Catholic Church & the Liberals

[CradleCath]

What is a liberal in your opinion?

I’m not the poster you asked, but here goes anyway.

A liberal (or progressive or dissenting…whatever name they are comfortable with) is indentified by his/her beliefs re moral issues, not by the Mass they attend. The Mass they attend is simply that which will most support their “values”.

IMO., a liberal Catholic will not take a firm stand against

**Multiple marriages & ease of obtaining an annulment in the US.

**abortion. I’ve heard many liberal Catholics mouth that old cliche, which makes NO sense anyway, “I’m against abortion per se, but I believe that each women has the right to choose”. What a crock. I’m against stealing, but I respect the right of others to choose whether to steal or not? NO ONE has the right to steal another’s property & no one has the right to kill an unborn child. .

**Their stance on gay sex, is simply a non-stance. Liberal Catholics claim that it is OK as long as the relationship between the two men/women is a “committed” one. The fact that gay sex is an abuse of the sexual organs & goes against God’s plan for the propagation of the world doesn’t matter to most liberals. Either that or they just aren’t thinking. God designed the male & female body to complete the other & anything else is disordered.

Then, of course, there is the “women priests” movement within liberal Catholicism, the blending of the clergy & the laity, etc., etc.

IOW. I don’t define liberal Catholics using the Mass they attend, but by their basic beliefs. However, I do believe that the liberal Catholics of today are much more comfortable at a Novus Ordo Mass.

 

[otjm]

A liberal (or progressive or dissenting…whatever name they are comfortable with) is indentified by his/her beliefs re moral issues, not by the Mass they attend. The Mass they attend is simply that which will most support their “values”.There is no Mass which supports the "values you define. The Pope himself, and almost every single cardinal, bishop and priest of the Roman rite celebrate the OF. That is one of the nastiest slurs I have heard about the OF, and I have heard a few.

IMO., a liberal Catholic will not take a firm stand against

**Multiple marriages & ease of obtaining an annulment in the US.

This is the subject of another thread; it is also a slur on all the tribunals who do follow current Canon law; you may not like some of the things current Canon law accepts as an impediment to marriage, but with more than 8 million divorced Catholics and the abysmal catechesis over the last 35 two generations with people who don’t even understand what the Eucharist is about, how do you expect them to have any formation in what the Church teaches about marriage? Take it up in another thread; you might actually learn something.

IOW. I don’t define liberal Catholics using the Mass they attend, but by their basic beliefs. However, I do believe that the liberal Catholics of today are much more comfortable at a Novus Ordo Mass.

Well, duh. Given that most Catholics, liberal, moderate or conservative only have the OF available, maybe there is no issue of “comfotable” about it. For most people there is no viable alternative. “Comfort” has nothing to do with it.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You evidently have not gone to the same ones I have gone to.
Kneeling is NOT prohibited. It is even encouraged. And NO one is refused communion just because they kneel (or stand). That’s simply hogwash.

The only thing I see is wrong with '“Tradition” is that all people do not follow it. The Tradition of the Church is to obey the Pope. Yet it is the “Modernist” who get blasted for not kneeling. Tell me, which is the greater sin. Not kneeling or not obeying the Pope?
Which do you think Jesus would choose. He did say the “I will build MY church on this rock”. The Rock was Peter, the chair of Peter is still occupied by his successor. We are to follow Christ, so we are to follow his Vicar on earth. And as Mary says, “Do what He tells you to do” END QUOTE

You tell me where the Holy See in an Official Document has said that we are NOT to kneel in the Presence of Jesus, either during the EP or when we recieve Him in Holy Communion. You tell me where the Holy Father tells us to NOT kneel.
A whole lot of things about Vatican II have been taken out of context…reverence to Jesus as God and Judge,Fear of God, the horror of sin and the pains of Hell are just some of them.
And I am of the opinion that you should count yourself as blessed that you haven’t been in a church that refuses to allow anyone on their knees to recieve Jesus, or that removes those who try to kneel during the Eurcharist Prayers. Watching Mother Angelica during the 90’s gave us a lot of information about what was going on in Churches in this country. Just because you haven’t witnessed them doesn’t mean that it is hogwash! You weren’t there to see the Ascension of Jesus, but it still happened.
People who have a problem with tradition, no matter their rank, are on the road to believing that God must change to be modern.
If the changes that are occurring are not coming from the Holy See in Rome, but are rather coming from the American Bishops Conferences, or those anywhere else, they DON’T count. Many of those in America and Europe are liberals…and yes, Spiller, I meant LIBERAL as in Liberal Democrats. They follow the same beliefs.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Let me please apologize for my tone. Maybe you weren’t calling my words hogwash, but the practices of some churches that I have been to. If so, I am very sorry for my seeming attack.
I do, however, see that all of the attacks in this thread are aimed at Traditionalists. Not the other way around.
I was born in 1969, after Vatican II. I have only ever been to 1 Latin Mass. I was extremely impressed with the reverence shown during that Mass. I understand the feelings of those whom are labeled Traditionalists, especially in light of what I have seen of the irreverence which sometimes borders on sacrilegous in the Pauline Mass.
I am part of the Catholic Charasmatic Movement. It shows very much reverence to Jesus. I can recieve my Jesus on my knees, and no one batts an eye. It is Pauline Mass, but it is strict in its accordance with Rome. No one who is part of this movement would be a part of it if they did not wish to follow the authority of Rome, nor would they want to do anything other than show reverence to Jesus. They do not go to His house and ignore His Presence. They go because they want to be in His Presence…and there is no doubt that He is present. He is so present that they would not be able to handle being there unless they were being converted to Him through His Holy Spirit. He is the One being spoken of and with…in our conversations. We seek Him to truly be the Center of our lives. We beg Him for His Truth, and we thank Him for revealing it to us. We bow before Him, and we praise Him. And we do not leave Him behind when we leave His house, we take Him with us into the world, into our daily lives, and into our conversations. He is always present in our minds. We beg Him to be so. We offer Him ourselves in surrender. And He is converting us as He converted those at the first Pentecost when He sent His Holy Spirit upon the Blessed Mother and Apostles and disciples as they were praying in the upper room. And He is converting our children.
The Catholic Charasmatic Movement was blessed by Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

For Cradle Cath,

What is a Novus Ordo Mass

 

[Spiller]

I resent that. When I am in the Presence of My Crucified Savior, I am all but compelled to kneel at times. And, for the record, I have been refused Holy Communion! When I am feeling especially close to Jesus in the Most Blessed Sacrament of the Alter, why should I not be kneeling? HE is GOD !!!, and every knee shall bow, every tongue proclaim that Jesus Christ is Lord. You do not have nearly enough knowledge about my personal relationship with my Savior and Lord to label me in any way.

I simply follow what God and His Son direct me to do through their Church via the Holy Spirit – or at least with His grace I try to. Is it difficult at times? Sure, on this and a whole host of other matters. We are all born with the stain of original sin. Even after being born again in Christ through the Holy Spirit we never lose the concupiscence to do as we please and not as directed by God. Pride is a real killer and can make obedience to His Church extremely difficult at times.

When they took away the kneelers at Mass for Holy Communion, they took away our ability to show reverence to Jesus as we recieved Him! They didn’t do it to increase our reverence! Now I can go into any number of “Catholic” Masses, and I find that people aren’t even allowed to kneel at any time during the Mass. There is NO reverence shown to God. Reverence is not taught. Nor is honor for the position that the priest holds. WHAT IS WRONG WITH TRADITION?!?!

That’s simply not true. One must not kneel to show “reverence.” While primarily an internal matter, there are other ways of displaying reverence – like bowing. In fact in the Byzantine Catholic Church, they never kneel on Sundays

What is wrong with kneeling in Mass during the Eucharistic Prayers? And what is so horrible about people recieving Jesus from a kneeling position? And, whatever you answer, do you think that Jesus will agree with you, against someone who wants to show reverence when you meet Him on Judgement Day?

Nothing. In fact we are directed to unless we unable to. Red herring.

 

[Spiller]

The Pope himself gives communion on the tongue while kneeling, Spiller. Liberal bishops’ conferences aren’t God almighty, and unless the Pope proclaims it is sinful to receive on the ground on the tongue (which, because it is not a sin and because the Pope encourages this practice will never happen) I will receive in this manner until I am too old and feeble to kneel, in which case I will still receive on the tongue until I die.

More cafeteria Catholicism – follow what you want and ignore what you want. I am more and more amazed at the excuses some use to justify ignoring what the Church actually directs.

There was liturgical dancing last weekend at the Mass celebrated by Cardinal Arinze. Using your logic that’s carte blanche to allow liturgical dancing…not.

Do you think we like to be scolded at by priests when we kneel in front of them, and be given dirty/condescending looks? We’re not doing it for vainglory or pride- we’re doing it because Jesus Christ is physically present before us, and we would never dare presume to stand before Our Lord, as if equals. What other do does not concern me, but that is how I approach the Lord, personally.

Nope, I think you should be counseled outside of Mass as the Church directs on the importance of following the documented norm.

I also don’t think it’s OK to continue to disregard what the Church actually directs on this matter.

 

[Spiller]

For Cradle Cath,

What is a Novus Ordo Mass

The Ordinary Rite of the Mass – the Mass of Pope Paul VI.

 

[Spiller]

I’m just Catholic…

That’s exactly what my eastern priest says when people wander around referring to themselves as “traditional catholics” (sic)

 

[ProVobis]

How many of today’s converts would have been turned away if everything was still in Latin?

Do you have the exact numbers? Or is it just your gut-feel?

You know it just might be that many of the converts aren’t carrying the excess baggage of all the anti-trad hostilities you seem to be carrying and are more open to traditional practices of the Church.