Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible

[Dan-Man916]

I didn’t accuse anybody of anything. I just asked a question. I’m sorry that you find asking somebody to clarify something he said so offensive, but it seems pretty reasonable to me.

There are didferent ways to ask a question. One can ask with an accusatory tone, or one can ask in a spirit of good-faith.
Your posts demonstrate the former, not the latter.

I’m not Catholic, so I’m already considered suspect by the Catholics here.

As a former evangelical myself, the style with which you post is very familiar to me. It is not centered in common understanding and dialogue. It is centered in accusation and dodging questions that others put forth to you in response.

As i said, your intentions betray your stated reasoning for asking these questions.

 

[Harmony1988]

A false accusation?

You responded to a post which was itself responding to the news report.

Forgive me for not making it crystal clear that you had not bothered to read the report but were **only **responding to a poster, even though that poster was responding to the news report which is the very opening post and explains the title of this thread.

Now would you mind, having made your own little ‘false accusation’ about me, responding to the post about what the Catechism says?

You’ll find it less surprising when you read more of his posts. He does this a lot.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

There are didferent ways to ask a question. One can ask with an accusatory tone, or one can ask in a spirit of good-faith.
Your posts demonstrate the former, not the latter.

As a former evangelical myself, the style with which you post is very familiar to me. It is not centered in common understanding and dialogue. It is centered in accusation and dodging questions put forth to you.

As i said, your intentions betray your stated reasoning for asking these questions.

Sorry you feel that way.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

First, Pastor Jim, I am a SHE, not a he. You may address me as “Ma’am”.

I did not acuse you falsely. You did ‘jump to conclusions’ about what the Catholic Church says. You did respond to a poster who was referencing what the news report said, even if you were not responding to the article itself. You did state, by implication, that ‘the Catholic Church’ according to what ‘the poster said’ was claiming God got some part of the Bible wrong, and you asked what part that was.

Now would you mind not accusing me yourself and please answering the original post which I gave you before the post where I had spoken to Edwin regarding your apparent misinterpration? It was on page 2, before the post to which you took exception. May I please ask why that post was ignored and you have focused on another which in no way ‘falsely accused’ you? May I ask you to respond? Thank you.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Here is the post which you overlooked, Pastor Jim.

See? It is even addressed to you.

I’ll repost so you don’t have to look back.

Dear Pastor Jim:

Just to clear things up for you, neither “The Catholic Church” nor “its hierarchy” nor indeed these bishops have claimed that the Bible is no longer true.

In fact, here is what the Catholic Church officially teaches about the Bible’s truth. It is ‘official’ because it is right there in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.

This is what it says:

105 God is the author of Sacred Scripture. "The divinely revealed realities, which are contained and presented in the text of Sacred Scripture, have been written down under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit."69
"For Holy Mother Church, relying on the faith of the apostolic age, accepts as sacred and canonical the books of the Old and the New Testaments, whole and entire, with all their parts, on the grounds that, written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author, and have been handed on as such to the Church herself."70
106 God inspired the human authors of the sacred books. "To compose the sacred books, God chose certain men who, all the while he employed them in this task, made full use of their own faculties and powers so that, though he acted in them and by them, it was as true authors that they consigned to writing whatever he wanted written, and no more."71 107 **The inspired books teach **the truth. "Since therefore all that the inspired authors or sacred writers affirm should be regarded as affirmed by the Holy Spirit, we must acknowledge that the books of Scripture firmly, faithfully, and without error teach that truth which God, for the sake of our salvation, wished to see confided to the Sacred Scriptures."72

Please feel free to verify it for yourself. Here is the site for the catechism itself–the whole thing. scborromeo.org/ccc.htm

---

 

[geezerbob]

So, which part of the Bible do Catholics believe God got wrong?

If you are having trouble comprehending what this thread is about, I’ll try to help you. The OP asked that if anyone had seen a teaching document supposedly published or to be published by a group of UK bishops.

Nobody believes that God got the Bible wrong. That is an erroneous assumption on your part and typical of how you have been responding in all the threads in which you have partiipated. And you accuse us of setting up strawmen?

I, for one, am tiring of your dishonesty and whining. You are, rightly or wrongly, being treated exactly as you have been treating others. Why don’t you try removing the log from your own eye, sticking with the topics of the threads, stop criticizing others, and see if any fruitful discussions can take place?

 

[daeve]

Brilliant!

I also heard that the bible isn’t a book, its a library.

I’ve always liked it myself. Once in a while, I still feel the affects of Catholic schools.

 

[Dan-Man916]

Why don’t you channel some of your feigned indignation and ask tantum ego why he made false claims about me? Oh, I’m sorry. You only object when non-Catholics ask questions in a way that doesn’t meet your approval. You don’t have time to ask Catholics why they would misrepresent what I said.

Because I’ve seen this schtick before. If you are a minister, this is all going in your file to preach onwhat you perceive are false Catholic doctrines.

This is all an orchestrated attempt to confirm your pre-conecived notions about Catholicism. Since you desire the outcome, your responses are geared to confirm what you already feel is the truth about Catholicism. However, your preceptions aren’t the reality of the situation, and you appear to have no real desire to understand what it is that Catholics believe. If it were, you’d be asking about what is in the Catechism as that is an authoritative resource for Catholic teaching.

So this feigned interest of yours is will let you either feel a false sense of vindication when preaching against Catholicism to your congregation, or writing about it in your church bulliten.

I’ve been an evangelical long enough to see this kind of stuff and what’s behind it. It’s pretty easily recongizable.

 

[peary1]

Catholic Church no longer swears by truth of the Bible
By Ruth Gledhill, Religion Correspondent
THE hierarchy of the Roman Catholic Church has published a teaching document instructing the faithful that some parts of the Bible are not actually true.

The Catholic bishops of England, Wales and Scotland are warning their five million worshippers, as well as any others drawn to the study of scripture, that they should not expect “total accuracy” from the Bible.

“We should not expect to find in Scripture full scientific accuracy or complete historical precision,” they say in The Gift of Scripture.

See link for the rest of the story…

So the Catholic Church now claims the Bible is not true?

First, the statement is not officially from the Vatican. It is from the bishops of the British Isles.
Second, it says explicitly that Scripture is not scientifically accurate as well as historically precise.
Third, nothing in the article notes the fact that, as far as our salvation is concerned, the Bible is inerrant as the Word of God.
Therefore, the Catholic Church does not claim that the bible is not true.

 

[Dan-Man916]

peary,

while everything you said is true, none of it matters when a person’s intent only appears to be to confirm their erroneous opinions about Catholicism.

The goal isn’t to seek understanding of other Christian’s beliefs. The goal is to confirm their preconceived notions about Catholicism, regardless of whether they are erroneous or not.

 

[Harmony1988]

Because I’ve seen this schtick before. If you are a minister, this is all going in your file to preach onwhat you perceive are false Catholic doctrines.

This is all an orchestrated attempt to confirm your pre-conecived notions about Catholicism. Since you desire the outcome, your responses are geared to confirm what you already feel is the truth about Catholicism. However, your preceptions aren’t the reality of the situation, and you appear to have no real desire to understand what it is that Catholics believe. If it were, you’d be asking about what is in the Catechism as that is an authoritative resource for Catholic teaching.

So this feigned interest of yours is will let you either feel a false sense of vindication when preaching against Catholicism to your congregation, or writing about it in your church bulliten.

I’ve been an evangelical long enough to see this kind of stuff and what’s behind it. It’s pretty easily recongizable.

So in the end, these are all probably straw man arguments by him. Ironically, the same thing he has accused me and others of.

In either case, enough excitement for now. I think it’s established now in everyone’s mind, the magesterium has never said the Bible was false or wrong in some bits or anything like that.

 

[Dan-Man916]

harmony,

That’s how I see it.
Honestly, have you ever really seen these types of posts ever be open to hearing what Catholics have to say?

It goes like this:

1. See some claim made somewhere in the media
2. Claim that this is dogma of what Catholics believe.
3. Go to a Catholic discussion board, and ask why Catholics believe in X when the bible says otherwise, thus creating the apparent contradiction between Scripture and Catholic doctrine.
4. Don’t listen to any other Catholic on that discussion board who clarifies what the actual position is and why the initial source is inaccurate.
5. Original poster assumes the veracity of the claim they read somehwere else, but never accepts the clarification offered by the posters they are engaging with.
6. Ignore any reference to the Catechism which has an authoritative value to Catholic doctrines and claim that the Catholic refutation of their misconception constitutes a personal attack on them.

After a few years dealing with posters like these, their strategy becomes about as transparent as glass.

 

[Harmony1988]

harmony,

That’s how I see it.
Honestly, have you ever really seen these types of posts ever be open to hearing what Catholics have to say?

It goes like this:

1. See some claim made somewhere in the media
2. Claim that this is dogma of what Catholics believe.
3. Go to a Catholic discussion board, and ask why Catholics believe in X when the bible says otherwise, thus creating the apparent contradiction between Scripture and Catholic doctrine.
4. Don’t listen to any other Catholic on that discussion board who clarifies what the actual position is and why the initial source is inaccurate.
5. Original poster assumes the veracity of the claim they read somehwere else, but never accepts the clarification offered by the posters they are engaging with.
6. Ignore any reference to the Catechism which has an authoritative value to Catholic doctrines and claim that the Catholic refutation of their misconception constitutes a personal attack on them.

After a few years dealing with posters like these, their strategy becomes about as transparent as glass.

Dan…now that you say it, it does become more apparent. I never really thought of it much, but I think this is something most of us can relate to. It’s everywhere.

I actually copied your 6 points, I will use this later, it’s very accurate =)

 

[Dan-Man916]

Harmony,

Feel free to use it.

I think that it bears posting this one more time.

This is from DEI VERBUM, the Dogmatic Constitution of the Church on Divine Revelation. This constitution has the highest degree of authority in the Catholic Church.

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

This is the OFFICIAL CATHOLIC TEACHING, so there is no misunderstanding:

1. Those divinely revealed realities which are contained and presented in Sacred Scripture have been committed to writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. For holy mother Church, relying on the belief of the Apostles (see John 20:31; 2 Tim. 3:16; 2 Peter 1:19-20, 3:15-16), holds that the books of both the Old and New Testaments in their entirety, with all their parts, are sacred and canonical because written under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, they have God as their author and have been handed on as such to the Church herself.(1) In composing the sacred books, God chose men and while employed by Him (2) they made use of their powers and abilities, so that with Him acting in them and through them, (3) they, as true authors, consigned to writing everything and only those things which He wanted. (4)

Therefore, since everything asserted by the inspired authors or sacred writers must be held to be asserted by the Holy Spirit, it follows that the books of Scripture must be acknowledged as teaching solidly, faithfully and without error that truth which God wanted put into sacred writings (5) for the sake of salvation.

Therefore “all Scripture is divinely inspired and has its use for teaching the truth and refuting error, for reformation of manners and discipline in right living, so that the man who belongs to God may be efficient and equipped for good work of every kind” (2 Tim. 3:16-17, Greek text).

Footnotes:
4. First Vatican Council, Dogmatic Constitution on the Catholic Faith, Chap. 3, “On Faith:” Denzinger 1789 (3008).
5. Second Council of Orange, Canon 7: Denzinger 180 (377); First Vatican Council, loc. cit.: Denzinger 1791 (3010).

 

[adstrinity]

So, which part of the Bible do Catholics believe God got wrong?

1. I am a female. 2. I am a female. 3. I AM A FEMALE!! 4. adstrinity = female 5. None of it. There is a distinction between, “wrong,” and not completely scientifically and historically accurate.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

There is a distinction between, “wrong,” and not completely scientifically and historically accurate.

Could you please explain the difference between God getting something wrong and God being inaccurate?

 

[Contarini]

Could you please explain the difference between God getting something wrong and God being inaccurate?

God is not inaccurate. God inspires human beings to write His Word, and He does not prevent them from being inaccurate in ways that do not interfere with the message God intends to convey.

The purpose of Scripture is not to tell us how many Cushites invaded Judah in the time of King Asa. If the human author said that there were a million when actually there were just a few thousand, that is irrelevant to the purpose for which God inspired 2 Chronicles.

Edwin

 

[geezerbob]

Could you please explain the difference between God getting something wrong and God being inaccurate?

It is adequately addressed in Post 53, which contains the official Catholic position on the accuracy of the Bible.

 

[Pastor_Jim]

God is not inaccurate. God inspires human beings to write His Word, and He does not prevent them from being inaccurate in ways that do not interfere with the message God intends to convey.

I know she said she’s a woman, but why does that mean that she can’t speak for herself?

 

[Contarini]

I know she said she’s a woman, but why does that mean that she can’t speak for herself?

My apologies. I made essentially the same argument in post #31, and I do not expect you to respond to every post individually, especially when they are making similar arguments. Your question addressed my argument as well as adstrinity’s. But I certainly was not trying to prevent her from answering for herself.

Edwin