Catholic Church vs Protestant denominations?

[kimbaichan]

This is from “Courage to be Catholic” on p.26
*“the Catholic Church is not a denomination - an institution whose form is typically defined by the will of its members - but a Church - a community whose basic structure and boundries are defined, once and for all, by the will of Christ.”*I would love some (name removed by moderator)ut on this. It seemed interesting to me because I’ve seen independant Baptist churches change doctrine with a change of members but I’m not well informed about Christianity, in general. Is this true for other Protestant denominations? I love this definition of the Catholic Church but it seems like some Catholics would say that parts of the Church have come to be “defined by the will of its members.” I’m thinking here of criticisms by traditional Catholics, but again, I’m far from well informed about this. So , please, let me know what you think.
Thank you, Kimberly

 

[ejb21]

This is from “Courage to be Catholic” on p.26
*“the Catholic Church is not a denomination - an institution whose form is typically defined by the will of its members - but a Church - a community whose basic structure and boundries are defined, once and for all, by the will of Christ.”*I would love some (name removed by moderator)ut on this. It seemed interesting to me because I’ve seen independant Baptist churches change doctrine with a change of members but I’m not well informed about Christianity, in general. Is this true for other Protestant denominations? I love this definition of the Catholic Church but it seems like some Catholics would say that parts of the Church have come to be “defined by the will of its members.” I’m thinking here of criticisms by traditional Catholics, but again, I’m far from well informed about this. So , please, let me know what you think.
Thank you, Kimberly

Hi Kimberly

I’m trying to understand what you mean by parts of the Catholic Church being defined by the will of its members.

 

[kimbaichan]

I was thinking of the Traditional Catholic criticism of the Novus ordo mass, the laity’s participation in it, specifically. But like I said, I’m far, far from knowledgeable about the in’s and out’s of this.

 

[ejb21]

I was thinking of the Traditional Catholic criticism of the Novus ordo mass, the laity’s participation in it, specifically. But like I said, I’m far, far from knowledgeable about the in’s and out’s of this.

Kimberly

Thank You for the clarification. It’s an interesting thought.

 

[allischalmers]

This is from “Courage to be Catholic” on p.26
*“the Catholic Church is not a denomination - an institution whose form is typically defined by the will of its members - but a Church - a community whose basic structure and boundries are defined, once and for all, by the will of Christ.”*I would love some (name removed by moderator)ut on this. It seemed interesting to me because I’ve seen independant Baptist churches change doctrine with a change of members but I’m not well informed about Christianity, in general. Is this true for other Protestant denominations? I love this definition of the Catholic Church but it seems like some Catholics would say that parts of the Church have come to be “defined by the will of its members.” I’m thinking here of criticisms by traditional Catholics, but again, I’m far from well informed about this. So , please, let me know what you think.
Thank you, Kimberly

Just wondering how many Baptist Churches you h aveattended on a regular basis so that you would know that they change doctine with a change of members. You know it take years for there to be a turnover of members in a church.

 

[kimbaichan]

I’ve been a member of one Baptist church.

 

[Louie1983]

This is from “Courage to be Catholic” on p.26
*“the Catholic Church is not a denomination - an institution whose form is typically defined by the will of its members - but a Church - a community whose basic structure and boundries are defined, once and for all, by the will of Christ.”*I would love some (name removed by moderator)ut on this. It seemed interesting to me because I’ve seen independant Baptist churches change doctrine with a change of members but I’m not well informed about Christianity, in general. Is this true for other Protestant denominations? I love this definition of the Catholic Church but it seems like some Catholics would say that parts of the Church have come to be “defined by the will of its members.” I’m thinking here of criticisms by traditional Catholics, but again, I’m far from well informed about this. So , please, let me know what you think.
Thank you, Kimberly

Hi Kimberly,

The situation of the traditional mass and the novus ordo is a long and complicated one. If you are thinking of joining the church i would focus first on it’s teachings which has not been changed since christ founded the church on St peter. The situation with the traditional mass and the novus ordo i think is a matter to be handled by the magisterium, it’s best we leave these things for the church that is guided by the holy spirit to handle.

The catholic church has never changed it’s doctrines or it’s teachings in 2000 years! It has always been loyal to god’s word and law and it never will change. God’s law and his church will surpass anything here on earth for jesus said “hevaen and earth may pass away, but my my words never will pass away”. This is a promise from jesus that he will be with his holy catholic church until the very end of time. You will notice that almost every other denomination has changed it’s teachings in key areas such as :

• Homosexuality
• Contraception
• Abortion
• Women being ordained as priests
• Marriage
• The trinity
• The blessed virgin mary.

There are more.

My best advice is to read the catechism of the catholic church. You will find many of the answers about the catholic faith there.

God bles you.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

Hi Kimberly,

The situation of the traditional mass and the novus ordo is a long and complicated one. If you are thinking of joining the church i would focus first on it’s teachings which has not been changed since christ founded the church on St peter. The situation with the traditional mass and the novus ordo i think is a matter to be handled by the magisterium, it’s best we leave these things for the church that is guided by the holy spirit to handle.

The catholic church has never changed it’s doctrines or it’s teachings in 2000 years! It has always been loyal to god’s word and law and it never will change. God’s law and his church will surpass anything here on earth for jesus said “hevaen and earth may pass away, but my my words never will pass away”. This is a promise from jesus that he will be with his holy catholic church until the very end of time. You will notice that almost every other denomination has changed it’s teachings in key areas such as :

• Homosexuality
• Contraception
• Abortion
• Women being ordained as priests
• Marriage
• The trinity
• The blessed virgin mary.

There are more.

My best advice is to read the catechism of the catholic church. You will find many of the answers about the catholic faith there.

God bles you.

Playing devil’s advocate…

Well the problem is the Catholic Church has changed throughout the 2,000 years. For one thing, extra ecclesium non salus (outside the Church no salvation) gave way in Vatican II to an openness to God’s mercy toward non-Catholics. I hear the argument all the time that it isn’t really a change because Buddhists, Baptists, and Muslims will be saved but it will still be through the Roman Catholic Church whether they realize it or not. I wonder how that’s possible when they’re dead, never darkened the doors of a Catholic Church, and never took a sacrament. They never had any relationship with the Church at all. It would have to be directly from God. So, it seems to me the Church changed this.

Also, the term Transubstantiation didn’t exist until the Middle Ages in the age of Aquinas. Clerical celibacy didn’t exist for hundreds of years; that changed.

The papacy was co-equal with other bishops in all the ecumenical councils during the days of Constantine and company and steadily grew after the fall of Rome. In the 1800’s it announced infallibility. Universal jurisdiction was not a part of the early church.

Also, women were allowed to be deaconesses in the New Testament. This became taboo in the Roman Church somewhere in the monarchical episcopate’s development. That is a huge change.

The Catholic Church changed the approach of the Holy Spirit by adding the Filioque clause, alienating the Orthodox.

Also, purgatory didn’t exist for centuries and still isn’t really accepted among most Orthodox, became adopted by Rome after centuries. Indulgences came around in the Middle Ages and had never existed either.

The Eucharist was the presence of Christ in the context of a meal and in the Middle Ages came to be adored in benediction and adoration. This understanding of how to experience the Eucharist was a change.

And if you read many of the Early Fathers and Augustine and his contemporaries, they would have flipped their lids over natural family planning. That doctrine wouldn’t have been allowed had they even possessed the technology. I’ve read where some of these early saints felt intercourse for any reason outside of procreation was a mortal sin. So this has changed.

And the Blessed Virgin Mary wasn’t declared to be Immaculate or Assumed until recent centuries in the 1800’s and 1900’s. So, Catholic teachings have grown and evolved for sure.

Just keeping ya on your toes

 

[Louie1983]

Playing devil’s advocate…

Well the problem is the Catholic Church has changed throughout the 2,000 years. For one thing, extra ecclesium non salus (outside the Church no salvation) gave way in Vatican II to an openness to God’s mercy toward non-Catholics. I hear the argument all the time that it isn’t really a change because Buddhists, Baptists, and Muslims will be saved but it will still be through the Roman Catholic Church whether they realize it or not. I wonder how that’s possible when they’re dead, never darkened the doors of a Catholic Church, and never took a sacrament. They never had any relationship with the Church at all. It would have to be directly from God. So, it seems to me the Church changed this.

Also, the term Transubstantiation didn’t exist until the Middle Ages in the age of Aquinas. Clerical celibacy didn’t exist for hundreds of years; that changed.

The papacy was co-equal with other bishops in all the ecumenical councils during the days of Constantine and company and steadily grew after the fall of Rome. In the 1800’s it announced infallibility. Universal jurisdiction was not a part of the early church.

Also, women were allowed to be deaconesses in the New Testament. This became taboo in the Roman Church somewhere in the monarchical episcopate’s development. That is a huge change.

The Catholic Church changed the approach of the Holy Spirit by adding the Filioque clause, alienating the Orthodox.

Also, purgatory didn’t exist for centuries and still isn’t really accepted among most Orthodox, became adopted by Rome after centuries. Indulgences came around in the Middle Ages and had never existed either.

The Eucharist was the presence of Christ in the context of a meal and in the Middle Ages came to be adored in benediction and adoration. This understanding of how to experience the Eucharist was a change.

And if you read many of the Early Fathers and Augustine and his contemporaries, they would have flipped their lids over natural family planning. That doctrine wouldn’t have been allowed had they even possessed the technology. I’ve read where some of these early saints felt intercourse for any reason outside of procreation was a mortal sin. So this has changed.

And the Blessed Virgin Mary wasn’t declared to be Immaculate or Assumed until recent centuries in the 1800’s and 1900’s. So, Catholic teachings have grown and evolved for sure.

Just keeping ya on your toes

Hi gurneyhalleck1,

Thanks for the note but many of the things you have mentioned above were not exactly changes to what the church believed but changes to discilpines if you know what i mean. For e.g the eucharist you say was taught as the real body of christ in the cntext of a meal but it still taught that it was the real presnce of christ regardless. This is what i meant by not changing it’s teaching.

Yes ia gree with you that catholic doctrine has evolved and grown, but what i meant was the church has taught one thing and then said “hang on, we were wrong, this is the right answer”.

Thanks for your help, appreciate it.

 

[kimbaichan]

Playing devil’s advocate…

extra ecclesium non salus (outside the Church no salvation) gave way in Vatican II to an openness to God’s mercy toward non-Catholics. I hear the argument all the time that it isn’t really a change because Buddhists, Baptists, and Muslims will be saved but it will still be through the Roman Catholic Church whether they realize it or not. I wonder how that’s possible when they’re dead, never darkened the doors of a Catholic Church, and never took a sacrament. They never had any relationship with the Church at all. It would have to be directly from God. My perception of Church teaching on this is that there is no other way to be saved other that what the CC has received from Christ. So one of the people you mention would have to be baptised in one of the three recognized ways and have an act of perfect contrition. Easier if your a Catholic and not fumbling you way towrds truth through the darkness of sin and ignorance.

Also, the term Transubstantiation didn’t exist until the Middle Ages in the age of Aquinas. Again, just my understanding of the Church: the idea of the truth was already there, it just didn’t have a ten-dollar word, yet. Clerical celibacy didn’t exist for hundreds of years; that changed. Dicipline, which can change, and not doctrine, which can’t.

The papacy was co-equal with other bishops in all the ecumenical councils during the days of Constantine and company and steadily grew after the fall of Rome. In the 1800’s it announced infallibility. Universal jurisdiction was not a part of the early church. I don’t know enough about this.

Also, women were allowed to be deaconesses in the New Testament. My understanding from reading the NT passage about deaconesses is that they were the wives of deacon, not a seperate institution. It was just a way of refering to the deacon’s wife.
The Catholic Church changed the approach of the Holy Spirit by adding the Filioque clause, alienating the Orthodox. I have a very small grasp of this issue, but it seems that this is a clarification of something that was ambigious enough to previously allow room for error.

Also, purgatory didn’t exist for centuries and still isn’t really accepted among most Orthodox, became adopted by Rome after centuries. Indulgences came around in the Middle Ages and had never existed either. It seems to me that by following teachings of Scripture to their logical ends these doctrines were plainly stated but there was nothing changed.

The Eucharist was the presence of Christ in the context of a meal and in the Middle Ages came to be adored in benediction and adoration. This understanding of how to experience the Eucharist was a change. In Scripture St.Paul was already telling a church (I think the Corinthians?) to stop acting like it was a meal.

**And if you read many of the Early Fathers and Augustine and his contemporaries, they would have flipped their lids over natural family planning. That doctrine wouldn’t have been allowed had they even possessed the technology. I’ve read where some of these early saints felt intercourse for any reason outside of procreation was a mortal sin.**There’s no way I’m sticking my foot into that mud puddle.
And the Blessed Virgin Mary wasn’t declared to be Immaculate or Assumed until recent centuries in the 1800’s and 1900’s. So, Catholic teachings have grown and evolved for sure. I think this is Church teaching followed to a logical conclusion.

Just keeping ya on your toes

What got me started thinking about this was attending a Mass recently where during the concluding rites some members of the congregation appeared to bless the preist when they said, “and also with you.” When I read the line from “Courage to be Catholic” I started thinking about how denominations change and how the Church stays in line with the truth. Thanks for your replies, I’ll keep studying, and thinking, and praying.KChan