Catholic Church Hypocrisy?

  • Thread starter Thread starter dominikus28
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
D

dominikus28

Guest
In the OT, there is inquisition and rooting out of heresy, punishing heretics, etc. so from that I know that the Catholic inquisitions themselves were justified.

But, can’t the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the early times of Christianity been seen as this justified inquisition? In OT, God commands that the Jews root out heresy, so isn’t that what the Jewish authorities were basically doing with the Christians (they were heretics from their point of view)?

Then Christians in the middle ages did the same thing to heretics and Jews - isn’t this hypocrisy? I know that the Catholic religion is right, so therefore they are justified, but is there an objective way of justifying this? I mean, if you hold that Judaism is the one true faith, you will disagree with justifications for Catholic inquisitions, so it is a subjective justification. I support that the Church fought heresy like this, but my problem is justifying it to people who ask me about it (or accuse the church or hypocrisy).

Thanks
 
The Jews rejected Jesus and handed him over to be crucified. Jesus claimed to be the Truth, the only Way. Jesus proclaimed Peter to be the head of His Church, which survives to this day as the Catholic Church. What hypocrisy do you refer to?
 
The Jews rejected Jesus and handed him over to be crucified. Jesus claimed to be the Truth, the only Way. Jesus proclaimed Peter to be the head of His Church, which survives to this day as the Catholic Church. What hypocrisy do you refer to?
Sorry, I find it hard to communicate. What I mean, is that they could use the same argument and say that ‘we are the truth, and Jesus was just a liar’.

Now in today’s secular society, atheists, jews and muslims call Christendom an oppressive society because it persecuted heretics and non-Catholics.

I am just trying to justify it to myself. Maybe this will be a simpler question: who exactly was considered a heretic? I always thought that a heretic is someone who claims to be Catholic and yet rejects Catholic teaching publicly (by going and preaching dissent) - an example of this might be, a pro-choice Catholic. If you take this definition, then I find it perfectly justified if a Catholic country would make heresy a crime and enforce keeping such people from preaching, because effectively, what they are doing is lying in public - they claim to be Catholic and then preach what is anti-Catholic - that is a lie. I think if a person was sent to jail for lying in public, there is nothing wrong with that.

On the other hand, I have heard that Hilaire Belloc refers to islam as a heresy, and that some say protestantism is a heresy. I have heard that Jews, muslims, protestants were persecuted under the inquisition, but this doesnt make sense to me because how can you be a heretic if you are a completely different religion?

So I imagine that during times of the inquisition, if you claim to be Catholic, that puts you under the jurisdiction of the Catholic Church, and if you then preach contrary to the faith, you must either admit that you are not Catholic or face the charge of heresy.

So my question is basically this: Is that how the jurisdiction of the Church worked? If you were a Protestant and therefore did not claim to be Catholic, could the Church try you under their courts or were you out of their jurisdiction because you werent Catholic?

Sorry about being complicated :o
If
 
In the OT, there is inquisition and rooting out of heresy, punishing heretics, etc. so from that I know that the Catholic inquisitions themselves were justified.

But, can’t the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the early times of Christianity been seen as this justified inquisition? In OT, God commands that the Jews root out heresy, so isn’t that what the Jewish authorities were basically doing with the Christians (they were heretics from their point of view)?

Then Christians in the middle ages did the same thing to heretics and Jews - isn’t this hypocrisy? I know that the Catholic religion is right, so therefore they are justified, but is there an objective way of justifying this? I mean, if you hold that Judaism is the one true faith, you will disagree with justifications for Catholic inquisitions, so it is a subjective justification. I support that the Church fought heresy like this, but my problem is justifying it to people who ask me about it (or accuse the church or hypocrisy).

Thanks
I disagree with your position that is is justifiable for the Church and those representing Christ to act in unjust and sinful ways because the faith they proclaim is true. The faith may indeed be true, and I believe it is, but that does not justify words and actions which undermine the very faith we claim. I believe there have been times in the Church’s history when the Church, as represented by some of her leaders, has not fully lived out the truth it proclaims. I do not wish to justify this sort of hypocrisy, unless it is merely to point out that the Church is led by human persons and all of us are subject to sin. This does not make the sin justified, but rather calls all of us to greater repentence and grace to avoid further sin. As a Church which has often been unjustifiably persecuted, we should have greater caution about persecuting others, and when we realize that we have persecuted others (most terribly in the name of our Lord), then as followers of Christ we should feel compelled to cry out in sorrow and seek forgiveness from those we have persecuted and offer amends for our sinfulness.
 
If u r a christian live as Christ did. It is true with everyone and everywhere. Do think we must pay more attention on the inner meaning of the Bible. When church is taken as a medium of imparting peace, it must be seen like that. Church is not only a structure and rituals do not only present a sponsored show. It depends on yr outlook and the administration of the concerned church.
Inner politics, money game, etc has become common. Money is paid to get higher posts. Now, if u see only one side picture is not clear. Devotees are also to be blamed. Articles in Helium.com has exposed Hippocratic side, and not only this scores of material is available but only criticism won’t help.
 
As to your original question, the reason the Jews were wrong to persecute Chrisitans was that Christ came for them; He fulfilled the prophecies that God had given the Jews for centuries, He performed miracles, He spoke with authority. It’s sort of like the adage Ignorance of the law is no excuse–the Jews should have known that Christ was the Messiah, and in fact, the Jews welcomed Him with palm leaves and hosannahs when He entered Jerusalem just a few days before they condemned Him to death.

As to burning heretics, in a Catholic society heresy disturbs the social order as well as potentially causing souls to be lost to the fires of hell. The Church did not burn the heretics, the State did as heresy was seen to be as bad as treason in a Catholic nation

And Belloc believed that Mohammed got his ideas from Judaism and Christianity, so he saw Islam as a heresy, not an entirely New or different religion like Hinduism would be.
 
In the OT, there is inquisition and rooting out of heresy, punishing heretics, etc. so from that I know that the Catholic inquisitions themselves were justified.

But, can’t the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the early times of Christianity been seen as this justified inquisition? In OT, God commands that the Jews root out heresy, so isn’t that what the Jewish authorities were basically doing with the Christians (they were heretics from their point of view)?

Then Christians in the middle ages did the same thing to heretics and Jews - isn’t this hypocrisy? I know that the Catholic religion is right, so therefore they are justified, but is there an objective way of justifying this? I mean, if you hold that Judaism is the one true faith, you will disagree with justifications for Catholic inquisitions, so it is a subjective justification. I support that the Church fought heresy like this, but my problem is justifying it to people who ask me about it (or accuse the church or hypocrisy).

Thanks
The Romans fed Christians to the lions. The Roman Christians were involved in the persecution and rejection of the original Christians - the Ebionites. The Roman Christians and the Arian Christians were involved in mutual infighting resulting in the death of tens of thousands of Christians on both sides until the Roman Christians finally gained the upper hand, and political power, in the fourth century of the common era. Almost immediately they began promulgating laws aimed against the Jews.

Between 66 c.e - 135 c.e the Jews were involved in uprisings against Rome which led to the deaths of one third of the Jewish people. Whenever I ask about the extent of persecution by Jews of Christians (what period? how many Christians were killed? what are the sources for information of these persecutions and do they include non Christian sources? Are the laws and acts against the Jews a result of “revenge” for these “'persecutions”? If so, are acts of revenge compatible with Catholicism and at what point, if ever, is the “account” settled?) I never receive a clear authoritative answer. We Jews are of course bound by Torah and God’s commandments (see Vayikra/Leviticus 19:17 - 18 which obligates us to not hate or take revenge or bear a grudge and to love your fellow as yourself).

From “Jews and Judaism” Original Catholic Encyclopedia

"The obligation of wearing a distinguishing badge was of course obnoxious to the Jews. At the same time, Church authorities deemed its injunction necessary to prevent effectively moral offenses between Jews and Christian women. The decrees forbidding the Jews from appearing in public at Easter-tide may be justified on the ground that some of them mocked at the Christian processions at that time; those against baptized Jews retaining distinctly Jewish customs find their ready explanation in the necessity for the Church to maintain the purity of the Faith in its members, while those forbidding the Jews from molesting converts to Christianity are no less naturally explained by the desire of doing away with a manifest obstacle to future conversions.

It was for the laudable reason of protecting social morality and securing the maintenance of the Christian Faith, that canonical decrees were framed and repeatedly enforced against free and constant intercourse between Christians and Jews, against, for instance, bathing, living, etc., with Jews. To some extent, likewise, these were the reasons for the institution of the Ghetto or confinement of the Jews to a special quarter, for the prohibition of the Jews from exercising medicine, or other professions. The inhibition of intermarriage between Jews and Christians, which is yet in vigor, is clearly justified by reason of the obvious danger for the faith of the Christian party and for the spiritual welfare of the children born of such alliances. With regard to the special legislation against printing, circulating, etc., the Talmud, there was the particular grievance that the Talmud contained at the time scurrilous attacks upon Jesus and the Christians (cf. Pick, “The Personality of Jesus in the Talmud” in the “Monist”, January, 1910), and the permanent reason that “that extraordinary compilation, with much that is grave and noble, contains also so many puerilities, immoral precepts, and anti-social maxims, that Christian courts may well have deemed it right to resort to stringent measures to prevent Christians from being seduced into adhesion to a system so preposterous” (Catholic Dictionary, 484).

History proves indeed that church authorities exercised at times considerable pressure upon the Jews to promote their conversion;"

 
In the OT, there is inquisition and rooting out of heresy, punishing heretics, etc. so from that I know that the Catholic inquisitions themselves were justified.

But, can’t the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the early times of Christianity been seen as this justified inquisition? In OT, God commands that the Jews root out heresy, so isn’t that what the Jewish authorities were basically doing with the Christians (they were heretics from their point of view)?

Then Christians in the middle ages did the same thing to heretics and Jews - isn’t this hypocrisy? I know that the Catholic religion is right, so therefore they are justified, but is there an objective way of justifying this? I mean, if you hold that Judaism is the one true faith, you will disagree with justifications for Catholic inquisitions, so it is a subjective justification. I support that the Church fought heresy like this, but my problem is justifying it to people who ask me about it (or accuse the church or hypocrisy).

Thanks
Actually, it wasn’t the Church that burned them, it was the governments. so while the church was closely connected to the governments of many countries in euro land, it wasn’t performing the executions. I think you are confusing the individuals with the Church (organization).

Joey. 🙂
 
If the teaching of heretics targeted by the inquisition were validated by making the blind see, the lame walk, lepers made clean, the deaf hear, the dead rise again, and an abundance of other miracles then a comparison might be possible.
 
too much bites and bricks on the basis of history.
One more dimension. Bible is one, Jesus is one why churches r spreading feeling of hatred towards each another. Children of the members of Church A, marries with the children of the members of church B. nothing wrong in it. But trustee members r agitated. Even fathers oppose this step openly. They don’t hesitate in writing articles in papers.It is also hypocrisy.
 
In the OT, there is inquisition and rooting out of heresy, punishing heretics, etc. so from that I know that the Catholic inquisitions themselves were justified.

But, can’t the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the early times of Christianity been seen as this justified inquisition? In OT, God commands that the Jews root out heresy, so isn’t that what the Jewish authorities were basically doing with the Christians (they were heretics from their point of view)?

Then Christians in the middle ages did the same thing to heretics and Jews - isn’t this hypocrisy? I know that the Catholic religion is right, so therefore they are justified, but is there an objective way of justifying this? I mean, if you hold that Judaism is the one true faith, you will disagree with justifications for Catholic inquisitions, so it is a subjective justification. I support that the Church fought heresy like this, but my problem is justifying it to people who ask me about it (or accuse the church or hypocrisy).

Thanks
There is no good reason to shy away from the fact that members of the Catholic Church have committed autrocities. It is better to get the facts straight, however. According to some “histories” of the Church more people were killed than actually lived in Europe at the time. The truth is that there were closer to 2,000 killed over approximately a 400 year period, and many of those were at the hands of the local governments. Compare this to the protestants in Germany who burned over 80,000 women who had been accused of being witches. The point is, we should never judge a religion based upon those who failed in their practice of that religion.
 
Remember the Church is made up of humans and all are sinners. Christ, who is the head of the Church is the only one Who alone is pure and without sin.
 
In the OT, there is inquisition and rooting out of heresy, punishing heretics, etc. so from that I know that the Catholic inquisitions themselves were justified.

But, can’t the persecution of Christians by the Jews in the early times of Christianity been seen as this justified inquisition? In OT, God commands that the Jews root out heresy, so isn’t that what the Jewish authorities were basically doing with the Christians (they were heretics from their point of view)?

Then Christians in the middle ages did the same thing to heretics and Jews - isn’t this hypocrisy? I know that the Catholic religion is right, so therefore they are justified, but is there an objective way of justifying this? I mean, if you hold that Judaism is the one true faith, you will disagree with justifications for Catholic inquisitions, so it is a subjective justification. I support that the Church fought heresy like this, but my problem is justifying it to people who ask me about it (or accuse the church or hypocrisy).

Thanks
I think that all religions who feel that inquisitions and punishment of others are justified by their scriptures should be fenced in together so they can give each other what they so fully need and richly deserve.

Of course, I’m assuming that this OP is not a joke of some sort, which I hope it is. Anyway, thankfully, we currently live in a world where you can’t go after people with malicious intent based on what they believe. Not legally at least.

“Lord, save us from your followers.”

Your friend
Sufjon
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top