Catholic Church and Martin Luther

[1ke]

So did Joan of Arc, I believe.

This is not accurate. Joan of Arc was not excommunicated.

Meister Eckhart recently had his excommunication lifted by Rome.

Eckhart was never excommunicated.

Then there was the case of Savonarola and others.

Savonarola has not had any excommunication “lifted.”

Excommunication is a penalty imposed upon a living person. Once they have died, an excommunication cannot be “lifted.”

So have Traditionalist Catholics.

Thusfar, you have not given any actual examples supporting your case.

 

[1ke]

Is Galileo still excommunicated?

Galileo was not excommunicated.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

This is not accurate. Joan of Arc was not excommunicated.

Eckhart was never excommunicated.

Savonarola has not had any excommunication “lifted.”

Excommunication is a penalty imposed upon a living person. Once they have died, an excommunication cannot be “lifted.”

Thusfar, you have not given any actual examples supporting your case.

Well, you have not done your research.

Joan of Arc died excommunicated - a church review later determined that it was invalid and this was the only way her canonization could proceed. So her excommunication was indeed lifted after she had died.

Savonarola had his excommunication lifted on the day he died - documents discovered by the society promoting his canonization have demonstrated this. Eckhart was also excommunicated (so was Thomas Aquinas at one point).

As for the lifting of excommunications after people have died - the pope of Rome does have this power. An excommunication is not an infallible statement.

Unless you can show otherwise, you are completely wrong on all these scores, Friend in Christ!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Galileo was not excommunicated.

Correct, he was only condemned by the Inquisition. The Catholic Church has lifted that condemnation in modern times.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

A comment on Luther’s excommunication:

International expert on church unity, Rev Günther Gassmann, a German Lutheran theologian, has urged the Catholic Church to declare officially that its excommunication of Martin Luther no longer applies.

Such a statement, “in these ecumenically less exciting times … would be a remarkable step and a sign of hope and encouragement,” said Rev Günther Gassmann, who was director of the World Council of Churches’ Faith and Order Commission from 1984 to 1995, according to an Ekklesia report.

Luther trained as a Catholic monk, but was excommunicated by the Catholic Church in 1521 after refusing to retract teachings the Church judged to be heretical.

In a March 19 lecture in Rome, Gassmann said that a joint Lutheran-Catholic statement published in 1983 to mark the 500th anniversary of Luther’s birth had sought to elaborate a common position on the work and legacy of the reformer.

“Luther, a major symbol and personification during 400 years of the past Catholic-Lutheran conflict and division, is now seen as a common teacher,” Gassmann noted, at the Centro Pro Unione, an ecumenical research centre in the Italian capital.

He urged the Catholic Church to receive officially, “this changed evaluation of Martin Luther.”

In 2008, the Vatican’s top official for Christian unity, Cardinal Walter Kasper, encouraged Catholics to read Luther’s hymns, which he declared were “full of spiritual power”, and his commentaries on the Bible.

“One will then discover a Luther who is full of the power of faith, whom one cannot simply make Catholic, whom we find provoking and even alien in many respects, but from whom even Catholics can learn,” said Kasper, president of the Pontifical Council for Promoting Christian Unity since 2001.

Gassmann presented an overview of the results of Catholic-Lutheran dialogue from 1965 to 2005. He praised the 1999 signing by the Catholic Church and the Lutheran World Federation of a Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification as a “unique” event.

This represented, he said, “an agreement concerning the most fundamental theological difference between Catholics and Lutherans at the time of the Reformation and ever since.”

It was the first, and so far only, time that the Catholic Church and one of its dialogue partners have officially confirmed the results of a bilateral dialogue, Gassmann added.

Gassmann noted that Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, had been involved in the latter stage of talks that led to the signing of the declaration.

SOURCE

Catholic Church called on to revoke Luther’s excommunication (Ekklesia)

 

[1ke]

Joan of Arc died excommunicated - a church review later determined that it was invalid and this was the only way her canonization could proceed. So her excommunication was indeed lifted after she had died.

This is not accurate. Joan of Arc was not excommunicated. A canonical trial is not the same as excommunication.

Savonarola had his excommunication lifted on the day he died - documents discovered by the society promoting his canonization have demonstrated this. Eckhart was also excommunicated (so was Thomas Aquinas at one point).

Savonarola I am not as familiar with, but it is my understanding that, again, he was tried and convicted on charges of heresy, sedition, etc. It is my understanding that (at least according to those who are in favor of a canonization cause) there is some question as to the legality of the tribunal proceedings at the local level.

Eckhart was NOT excommunicated. He died in communion with the Church. Some of his writings were condemned.

And, Thomas Aquinas was most certainly NOT excommunicated.

I think maybe you misunderstand what excommunication is or are confusing it with something else.

As for the lifting of excommunications after people have died - the pope of Rome does have this power. An excommunication is not an infallible statement.

No, it is a canonical penalty. And, as such, it ceases upon the death of the individual.

Unless you can show otherwise, you are completely wrong on all these scores, Friend in Christ!

It is incumbent upon you to produce both the documents of excommunication and documents rescinding them. It is you who have made these wild assertions without any documentation.

 

[FCCopleston]

I think we should be more concerned about what he actually did. What his ideology has done. he created a whole generation of rebellious men against the Church Jesus found.

Many a man has used the credibility of a good name to lend support for his own depraved purposes (perhaps no Name has been more abused than that of our Savior, Jesus Christ). That is to say, simply because there have been many who have used Luther’s name for their own rebellious ends does not necessarily entail Luther’s approval of their cause.

It is without question that Luther’s attempt to reform the Church was utilized by the more fanatical elements of the reformation for their own fanatical ends. No one was more aware of this than Luther.

Rather than condemning the man outright as a rebellious hater of the Church, we ought to spend some time reading him and understanding his reasons for reform. I think that if you actually read some of Luther’s works (or Philip Melancthon’s, or Martin Chemnitz’) you would be both impressed and surprised to find the amount of doctrinal solidarity that exists between him and Rome.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

 

[RyanBlack]

Eckhart was NOT excommunicated. He died in communion with the Church. Some of his writings were condemned.

Well, Franz Pfeiffer, in the introduction to Works of Meister Eckhart, does claim that he was excommunicated. However, I do believe that he is mistaken. In the Eckhart entry in the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, nothing about excommunication is mentioned. It does state that some of Eckhart’s teaching were condemned as heretical by Pope John XXII after Eckhart’s death. It also states that the pope declared that Eckhart had recanted his heretical views prior to his death.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Well, Franz Pfeiffer, in the introduction to Works of Meister Eckhart, does claim that he was excommunicated. However, I do believe that he is mistaken. In the Eckhart entry in the Oxford Dictionary of the Christian Church, nothing about excommunication is mentioned. It does state that some of Eckhart’s teaching were condemned as heretical by Pope John XXII after Eckhart’s death. It also states that the pope declared that Eckhart had recanted his heretical views prior to his death.

This is very true! Aquinas was excommunicated for a period during his life, and this was later lifted (whilst he lived). The same is true of Eckhart and Savonarola and others.

As to how to qualify Joan of Arc’s sentencing for witchcraft etc., this is commonly called “excommunication.”

If one may counterdistinguish various understandings of “excommunication” “condemnation” and the like - I’m all ears!

And Eckhart’s views that were condemned for heresy did indeed implicate him in the heresy . It was this that Rome lifted.

The Orthodox St Gregory Palamas was branded a “Quietist” by Rome and RC theologians, but in 1973, Rome acknowledged Palamas’ sanctity and he was entered on the Roman Calendar.

It is not my intention here to engage in a war of papal bulls. I do not have the time to look up such to affirm what can be easily Googled for common general knowledge.

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Many a man has used the credibility of a good name to lend support for his own depraved purposes (perhaps no Name has been more abused than that of our Savior, Jesus Christ). That is to say, simply because there have been many who have used Luther’s name for their own rebellious ends does not necessarily entail Luther’s approval of their cause.

It is without question that Luther’s attempt to reform the Church was utilized by the more fanatical elements of the reformation for their own fanatical ends. No one was more aware of this than Luther.

Rather than condemning the man outright as a rebellious hater of the Church, we ought to spend some time reading him and understanding his reasons for reform. I think that if you actually read some of Luther’s works (or Philip Melancthon’s, or Martin Chemnitz’) you would be both impressed and surprised to find the amount of doctrinal solidarity that exists between him and Rome.

In Christ,
FCCopleston

This is very true and erudite!

And if today’s Lutherans followed the example of Martin Luther in his faith and devotional life - they really would be indistinguishable from Catholics, including Luther’s Marian devotion, as you have said!

Alex

 

[Alexander_Roman]

This is not accurate. Joan of Arc was not excommunicated. A canonical trial is not the same as excommunication.

Savonarola I am not as familiar with, but it is my understanding that, again, he was tried and convicted on charges of heresy, sedition, etc. It is my understanding that (at least according to those who are in favor of a canonization cause) there is some question as to the legality of the tribunal proceedings at the local level.

Eckhart was NOT excommunicated. He died in communion with the Church. Some of his writings were condemned.

And, Thomas Aquinas was most certainly NOT excommunicated.

I think maybe you misunderstand what excommunication is or are confusing it with something else.

No, it is a canonical penalty. And, as such, it ceases upon the death of the individual.

It is incumbent upon you to produce both the documents of excommunication and documents rescinding them. It is you who have made these wild assertions without any documentation.

You raise a good point about excommunication re: what happens upon the death of the individual. If a person dies in an excommunicated state, they cannot be canonized. Joan of Arc was excommunicated not by Rome, but locally, to be sure. She was burned in that state as well. It was the Church that later cancelled “whatever you wish to call it” that happened to her at her trial. The Church had to do it in order to proceed with her Cause.

As for the documents of excommunication of the persons mentioned, I will be sure to look them up the next time I’m at the Vatican . . .

Alex

 

[1ke]

This is very true! Aquinas was excommunicated for a period during his life, and this was later lifted (whilst he lived).

Proof please.

As to how to qualify Joan of Arc’s sentencing for witchcraft etc., this is commonly called “excommunication.”

This is NOT accurate. You clearly don’t understand what excommunication is.

 

[Alexander_Roman]

Proof please.

This is NOT accurate. You clearly don’t understand what excommunication is.

Could you explain and teach me then? I don’t understand a lot of things!

So what was that matter in 1277 when the Bishops of Paris and Oxford condemned some of Aquinas’ teachings?

Alex

 

[onenow1]

Martin Luther looked around and saw the damage that Sola Scriptura and ‘private interpretation’ of Holy Scripture was doing to his ‘reformation’, and made the following remarks…
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.

Let’s hope he repented in the end.

God Bless All

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

There is no evidence that he repented whatsoever. His last years and months were more anti-papal and pro-evangelical Christianity more than he ever was. Luther didn’t make this statement as a “what have I done!!?” type of sentiment Catholics would like it to say but rather he was disappointed that so many Christians who had started off by making the right decision (in his mind) to leave Catholicism made poor choices in going in Zwinglian directions or Reformed type theology (even though Calvin wasn’t a contemporary there were Calvinist type overtones already) and Anabaptist thinking, etc. He felt Lutheranism was reformed Christianity and lamented that so many made the poor choice, in his opinion, of not following his lead. He was sad that there was chaos, but he wasn’t regretful.

Martin Luther looked around and saw the damage that Sola Scriptura and ‘private interpretation’ of Holy Scripture was doing to his ‘reformation’, and made the following remarks…
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.

Let’s hope he repented in the end.

God Bless All

 

[1ke]

So what was that matter in 1277 when the Bishops of Paris and Oxford condemned some of Aquinas’ teachings?

It was **not **excommunication or anything approaching excommunication. Not even censure.

That sort of thing happens all the time in academia. Theologians write papers, books, treastises, etc. Sometimes some part of what they have written is not approved by the local ordinary or some other body. It may be the way something is worded, or understood/misunderstood, etc. It may be that an entire proposition is rejected, or some part of it, etc. This is, basically, no big deal.

It seems in the condemnations of 1277 it was much ado about nothing, since the Bishop of Paris’s assessment of the matter did not stick.

Aquinas never had any sort of censure, ecclesial trial, condemnation, excommunication, etc.

 

[MartinJordan]

Can anyone tell me what happened to ML’s kids and their progeny? Just wondering.

MJ

 

[joe370]

Actually she was declared innocent in 1456. Pope Benedict XV canonized Joan on 16 May 1920. As Saint Joan of Arc, she has become one of the most popular saints of the Roman Catholic Church. The CC is comprised of sinful people just like an other church and therefore is far from perfect, just as Martin Luther was; ML made many mistakes just as many priests and bishops in the CC have, and still do, but the question is: do we leave the CC when all looks hopeless and lost, or do we trust in the providence of almighty God when it comes to His church, no matter how long it takes? Francis of Assisi saw the same sort of corruption in his day, but he still deferred to the church, thereby trusting in Gods providence, and just look at the difference he made in Jesus’ church.

So did Joan of Arc, I believe.

Meister Eckhart recently had his excommunication lifted by Rome. Then there was the case of Savonarola and others.

So have Traditionalist Catholics.

FYI.

Alex

 

[MartinJordan]

Francis of Assisi saw the same sort of corruption in his day, but he still deferred to the church, thereby trusting in Gods providence, and just look at the difference he made in Jesus’ church.

How about St. Charles Borromeo? He was hated even by the Catholic clergy, yet stood his ground and fought for the Church.

MJ

 

[IowaJay]

What is the Catholic Churches views toward Martin Luther today?

I think Pope John Paul II summed up current the current attitude nicely in 1983 on the occasion of Luther’s 500th birthday. I couldn’t find an official English translation of this letter written in German, so this is the google translation of the letter found here:

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/letters/1983/documents/hf_jp-ii_let_19831031_card-willebrands_ge.html

Not a perfect translation, but you can get the gist of it.

MESSAGE OF JOHN PAUL II
TO CARD. Johannes Willebrands,
PRESIDENT OF THE SECRETARIAT FOR CHRISTIAN UNITY

My venerable brother
Johannes Cardinal Willebrands
President of the Secretariat for Christian Unity

On 10 November 1983 marks the 500th Birthday of Dr. Martin Luther in Eisleben. Many Christians, particularly Evangelical-Lutheran confession, remember this occasion that theologians who essentially on the threshold of modern times to the profound changes in the ecclesiastical and secular reality of the West contributed. Our world is still experiencing its history thickness.

For the Catholic Church is named Martin Luther through the centuries linked the memory of a painful time, but especially the great knowledge about the beginning of church divisions. The 500th Birthday of Martin Luther will therefore be an opportunity for us to think in truth and charity of the historic events of the Reformation. Straight from the temporal distance out to be historical processes often show better and understand.

Well-known personalities and bodies in the Lutheran Christians have called for it to shape the Luther Memorial Year in true ecumenical spirit and to enable Martin Luther especially in a way to word that should be beneficial for the unity of Christians. I welcome this intention and accept it as a fraternal invitation for a common effort both to a deeper and more perfect picture of the historical events and a critical examination of the manifold heritage of Luther.

In fact, the scientific efforts of Protestant and Catholic researchers who meet in their results now largely to a more complete and nuanced picture of the personality of Luther as well as the complex web of historical circumstances in society, politics and church of the first half of the 16. Century out. Convincing become visible here is the deep religiosity of Luther, who was driven by a burning passion for the question of eternal salvation. It has become clear, however even that can break the unity of the church or a lack of understanding on the part of shepherds of the Catholic Church has attributed to a lack of understanding of the true Catholicism on the part of Luther’s own, so such a decision may have been. The decisions to which it was submitted, deeper. At issue is the relationship between faith and tradition were fundamental questions of legal interpretation and appropriation of the Christian faith in the game, that church-dividing effect can not be overcome merely by historical understanding.

Thus, in view of Martin Luther and in the quest for reunification of a dual effort required. First, the departure of careful historical work is important. The point is, by unbiased, winning only by the search for truth led research a fair picture of the reformer as the whole era of the Reformation and the acting in its people. Where guilt is, it must be recognized, regardless of which side they take, where controversy has distorted the view, it must be corrected, again regardless of to which side it is. In this case we can not direct the intention of raising us to be judges of the story, but the goal should be alone, to better identify and thus be truly viable. Only in such a position that makes the cleaning of the truth without reservation, we can find a common understanding of what was then, and acquire new starting points for the interview today.

This is the second thing is necessary: the historical clarification, turning to the former in his next acting role, must go hand in hand with the dialogue of faith, in the here and now we are looking for unity. He finds its firm foundation in what unites us in accordance with the Lutheran confessions, even after the separation: in the words of Scripture, the creeds, the councils of the old church. I trust that the second unit of the Secretariat under your direction, my dear Lord Cardinal, that in Germany even before the Vatican Council, with great seriousness ongoing dialogue continues in the spirit, which corresponds to its basics: in fidelity to the gift of faith, repentance and willingness members learning involves.

In the adoring humility before the mystery of divine providence and the awesome last manned on what the Spirit of God teaches us today in the memory of the events of the Reformation, the Church seeks to move on the edge of their love and the unity of all reach out which bear the name of Jesus Christ as baptized. I accompany the work of its secretariat and all ecumenical efforts for the great cause of unity of all Christians with my special prayer and blessing.

From the Vatican, on 31 October 1983

IOANNES PAULUS PP. II