual peace and harmony in and around the Church is the day non-Catholics should start getting anxious, because it could easily be taken as a sign that the End is truly near. 😉
 
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mikeledes:
One of the arguments used against the Catholic Church that really perturbs me is the immoral behavior of many of its clergy and laity throughout history. Not only the immorality of the Renaissance popes, but the Crusades, the Inquisition, African slavery (i.e. the Catholic Portugese and Spaniards), and the recent sex scandals of the clergy. If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality? Shouldn’t the Church of God be a shining example of Christian morality? When people point this out to me, its very hard for me to respond. How can I convince people that the Catholic Church is the true church when it has a committed many highly questionable acts? Even today, how many Catholics live their faith as they should compared to Evangelicals and other Protestants?

God Bless and Thank You
Click to expand...
In addition to what everyone else has said, there is always the maddening double standard of how disciples are counted on both sides of the Protesto-Catholic divide. If you say that such and such Protestant is living an immoral life, the retort is, “he’s not really a Christian.” When a Catholic lives a bad life, he a shining beacon of the best Catholics can hope for.

I know many immoral Protestants. It’s just that the good Protestants don’t count them among their flock.
 
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John_Henry:
In addition to what everyone else has said, there is always the maddening double standard of how disciples are counted on both sides of the Protesto-Catholic divide. If you say that such and such Protestant is living an immoral life, the retort is, “he’s not really a Christian.” When a Catholic lives a bad life, he a shining beacon of the best Catholics can hope for.

I know many immoral Protestants. It’s just that the good Protestants don’t count them among their flock.
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This is very true, which is why Protestants/Evangelicals tend to bury or deny serious sin, no one wants to be discounted as not truly belonging to the flock. It creates a disconnect concerning sin, repentance and so on. It’s easier to pretend its not there and suffer in silence than face the possible consequence of being labeled as not having had a true conversion to Christ to begin with.
 
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mikeledes:
One of the arguments used against the Catholic Church that really perturbs me is the immoral behavior of many of its clergy and laity throughout history. Not only the immorality of the Renaissance popes, but the Crusades, the Inquisition, African slavery (i.e. the Catholic Portugese and Spaniards), and the recent sex scandals of the clergy. If the Catholic Church is the True Faith, and I believe it is, why all this immorality? Shouldn’t the Church of God be a shining example of Christian morality? When people point this out to me, its very hard for me to respond. How can I convince people that the Catholic Church is the true church when it has a committed many highly questionable acts? Even today, how many Catholics live their faith as they should compared to Evangelicals and other Protestants?

God Bless and Thank You
Click to expand...
Wouldn’t you have thought that one of Jesus’ own Apostles would have been above reproach? Yet one of them actually betrayed Him, didn’t he? How much more unscrupulous can you get than that?

Didn’t Peter himself deny his own Savior who he had proclaimed as such? Why, if Peter believed Jesus was God, did he deny Him at all? Why did he begin to sink when Jesus called him to step out of the boat onto the water? Because men have the tendency to sin - it’s called concupiscience. Men can never be God. They should strive to be more like God but that is a very long, hard, treacherous road, isn’t it?

The people involved in Christianity never claimed to be impeccible or perfect. They only claimed to be sinners. Why is it that ALL clergy - no matter the denomination - are expected to be impervious to the evil? Men are just that - men. They are not God.
I do agree that they should maybe try harder or have more experience at it than the rest of us but in the end, they are just men and men sin.

Your answer should be that - All men are sinners and nothing more.
 
The righteousness of the NON-Catholic communities is much over-stated.

I grew up with the Jehovah’s Witnesses, who on the surface look like a righteous bunch. Many of them ARE devout people.
But even so, they practice divorce and remarriage (if one party “fornicated”, remarriage after divorce is okay with them), contrary to the teaching of Christ. They practice artificial birth control. While masturbation is discouraged by them, it isn’t considered a mortal sin by them, either. Moreover, they really believe that as members of the Watchtower Society, they are really better than everybody else. You should hear them at their get-togethers after the meetings, blanketly condemning other Christian groups to everlasting damnation at Armageddon, and pointing out everyone else’s faults while never mentioning their own. THAT TOO is deadly sin, that of PRIDE and ARROGANCE.

So, just because a non Catholic group looks, on the surface, to be “holier” than the Catholic church, doesn’t really make it so.

Love,
Jaypeeto3
 
There’s a saying I’ve heard that I like: " Don’t leave Peter because of Judas." There will always be sinners, even in places of authority (like Judas), but that does not mean that everything is corrupt - it means that, miraculously, God deals with “jars of clay” to do His work on earth.

Only one out of the twelve disciples stayed with Jesus’ mother at the foot of the cross.

Even in the OT, when Moses went up the mountain to receive the ten commandments, the priest Aaron panicked and fashioned a golden calf and instructed the people to worship it!!

Satan will strike fiercely at the Church that Jesus created. Jesus said that the gates of hell would not prevail over the Church. Satan is working his hardest to prove Jesus wrong. Satan will not prevail - we are people of faith, and we’ve read the end of the book! The Evil One certainly has inflicted a great deal of damage in the last century - but there were more Christian martyrs in the 20th century that in the first nineteen combined. We need to continue praying for faith and purity.
 
It seems that everyone else has said enough, there is nothing that I can add to this, except to comment that anyone who claims that the Catholic Church is somehow not the Church that Jesus founded based on whatever scandal they choose to cite, needs to go back and read their Bible again, because they completely glanced over some very important parts of it.
 
Our righteousness is as filthy rags. Not our sin, but our righteousness. Anyone, even a Pope, who sees himself as being morally above the common junkie or sneak thief looks like garbage to God. Pharasees, ancient or modern, often feel entitled to their debauchery as they rail against those who do the same but without status.

A sinner can repent but what does a reputed Holy Man do? I give Jimmy Swaggart some credit. In my memory, he is the only one of this sort that actually said he was sorry where all could see him. I understand that he later relapsed, but that is not uncommon. I don’t think I am alone when I say that I still commit some of the same sins that I did as a kid.

It should be no surprise to anyone that scandal follows pride.
 
Thanks everyone. I’m also disheartened by the lack of enthusiasm for their religion that I find among so many Catholics. I have Catholic friends who go to Protestant churches because they are more interesting and “friendlier”. They seem to care about every member, whereas Catholic churches can come across as being “cold”. Well, at least that’s what people tell me.
 
I have also heard the same thing; that the Catholic Church is “impersonal”. That may seem to be true on the surface, but it is important to remember that the Catholic Church only seems that way because the emphasis is that our spiritual growth does not stop when we “find Jesus” and develop the “personal relationship with Him” that are so centric to Protestant traditions. Yes, that is certainly important, but as Catholics we are called to something Higher. We are called to join our “personal relationship with Jesus” to everyone elses, and become members of “the Body of Christ”. By joining our personal relationships with Jesus together we form the Church, and I think it is extremely important to not neglect the community our Lord calls us to be a part of. Personally, once I stopped focusing on “me” and my own personal gratification as an objective of worship, and started focusing on our Lord, and all that it means to participate in the Mass, Mass itself suddenly seemed so much more rewarding. As Catholics, we do not attend Mass to gratify ourselves, but to give glory to God in union with the whole Church, on earth, in purgatory, and in Heaven.
 
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