Catholic Church in China

[CivisRomanusSum]

First and foremost, I would like to ask everyone to please pray for our Catholic brothers and sisters in China, who face persecution at the hands of the communist regime. May God bring them to safe pasture and the freedom to worship in accordance to the Magisterium of the Church and in communion with all saints and believers.

Second, I would like to ask of the status of the “official” (that is, government-controlled) Catholic Church in China. Obviously, the government has no authority whatsoever to appoint bishops and ordain priests, or even to interfere in it. I also recall that the clergy who support such an outrage are said to be excommunicated. In this light, are the sacraments of the “official” Church valid? More specifically, if a non-baptized “Catholic”, non-ordained “priest” or non-consecrated “bishop” (all these things done independent of Rome) were to consecrate the bread and wine, do they become the actual Eucharist or do they remain just that. Because if these do not happen then their masses would be invalid (and consequently, idolatrous), yes?

Thank you.

Ave Maria! Ad Majorem Dei Gloriam!

 

[x1980x]

Well, baptisms would be valid, would they not, since all that is required according to RCC doctrine, (if I am correct) is that it be done in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, be done with water, and be done with the intent to baptize?

 

[CivisRomanusSum]

Well yeah, I’m quite sure that baptisms would be valid when done using the trinitarian formula. But I’m more concerned about their masses, especially if they’re done in “pretend consecrations” by fake “bishops” and “priests.” The way China’s government is counterfeiting the Church independent of Rome… it’s just not right…

 

[Catmando]

I think it would depend on whether the priests are ordained by Rome or churned out by government-run seminaries or something along those lines. Assuming they are valid priests, I can’t see why the Mass wouldn’t be valid.

 

[tommcguire]

Speaking of the Catholic Church in China, care must be taken not to make any universal statements. No one statement captures the reality of the Catholic Church in China. My experience with people from China and short visit in 2010 indicates a heroic people who have overcome adversity beyond imagination. Let us continue our prayer and seek to understand not judge.

 

[tommcguire]

I pray that the comments and reflections here will be positive and in support of the Catholics in China. I know it is not good practice to give long quotes, but this one is worth reading for anyone interested in the Catholic Church in China.

ASIA/CHINA- Missionary mandate to 305 lay of the parish of Fu Shun, a sign of the Diocese’s vitality in Liao Ning
Fu Shun (Fides Service) - 305 lay missionaries, divided into 11 groups, of the parish of Fu Shun of the Diocese in Liao Ning, received the missionary mandate by the parish priest on the solemnity of the Pentecost, thus confirming their willingness to be faithful to the pastoral and evangelization service for the next two years.
According to information gathered by Fides, the pastor has given a certificate of the mandate, and the cross to all of the 305 lay, so that they carry out their mission in the ecclesial communities. It is a sign of the Diocese’s vitality in Liao Ning, led by the young Bishop Paul Pei Jun Min, 43 years old, approved by the Holy See and consecrated in 2006. The evangelization, pastoral care and training are top priorities of the diocese. From 5 to 6 July, the diocese has organized a seminar on “Current and future development of the Church in China according to the ecclesiology of the II Vatican Council” to help the priests to know the reality of the Church and the conciliar magisterium.

The parish of Fu Shun, which now belongs to the diocese of Shen Yang, but originally was part of the diocese of Fu Shen, assigned to the Maryknoll missionaries, currently has more than 7,000 faithful. It is a very active community, and all its priests have always given the utmost importance to training and evangelization. According to information provided by the Diocese of Laius Ning, the present diocese was formed in 1983 by grouping the 4 Dioceses of Shen Yang, Ying Kou, Fu Shun and Re He. Today, the diocese is divided into 5 deaneries, has more than one hundred thousand faithful, a Bishop, about ninety priests, two religious diocesan congregations (the Sisters of the Sacred Heart of Mary, with more than one hundred religious women, and the nuns of the Sacred Heart of Jesus , with about seventy nuns), the major seminary of Shen Yang, 5 homes for the elderly, three clinics run by nuns and three diocesan social service centers. (NZ) (Agenzia Fides 27/06/2011)

 

[Luke1983]

Hi folks new to the forum.

I wouldn’t be so worried most of it is just politics. China as a communist country regards religion as serving the country and for the country.

Another element of control for the Chinese Communist Party. The only way that there can be some progress is either one of two things:

1. catholic chinese revolt
2. china becomes democratic and embraces the UN declaration of human rights for real and not as a charade. I.e freedom of expression, speech, cult.

I don’t see China becoming another Russia after perestroika anyday soon. Its economy is too strong. Hence it will continue doing what it does if the masses don’t revolt.

Thats the only way. Otherwise China will continue to ordain priests itself.

Don’t worry about it being idolatrous or not God aint stupid and He certainly isn’t going to send people to hell for things such as this knowing full well about the situation in that country.

Its a political thing between the Holy See and China. In the beginning of Christianity there was no physical church in the Vatican!. Chinese Catholics are suffering what the first Christians were suffering under Rome.

Back then there were no ordained bishops nor priests…and no, people didn’t go to hell because they lacked a bishop who was ordained by the Pope and therefore illegitimately baptised, and said Mass…there were women who did that too!

Don’t let us be silly. God knows best.
Don’t let us regress to phariseism. Its not the law or man made tradition but the heart thats most important.

Think about it this way. Pedofile priests continued in their Ministry even though they committed the worse sin of them all. These priests haven’t committed such a sin. Hence the Mass is legit. No I don’t believe that priests continue being priests if they commit a mortal sin if it works one way it must work the other way too! If a layman/woman who divorces his wife/husband can’t have Communion then it follows that the pedophile priest is in an even worse state than a man/woman who divorces and hence not in Communion.

Transubstantiation occurs nonetheless? Fine it does but it aint thanks to the priest that it happens anyway. Its something which is beyond a priest’s mortal power. Its not the priest who makes the transubstantiation occur! All the priest does is call for it to be in His Name and for the Church. A priest aint God! When you go to confession what the priest does is simply tell you what God has already done i.e forgive you. When we say father to a priest its not because he is. But because he acts like Him. Or should do anyways. A mirror image.

What the Holy See is doing is political. If it doesn’t fight this then every other country will do what China does! It can’t go along with it but it knows full well that the faithful shall not be condemned for something that is beyond their control and is not their fault.
What it does is force laymen to “revolt” or be passive resistant so that something happens i.e the situation goes back to normal.

More often than not excommunications etc are political. The Lutheran Reform didn’t die out like many other heresies and schisms because it had backup from the German feudal Princes who didn’t want to pay taxes to the Church and saw the Reform as a golden egg. I.e political. Then it snowballed. But that was its genesis and where it took its legitimacy.
An occasion to break up ties with Rome and hence stop paying taxes!!!That was all it was to them! And it obviously succeeded! Men make things happen. God lets things happen.

With a bit more compassion from the Church there wouldn’t have been a Reform in the first place…anyway OT.

 

[tommcguire]

The following Press release suggests an alternative to the confrontational way forward for the Catholic Church in China. Jesus was friends with many who were His enemies. His way is a way of love…Love your enemy. This way of friendship is His way.

UCA News - www.ucanews.com

New book tells of old friendship
History repeats itself as trio relate close Italian-Chinese ancestoral bonds from 400 years ago

ucanews.com reporter, Shanghai
China
June 22, 2011

The descendants of two Italian Jesuit missioners to China and a Chinese imperial official have jointly published a book about their ancestors and the friendship they enjoyed over 400 years ago.

The book: The Stories of Our Ancestors, launched in Shanghai on June 19, is the Chinese edition of Un Libro a sei Mani (a book with six hands), originally written in Italian by Paolo Sabbatini, Luigi Ricci and Xu Chengxi.

The ancestors of the three authors were close friends more than four centuries ago: Father Sabatino de Ursis (1575-1620), Father Matteo Ricci (1552-1610) and Paul Xu Guangqi (1562-1633).

The two missioners and Xu worked together conducting astronomical research at the imperial court during the Ming Dynasty. They also worked on the translation of Euclid’s Elements into Chinese.

Xu was the first Catholic convert from Shanghai.

The new book, published by Zhejiang University Press, tells the stories of the three men, highlights their friendship and reveals some of the history of the three families in later generations. The 163-page book also bears witness to long-standing cultural ties between China and Italy.

Xu Chengxi and Paolo Sabbatini, director of the cultural office of the Italian consulate general in Shanghai, were present at the book launch.

They and Luigi Ricci first met each other in China in 2007 and decided to revive the friendship of their ancestors. They wrote the book together to mark the 400th anniversary of Father Ricci’s death in Beijing in 2010.

Shanghai-born artist Tang Muli also exhibited his new oil painting Matteo Ricci and Xu Guangqi at the launch.

The book comes a year after Shanghai diocese began pushing for the beatification of Xu Guangqi and Father Ricci