Catholic Church Pagan? Help please

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I myself am a Catholic firm in my fate. my girlfriend on the other hand is a fallenaway catholic that believes more inteh Baptists teachings.

Now i went with her to her Pastors house to discuss the bible. He himself calls himself “gallican catholic” or something to that effect.

I couldnt help but notice how many times he called the Catholic church pagan and that everything the church does is pagan. From the mass to the priests to the Eucharist. He also keep pointing out things like how much killing the catholic church did.

He said that he doesnt believe Catholics are chirstian. And wow did that get my fired up. Just thore me apart.

I do not believe that it is pagan at all. But could you guys that know more tell me why people believe like that? And what is this “Gallican Catholic” or whatever that he calls himself?
 
Matt_g18 said:
I myself am a Catholic firm in my fate. my girlfriend on the other hand is a fallenaway catholic that believes more inteh Baptists teachings.

Now i went with her to her Pastors house to discuss the bible. He himself calls himself “gallican catholic” or something to that effect.

I couldnt help but notice how many times he called the Catholic church pagan and that everything the church does is pagan. From the mass to the priests to the Eucharist. He also keep pointing out things like how much killing the catholic church did.

He said that he doesnt believe Catholics are chirstian. And wow did that get my fired up. Just thore me apart.

I do not believe that it is pagan at all. But could you guys that know more tell me why people believe like that? And what is this “Gallican Catholic” or whatever that he calls himself?
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I just don’t understand these people. They are always attacking the catholic church to justify their own theology. They attack the church to put themselves on a pedistal.
That isn’t very christian is it?

When I go to mass I NEVER hear the priest attack any other faith.
 
Matt_g18 said:
I myself am a Catholic firm in my fate. my girlfriend on the other hand is a fallenaway catholic that believes more inteh Baptists teachings.

Now i went with her to her Pastors house to discuss the bible. He himself calls himself “gallican catholic” or something to that effect.

I couldnt help but notice how many times he called the Catholic church pagan and that everything the church does is pagan. From the mass to the priests to the Eucharist. He also keep pointing out things like how much killing the catholic church did.

He said that he doesnt believe Catholics are chirstian. And wow did that get my fired up. Just thore me apart.

I do not believe that it is pagan at all. But could you guys that know more tell me why people believe like that? And what is this “Gallican Catholic” or whatever that he calls himself?
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I had never heard of Gallicans either, but it seems to be a rite of the Orthodox Church (Gallican from Gaul, i.e., France). There are quite a few references on the web; just Google it.

Some non-Catholics like to call the Catholic Church pagan, because it makes them feel better about their own churches. They point to external symbols (“The Christmas tree! Obviously a pagan symbol! You must be pagans!”) and various practices to try to claim that the Catholic Church really doesn’t worship the Trinity, believe in God, etc. The problem, of course, is that we are Christians – which irks some non-Catholic Christians no end.

When you’re stuck in a conversation with these people, you’re better off not engaging in a debate; there’s no way to persuade them, and it just gets more and more heated until there’s no civility left. You might try saying something like, “Please, there’s no need to get uncivil about this; if we can’t have a reasoned discussion, then I would prefer not to discuss it at all.” In the long run, your Christian behavior will do more to convert people (if not to the Church, then at least to a more polite manner of disagreement) than any amount of shouting Bible verses ever will.
 
Some Christians say Catholics are pagan because some of the old churches built in the middle ages had gargoyles on them. In my art history class, I was taught that Gargoyles have something to do with water flowing off the building.

There are also old churches that use animal symbols for the Four Evangelists: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.

My response to this is: If you were a pagan Roman convert to Christianity and if you were asked to build a Church building, might you include some of your former pagan ways into the building’s architecture? Yeah. Maybe. We must view ALL architectural monuments, including Catholic Churches, in the proper historical context.

My aunt tried to tell me the same thing: That the Catholic Church is founded upon paganism. She founded this argument upon gargoyles being on old Catholic Churches and the animal symbols. I thought this to be a rather sophomoric argument. I expressed to her that if she wished to dissuade me from the Church, she had to come up with a better argument than that. Her response was something to the effect that the Pastor of her Fundamentalist Christian Church went to Catholic Seminary and left, and that “HE KNOWS.” I asked her what deep dark secrets her Pastor “knew.” She didn’t know. LOL!

I suggest telling them this: The Catholic Church is founded upon Christ.

Much of radical anti-Catholicism stems from ignorance, and from detraction and libel caused by enemies of the Church, who, for whatever reason, hate us.

Fight ignorance with Truth. Fight detraction with Truth. Fight libel with Truth. Truth is the sword of Christ.

It’s very hard NOT to get emotionally upset when doing Apologetics with someone who, with conviction, bases his arguments upon irrational, unfounded and unreasonable ideas. But, still, try to respond with charity — though this can be hard. We’re all human. If you get upset, apologise to them, step outside for a moment, and then continue with the discussion or leave.

I got in an argument with someone at a friend’s house a few years ago over calling my Pastor “Father.” I then got upset when he started denegrating Mary, and I really got angry when he said that the Papacy was a hugest deception of all history. He wouldn’t tell me what he meant by it. Later on, I found out that this same person believes that demons are ascending out of Hell in spaceships through a hole in the earth somewhere near the North Pole.

I’d be interested to know what other radical ideas this Gallican Catholic preacher has. I bet you could dig up some real doosies! Next time you’re lassoed into an Apologetics argument with a radical anti-Catholic who seems irrational, ask them what they think about Space Aliens. Ask them if they think 9-11 was planned by the US government. Ask them what they think about Area 51, or if they think that Alien Autopsy on TV was real. Ask them if they believe in the “Reptilians.” Ask them about Bohemian Grove. Ask them about the Nephilim. Ask them if they think the Jewish Holocaust was a hoax. Stuff like that. You might uncover some really weird stuff, and then when you do, you know you’re talking with a fool!

See, when someone doesn’t base his arguments on reason, his whole house becomes unreasonable, opening the person up to all sorts of whacky ideas.

The Catholic Church is founded upon Christ, the Eternal Wisdom. That’s why most Catholics tend to be well-balanced, rational people, and that’s why we’re shocked when we come across people who are the opposite.

Hope this helps.

God Bless!
 
Oh, I just noticed you’re new to Catholic Answers.

Welcome!

You’ll find a wide range of people here. We’ve got some REALLY SMART Apologists lurking in this neck of the woods. I learn a LOT from coming here and just reading the threads.

Don’t be shy. If you have questions, just ask. We LOVE to talk!

God Bless!
 
Thanks guys.

What also i am worried about is that my g/f feels that this man is right because he studied the bible for 19 years and read it many times over.

She says that she got more into christianity through him then when she was Catholic.

She went through all the sacrements as well as a Catholic but turned away from it a couple of months ago.

I just ask for you to pray for Monika so she could understand the truth.
 
Matt_g18 said:
I myself am a Catholic firm in my fate. my girlfriend on the other hand is a fallenaway catholic that believes more inteh Baptists teachings.

Now i went with her to her Pastors house to discuss the bible. He himself calls himself “gallican catholic” or something to that effect.

I couldnt help but notice how many times he called the Catholic church pagan and that everything the church does is pagan. From the mass to the priests to the Eucharist. He also keep pointing out things like how much killing the catholic church did.

He said that he doesnt believe Catholics are chirstian. And wow did that get my fired up. Just thore me apart.

I do not believe that it is pagan at all. But could you guys that know more tell me why people believe like that? And what is this “Gallican Catholic” or whatever that he calls himself?
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Here’s an article that may help you. catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp. Here’s another one. catholic.com/library/sr_chick_tracts_p1.asp
 
Matt_g18 said:
I myself am a Catholic firm in my fate. my girlfriend on the other hand is a fallenaway catholic that believes more inteh Baptists teachings.

Now i went with her to her Pastors house to discuss the bible. He himself calls himself “gallican catholic” or something to that effect.

I couldnt help but notice how many times he called the Catholic church pagan and that everything the church does is pagan. From the mass to the priests to the Eucharist. He also keep pointing out things like how much killing the catholic church did.

He said that he doesn’t believe Catholics are Christians. And wow did that get me fired up. Just tore me apart.

I do not believe that it is pagan at all. But could you guys that know more tell me why people believe like that? And what is this “Gallican Catholic” or whatever that he calls himself?
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Hi Matt! 🙂
The guy’s full of baloney and one thing that you need to tell your girl upfront is that you totally disagree and that if she is to marry you it’s the Catholic way or no way at all. Your children need to be raised in the faith and taught well our most holy faith. Get her going back to Mass and (if possible) into your parish’s RCIA as soon as possible. Meanwhile, San Juan Catholic Seminars Beginning Apologetics 1 will probably be the best investment you can make on her behalf right now.

Print out my testimony and give it to her and tell her to come see me here at CAF. She’s being deceived.

Now…to your questions. Lak gave you links to some of the most devastating info you can find. I suggest that you print the one on if the church is pagan and give it to your girl to read.

If that preacher is Baptist then he’s grossly misrepresented himself in calling himself Gallican Catholic because they are an actual Orthodox Church and here’s what their website says they believe.
Our Orthodox Catholic Heritage (LINK)
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We hold, as essential to Orthodox Catholic Tradition, belief in the tenets of the faith as expressed in the Nicene and Apostles Creeds, the teachings of the Ecumenical Councils of the Undivided Church, the efficy of the Seven Sacraments of the Church, the sufficiency of the Sacred Scripture interpreted by tradition, scholarship and reason, and the principal of Apostolic Succession as the means of transmutting the historic ministries of deacon, priest (presbyter) and bishop. We hold to the ancient principal of the collegiality of bishops and recognize the special position of the Bishop of Rome as “first among equals” with all the other bishops, holding primacy of honor, but not primacy of jurisdiction over the entire church. We are a Gallican Catholic Church. For general information about our beliefs, rites, doctrines, history, places and times of worship email us, write us by letter or visit us. For information about membership, availability of the Sacraments; training for the priesthood, incardination of suitable clergy, and vocations to the Religious Life contact us by email or in person. To find about our presence on either continents (such as Europe) and in other countries or to discuss pastoral or other concerns email us. In Peace and Love of Our Lord. They may not be Catholic like us but they are a far cry from his preaching and certainly will not assert paganism.

This thread will probably help a little too.

When does he allege that we returned to paganism?

Gimme that and I can probably run him straight into the ground. 😉 Be sure to make him prove everything he alleges.
He won’t be able to.
Pax tecum,
 
Matt_g18 said:
I myself am a Catholic firm in my fate. my girlfriend on the other hand is a fallenaway catholic that believes more inteh Baptists teachings.

Now i went with her to her Pastors house to discuss the bible. He himself calls himself “gallican catholic” or something to that effect.

I couldnt help but notice how many times he called the Catholic church pagan and that everything the church does is pagan. From the mass to the priests to the Eucharist. He also keep pointing out things like how much killing the catholic church did.

He said that he doesnt believe Catholics are chirstian. And wow did that get my fired up. Just thore me apart.

I do not believe that it is pagan at all. But could you guys that know more tell me why people believe like that? And what is this “Gallican Catholic” or whatever that he calls himself?
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Her pastor is a huge problem for those who come to listen to him. Your friend is a victim of this anti-Catholic pastor - at least, try to get your girlfriend to attend another church where the pastor does not have this kind of behavior toward his Christian behavior. He doesn’t really know how to define Christian.
 
Matt,

I’ve been in your place. My situation wasn’t with a girlfriend, but a close friend who challenged me on my faith and to tell the truth I didn’t have the answers. In fact I didn’t have a clue! I was poorly catechized as a child and as an adult I didn’t take any responsibility for learning about my faith. What did I do? I started reading! I know more about my faith than ever before and I love it more than ever before. So you’ve come to the right place and I encourage you to roll up your sleeves and dig in! Read the bible, read the catechism and the information available from Catholic Answers. But most importantly pray.

God Bless,
Michael
 
I don’t get it. You went to discuss the bible, but he spent his time attacking the Catholic Church. So he would rather attack the Church than discuss the written word of God. Shows where his priorities are.

Welcome to the world of anti-Catholicism. Stick around here and you will learn all about it, and all about how sad and misinformed and often uncharitable it is. Anti-Catholic nonsense and vitriol made me a more faithful Catholic, and I know that is true of many others here as well.
 
VociMike said:
I don’t get it. You went to discuss the bible, but he spent his time attacking the Catholic Church. So he would rather attack the Church than discuss the written word of God. Shows where his priorities are.

Welcome to the world of anti-Catholicism. Stick around here and you will learn all about it, and all about how sad and misinformed and often uncharitable it is. Anti-Catholic nonsense and vitriol made me a more faithful Catholic, and I know that is true of many others here as well.
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😦 All too true.
 
I have never heard a fundamentalist call himself a “Gallican Catholic,” but I’m sure it’s the standard fantasy reconstruction of the early Middle Ages, in which there were “true Christians” who kept the faith untainted (for instance, the Frankish “Gallican”] Church under Charlemagne had a synod that criticised the veneration of images–Calvin made use of this and this may be one of the things this guy is relying on). The “Gallican Church” some other posters have found on the Internet is also clearly a modern reconstruction of the early medieval Gallican Church, but at least they pay some attention to what it was really like. “Gallican” in this context is the name of a missal rather than a Church–it was a liturgical Rite of the early medieval Western Church, eventually absorbed into the Roman Rite. N.B. the “Gallican Orthodox Catholic Church” or whatever is a small group not in communion with either the Orthodox or Catholic Churches (usually any church with a long name ending “Orthodox Catholic” is basically a bunch of wacky people in vestments who are trying to recreate what they think the Orthodox and/or Catholic Church should look like–there are a bunch of such tiny churches and they are no more Orthodox than they are Catholic). There was also an early modern “Gallicanism” which was a political movement within French Catholicism–I don’t think that has anything to do with this pastor.

Anyway, the point is that he’s creating a fantasy history to give himself credibility. There is a long pedigree of this–I was brought up with a lot of this stuff and I could go into it if you wanted me to (E. H. Broadbent’s The Pilgrim Church is one of the relatively saner statements of this position). I’ve never heard the term “Gallican” but it sounds like one more variation on an old theme–find any group in Church history that looks like it was resisting Rome in some way and claim it as your ancestor (actually the early medieval Gallic Church–as opposed to the early modern Gallicans–was not anti-Roman as far as I know; the synod under Charlemagne did take a certain independent stance over against the Pope but I don’t think it ever led to real conflict). It’s a load of nonsense. I’d be happy to debunk it further if you gave me more details, but with what I’ve got it would be pure speculation based on what I know about early medieval Catholicism.

As for the pagan charge–sure Catholicism is pagan (by some definitions–i.e., many rituals and customs come from pagan origins). What’s wrong with that? You have to make him define “pagan” and not just use it as a vague insult. Pin him down to the specific stuff that is allegedly pagan and make him show how it is wrong. Don’t let him use guilt by association. Just because pagans did something doesn’t make it bad. If he doesn’t like that principle, that’s his problem.

For instance, sacrifice is clearly a pagan custom. Ancient Near Eastern pagans sacrificed all the time. Does that mean that the OT sacrifices were pagan? In a sense, sure. But not in a sense that discredits them. Don’t try to defend Catholicism on his terms. His terms are wrong from the start.

As for the persecutions with which the Catholic Church has been involved–well, some of that is true. But he is almost certainly relying on wildly inflated figures and has no understanding of the historical context. He will probably tell you that the Catholic Church killed millions and millions of people in the Middle Ages–this is just nonsense and no historian believes this no matter what their ideology. For what it’s worth, it’s also historically accurate to point out that it was always the state executing people. Until about the 12th century the Church generally tried to hold the government back. After that point the Church came increasingly to sanction and even encourage persecution, which is indeed a shame and disgrace in my opinion. But it was always the Church handing people over to the state (not that this gets them off the hook). The state persecuted heresy in order to preserve civil order, and the Church saw this as perfectly natural and right. Still, the fact is that generally church courts took far more care to protect the innocent and to give people a chance of repentance than the secular courts did.
 
None of this will probably help much with your girlfriend. If she sees this guy as a spiritual giant, arguing historical facts won’t help much. Personally, I think that reading the Bible through X number of times is no guarantee of wisdom or holiness, but that may be a tough sell with her. What is your impression of the pastor as a person? Leaving his ideas aside, is he gracious and humble, or is he arrogant and bombastic? If the latter, you might gently suggest to her (citing 1 Corinthians 13) that how well you know the Scriptures isn’t as important as whether you manifest the love of Christ. If the former–well, then, you need to acknowledge that but point out that good and holy people can still make mistakes. It would help if you knew a truly holy priest to whom you could introduce her. You might consider trying to get her to watch Fr. Groeschel on EWTN. He impresses me as a man of great holiness (admittedly I did get to meet him in person once!), and he speaks very gently and charitably about Protestants. It sounds to me as if she’s going to be impressed by holiness more than by arguments.

I have been in basically this same position (yes, the relationship broke up). It’s tough. I wish you all the best, but in the end the two of you are going to have to decide if you basically trust the other (spiritually, I mean) in spite of your disagreements. In other words, do you each trust that the other truly loves Christ and is basically on the right track, whatever disagreements you might have. If you don’t, then a Christian marriage is going to be very difficult.

In Christ,

Edwin
 
This is an article by Ralph Woodrow, a Protestant pastor:

catholic.com/thisrock/2005/0505fea4.asp

Woodrow wrote a book “Babylon Mystery Religion” which made claims about the pagan/Catholic connection–probably the same ones your girlfriend’s pastor made. Woodrow later changed his mind and stopped having his book published. In this article he debunks the pagan/Catholic connection.

Make two copies of this article and give them to your girlfriend. Have her give a copy to her pastor. They might be more likely to read this since Woodrow is a Protestant.
 
I can’t believe this thread has come this far without anybody telling this young man to buy himself a copy of Karl Keating’s Catholicism and Fundamentalism. I think they sell it on this web site!

Go get it, Matt! All the poppycock this fellow is putting out is answered masterfully in this terrifice book.
 
Yea so i was talking to her more and basically she really got into the sola scriptura thing and that since the 7 deuterocanon books arent in her NKJ bible its not scripture.

Also she is really into videos and she constantly talks about this one that shows teh differences in all the bibles and how the protestant bible is right. THe guys last name starts with a W i think.

And yea she wont go onto a catholic forum because she thinks its baised to the faith.
 
And yea she wont go onto a catholic forum because she thinks its baised to the faith.
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And sites like “Christianity.com” aren’t biased towards Protestantism? Go register there and see how Catholics are treated. You are red flagged as soon as you say you’re Catholic, and if you link ANYTHING Catholic they ban you, saying you violated the terms of the board by banning cultist materials.

I was banned from Christianity.com for linking tanbooks! I e-mailed the owner of the site and she told me that Catholicism is a Cult.

Your girlfriend won’t learn ANYTHING Catholic from going there!

This board is GREAT because it actually allows real ecumenical discussions. Other Christian boards don’t let Catholics on because we’re no longer considered Christians.

Tell her that.

She needs to know that the information she thinks she’s getting off the big Christian boards is filtered information—filtering OUT anything or anyone Catholic.

God Bless!
 
GoldenArrow said:
This board is GREAT because it actually allows real ecumenical discussions. Other Christian boards don’t let Catholics on because we’re no longer considered Christians.

Tell her that.

She needs to know that the information she thinks she’s getting off the big Christian boards is filtered information—filtering OUT anything or anyone Catholic.

God Bless!
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I was banned from a certain board (rhymes with “harm”) just for saying I was Catholic. They banned me without letting me post one thing!
 
When I was a teenager, I was an Evangelical Protestant: mildly anti-Catholic. In Great Books class, I had to write a paper on Dante’s Divine Comedy and discovered the Catholic Encyclopedia. When I read all the “dirt” in there about Pope Alexander VI, I was impressed by its unvarnished honesty.

What kind of an organization would print all this ugly stuff about one of its leaders? Even at age 16, I realized that there must be something trustworthy about a Church that refused to cover up its warts.

If your girlfriend wants to hang out with Protestants, send her to Ligonier Ministries or Christian Research Institute. They both reject the Catholic Church but at least they know they owe a debt to it, and they don’t call it a cult.
 
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