Catholic Church reformation

[mgrfin]

Like what?

You say “warn” I say “announce”

QUOTE]

“On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential.” I like Benedict a great deal. But, this is not a dogmatic question. Turning to the East is essential? I doubt that. There is nothing essentially evil about facing south, or having the altar towards the people. Nor is he a noted liturgist.

Look, you are out picking the grapes in Northern California, and the Church bells announce it is time for the Angelus. Do the pickers turn and face east? Maybe they turn to face the Chapel - okay. But east is also towards Mecca. We want to pray like the Moslems? When I am walking on the beach, and praying my rosary, I should be facing east? Or is it more important that I am praying and understand what I am saying.

What is essential about our prayer, and the East: Jerusalem, the Rising Sun, Mecca? Did Jesus say, pray thusly: "Our Father…(and don’t forget to face the East).

I don’t see anything essential about praying facing the East, and I respectfully disagree with Ratzinger.

Ringing the bells during the “Hanc Igitur” was to wake up people who were probably not awake during this time of the Mass. The bells could be dispensed with, for the people now know what is going on.

Facing east is way down on the issue list. Firstly, pray in the language of the people was the first and important change in the liturgy. This I favored.

Moving the altar out from the wall, and putting the priest facing the people was my next favorite thing. Changes after that were not that important to me. Receiving the Eucharist on my tongue or in my hand, no altar rail, receiving standing or kneeling - I could go either way on these issues.

peace

 

[mgrfin]

stmaria;3306082:

Like what?

You say “warn” I say “announce”

QUOTE]

“On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential.” I like Benedict a great deal. But, this is not a dogmatic question. Turning to the East is essential? I doubt that. There is nothing essentially evil about facing south, or having the altar towards the people. Nor is he a noted liturgist.

Look, you are out picking the grapes in Northern California, and the Church bells announce it is time for the Angelus. Do the pickers turn and face east? Maybe they turn to face the Chapel - okay. But east is also towards Mecca. We want to pray like the Moslems? When I am walking on the beach, and praying my rosary, I should be facing east? Or is it more important that I am praying and understand what I am saying.

What is essential about our prayer, and the East: Jerusalem, the Rising Sun, Mecca? Did Jesus say, pray thusly: "Our Father…(and don’t forget to face the East).

I don’t see anything essential about praying facing the East, and I respectfully disagree with Ratzinger.

Ringing the bells during the “Hanc Igitur” was to wake up people who were probably not focused during this time of the Mass. The bells could be dispensed with, for the people now know what is going on.

Facing east is way down on the issue list. Firstly, pray in the language of the people was the first and important change in the liturgy. This I favored.

Moving the altar out from the wall, and putting the priest facing the people was my next favorite thing. Changes after that were not that important to me. Receiving the Eucharist on my tongue or in my hand, no altar rail, receiving standing or kneeling - I could go either way on these issues.

peace

 

[lak611]

I certainly never said I don’t trust Karl’s credentials or that he is telling the truth. But he does not present any hard statistics. It’s an educational brochure about Mormonism.

At one point he does state that half of converts to Mormonism are Catholic. Is that a million people a year? 10 people a year?

What I’m saying is that this brochure is not enough evidence to indict every Catholic parish on its educational standards.

I understand what you are saying. I do not know how many people convert to Mormonism every year. However, even one Catholic converting to Mormonism is one too many!

 

[cecilia97]

I understand what you are saying. I do not know how many people convert to Mormonism every year. However, even one Catholic converting to Mormonism is one too many!

Absolutely true! I guess part of my problem with this thread is semantics. We may need some better education in the Church. Many members of the Church need to take more initiative in their own education. But “reformation” seems a little strong.

 

[stmaria]

=mgrfin;330637

“On the other hand, a common turning to the East during the Eucharistic Prayer remains essential.” I like Benedict a great deal. But, this is not a dogmatic question. Turning to the East is essential? I doubt that. There is nothing essentially evil about facing south, or having the altar towards the people. ** Nor is he a noted liturgist**.

You have an interesting take on things mgrfin.

But east is also towards Mecca. We want to pray like the Moslems?

The Moslems also believe that God will return for the final judgement and he will come from the east.

When I am walking on the beach, and praying my rosary, I should be facing east?

Wouldn’t hurt

Or is it more important that I am praying and understand what I am saying.

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?

I don’t see anything essential about praying facing the East, and I respectfully disagree with Ratzinger

.
So you know more that Cardinal Ratzinger on the history of the liturgy?

Ringing the bells during the “Hanc Igitur” was to wake up people who were probably not awake during this time of the Mass. The bells could be dispensed with, for the people now know what is going on.

Not true at all and you know it. The Canon is silent. Therfore the bells announce the Consecration.

Facing east is way down on the issue list. Firstly, pray in the language of the people was the first and important change in the liturgy. This I favored.

That’s because you are a liberal/progressive

Moving the altar out from the wall, and putting the priest facing the people was my next favorite thing

.
I bet you really loved it when the Tabernacle was removed.

 

[jkarp]

Have you read works by Monsignor Klaus Gamber?

I understand Ratzinger wrote a preface to one of his works. Maybe Gamber is not of the Traditionalist mode?

I have not read any of his books, however I am definitely interested; thank you for the tip. However, it definitely seems that he is a traditionalist Catholic making arguments for exactly that which you are arguing against. Here is a review of one of his books:

At the end the author argues that the Roman Rite, with some adaptations, should be restored to equal dignity along with the Novus Ordo, which would be retained for now ad experimentum." - Fr. Kenneth Baker, Homiletic and Pastoral Review

 

[mgrfin]

You have an interesting take on things mgrfin.

The Moslems also believe that God will return for the final judgement and he will come from the east.

Wouldn’t hurt

Can you walk and chew gum at the same time?

.
So you know more that Cardinal Ratzinger on the history of the liturgy?

Not true at all and you know it. The Canon is silent. Therfore the bells announce the Consecration.

That’s because you are a liberal/progressive
.
I bet you really loved it when the Tabernacle was removed.

You mean the Jesuit question, can I chew gum and pray at the same time? Obviously, I can. Walking east and praying the Rosary adds nothing to my saying the Rosary.

As far as Benedict is concerned, he was not pope when he said supposedly what he said. Let me tell you why I have trouble with it. To say the eastward orientation is ‘essential’ to the Mass is to say that the Mass is invalid unless it is said oriented that way.

This pure nonsense. Orientation has nothing to do with the essence of the Sacriice of the Mass.

 

[mikew262]

My parish has 3 or 4 Bible studies every week. Fr. Walsh does one on Wednesday morning and one on Wednesday evening. I’m not sure when the other one or two are held, Fr. Simon does them.

Sounds good. Wish I could attend, but Chicago is a little far away.