Catholic churches shouldn't have statues!

[Zundrah]

Leviticus, chapter 26
Reward for Obedience
1 " 'Do not make idols or set up statues or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God.

How then can you have statues!? I love the statues of the sacred heart of Christ and the images of Mary but the bible says that they shouldn’t have been made! How then can you look at this scipture!?

Do Catholcs just ignore this scripture?

 

[Peter_Dawson]

How then can you have statues!? I love the statues of the sacred heart of Christ and the images of Mary but the bible says that they shouldn’t have been made! How then can you look at this scipture!?

Do Catholcs just ignore this scripture?

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we should still be sacrificing sheep, cattle and turtledoves.

Do you get the point?

 

[Zundrah]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, and we should still be sacrificing sheep, cattle and turtledoves.

Do you get the point?

No I don’t get the point…

 

[Zundrah]

God said “No” so how can we just say “Yes”?

 

[Zundrah]

Please don’t think I am anti-catholic. I go to the Catholic Church and I love the statues but I saw this scripture and it just “pops” the question… how and when did this change? Why is this scripture just being given the cold sholder if it is God’s word?

 

[1edyson]

We don’t have Idols of Dagon in our churches. Pagans considered the idols and statues that are being spoken about AS GODS themselves. God, said NO there is only one true God, so he commanding us not to worship idols and statues AS GODS. Have you at all read Gods specific instructions for the construction of the Ark, and the Temple? Statues and figures of Heaven and earth abound in them, so I ask you, would God contradict himself? Tell us to not make statues, and then later tell them to make statues in the Temple he himself commanded us to make to Worship Him?

 

[Zundrah]

We don’t have Idols of Dagon in our churches. Pagans considered the idols and statues that are being spoken about AS GODS themselves. God, said NO there is only one true God, so he commanding us not to worship idols and statues AS GODS. Have you at all read Gods specific instructions for the construction of the Ark, and the Temple? Statues and figures of Heaven and earth abound in them, so I ask you, would God contradict himself? Tell us to not make statues, and then later tell them to make statues in the Temple he himself commanded us to make to Worship Him?

I don’t know why you are asking me this, I don’t know what you mean. But I’m asking you this because it is a very blunt scripture with no ways around what it is saying.

 

[rambo]

catholic.com/library/Do_Catholics_Worship_Statues.asp

Read this God can not contradict himself. You are picking and choosing versus. You must read the entire bible not just the versus anti catholics give you.

People who oppose religious statuary forget about the many passages where the Lord commands the making of statues. For example: “And you shall make two cherubim of gold *; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends of the mercy seat. Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece of the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be” (Ex. 25:18–20).

David gave Solomon the plan “for the altar of incense made of refined gold, and its weight; also his plan for the golden chariot of the cherubim that spread their wings and covered the ark of the covenant of the Lord. All this he made clear by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all, all the work to be done according to the plan” (1 Chr. 28:18–19). David’s plan for the temple, which the biblical author tells us was “by the writing of the hand of the Lord concerning it all,” included statues of angels.

Similarly Ezekiel 41:17–18 describes graven (carved) images in the idealized temple he was shown in a vision, for he writes, “On the walls round about in the inner room and [on] the nave were carved likenesses of cherubim.”*

 

[1edyson]

I don’t know why you are asking me this, I don’t know what you mean. But I’m asking you this because it is a very blunt scripture with no ways around what it is saying.

Because it’s all about context. I know you’re investigating Catholicism, and have very general basic questions, and can understand how you’re seeing this as a sticking point but would God contradict himself, give very specific mandates on NOT making statues, and then when giving us the instruction to make the Ark, and the Temple, give very specific examples ON making statues. Also, if you take the passage into context, it says not to make graven images of anything on heaven and earth…right? Well let me ask you, look around your house, do you have pictures? paintings? Heaven forbid statues of any sort? Well if you are going to interpret that ONE line of scripture, like you’re doing then you MUST destroy all the pictures of family, friends, etc that you have now, and destroy any work made by human hands of images of Heaven and earth…

So back to my point, would God ask us to violate a specific law he gave, not even ask, but COMMAND that statues be made in his Temple? Last point, is on scripture itself, I assume you believe in the Trinity, if scripture is the final sole authority, how can you reconcile belief in the Trinity if nowhere in scripture is the word Trinity found in any translation, Greek, Hebrew etc? So are you in turn, going around what scripture is saying?

 

[Zundrah]

1edyson;5482146]Because it’s all about context. I know you’re investigating Catholicism, and have very general basic questions, and can understand how you’re seeing this as a sticking point but would God contradict himself, give very specific mandates on NOT making statues, and then when giving us the instruction to make the Ark, and the Temple, give very specific examples ON making statues. Also, if you take the passage into context, it says not to make graven images of anything on heaven and earth…right? Well let me ask you, look around your house, do you have pictures? paintings? Heaven forbid statues of any sort? Well if you are going to interpret that ONE line of scripture, like you’re doing then you MUST destroy all the pictures of family, friends, etc that you have now, and destroy any work made by human hands of images of Heaven and earth…

Yes, God did ask them to make the ark and statues ect (I remember this much) but he said to do that just then, he didn’t just permit us to do it whenever we like. He only said to make it there and then. Like when he said to people to go and kill off some native groups in the bible (the biblical wars); murder is still a sin but not when God told them to do it. That is the difference. Do you see what I’m saying here?

So back to my point, would God ask us to violate a specific law he gave, not even ask, but COMMAND that statues be made in his Temple? Last point, is on scripture itself, I assume you believe in the Trinity, if scripture is the final sole authority, how can you reconcile belief in the Trinity if nowhere in scripture is the word Trinity found in any translation, Greek, Hebrew etc? So are you in turn, going around what scripture is saying?

The trinity is God, Christ and the Holy Spirit. The word trinity need not exist. Trinity just simply means “three”.

 

[1edyson]

Where does scripture say that we can do it in this one instance, but not in any other, or whenever we like? If anything it strictly forbids it in your verse, so in essence God is contradicting himself in both the biblical wars, and in the instance of images if you are interpreting these verses as you are, yes or no? The point that is being made is that we are not to make images, idols etc that are worshiped as God, put before God. And do you have pictures of family friends, works of anything made by man that depict images of heaven and earth?

Let me ask it a different way, WHY would God not want us to make statues, what about them would God find offensive?

And the contextual Idea of Trinity is a development of doctrine that explains the true nature of God, an outside of scripture development, so if the explicit interpretation of God’s nature is not found in Scripture, why do you believe it? Nowhere in scripture does it directly indicate that, Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit ever say, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit are the same God, in three distinct persons.

 

[Peter_Dawson]

No I don’t get the point…

Here is the point: God told us to do and to not do a LOT in the OT, almost all of which we no longer do.

Why?

Because the requirements were almost all foreshadowings of things which no longer need to be foreshadowed.

Why are we no longer required to treat leprosy with Leviticus’ two bird sacrifice? Answer: Because killing the first bird is a picture of killing Christ in the form of “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.” Splattering the second bird with the killed bird’s blood and letting it go is a picture of the blood of Christ’s sacrifice driving away sin itself.

Since Christ came and died, no foreshadowing is necessary.

The same thing with statues: The prohibition of God-figures made of “Earth stuff” foreshadowed the absence, for a time, of the Incarnation.

Well, He came and went except fror His Real Presence in the Eucharist.

No more foreshadowing of His absence is necessary.

 

[Zundrah]

Where does scripture say that we can do it in this one instance, but not in any other, or whenever we like? If anything it strictly forbids it in your verse, so in essence God is contradicting himself in both the biblical wars, and in the instance of images if you are interpreting these verses as you are, yes or no? The point that is being made is that we are not to make images, idols etc that are worshiped as God, put before God. And do you have pictures of family friends, works of anything made by man that depict images of heaven and earth?

Let me ask it a different way, WHY would God not want us to make statues, what about them would God find offensive?

And the contextual Idea of Trinity is a development of doctrine that explains the true nature of God, an outside of scripture development, so if the explicit interpretation of God’s nature is not found in Scripture, why do you believe it? Nowhere in scripture does it directly indicate that, Jesus, God, or the Holy Spirit ever say, God, Jesus, the Holy Spirit are the same God, in three distinct persons.

…you’re changing the subject ridiculously, read the scripture again! I don’t care if God contradicts him self for a short while or even eternaly, I have no problem with that! But you can’t seem to answer the OP! Answer this; what is the catholic churches excuse for having statues even though this scripture says that we shouldn’t!?

xxx zundrah xxx

 

[Zundrah]

Here is the point: God told us to do and to not do a LOT in the OT, almost all of which we no longer do.

Why?

Because the requirements were almost all foreshadowings of things which no longer need to be foreshadowed.

Why are we no longer required to treat leprosy with Leviticus’ two bird sacrifice? Answer: Because killing the first bird is a picture of killing Christ in the form of “Him-Who-did-not-know-sin-Who-was-made-to-be-sin.” Splattering the second bird with the killed bird’s blood and letting it go is a picture of the blood of Christ’s sacrifice driving away sin itself.

Since Christ came and died, no foreshadowing is necessary.

The same thing with statues: The prohibition of God-figures made of “Earth stuff” foreshadowed the absence, for a time, of the Incarnation.

Well, He came and went except fror His Real Presence in the Eucharist.

No more foreshadowing of His absence is necessary.

There are no sacrifices because Christ was our final sacrifice to pay for all things.
Staues are another matter entirely!

 

[adrift]

Perhaps you can see better what is actually being said by using a different translation.

Do not make false gods for yourselves. You shall not erect an idol or a sacred pillar for yourselves, nor shall you set up a stone figure for worship in your land; for I, the LORD, am your God.

Both translations are saying the same thing that is not making FALSE gods. That is why God is not contradicting Himself when He says to make two cherubim of gold because they are not being worshiped as a god. The command is there shall be no other gods before me. In order for statues to be wrong they must be an idol. Idols are considered as gods. The statues we have in church are not idols. Neither are the statues we have in Washington D.C. Or New York with the statue of Liberty or in multiple other places that display statues of famous people are displayed. They are not meant to be worshiped. That is what is being condemned the worship of something other than the one true God.

 

[1edyson]

I don’t care if God contradicts him self for a short while or even eternaly, I have no problem with that!

xxx zundrah xxx

God doesn’t contradict himself, ever. It’s all about context my young friend.

 

[rocketrob]

Adrift has it right as far as a concise answer. God prohibits the worship of man-made false gods or idols:

I am the Lord your God: you shall not make to yourselves any idol or graven thing, neither shall you erect pillars, nor set up a remarkable stone in your land, to adore it: for I am the Lord your God. (Lev 26:1 - Douay Rheims)

The Haydock commentary entry for this verse is as follows:

To adore it. This explains the prohibition of making graven things, &c. The Protestants translate as usual, “Ye shall make you no idols, nor graven image, neither rear ye up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone in your land to bow down unto it.” They seem terribly afraid of images, as if they were all idols. See Exodus xx. 4. (Haydock) — Pillars. Hebrew mattseba, “statue, or monument.” Such were erected by Jacob, Josue, and even by Moses himself, without any offence or danger of idolatry. (Genesis xxviii. 8; Josue iv. 4; Exodus xxiv. 4.) Apuleius (Flor.) makes mention, among other species of superstition, “of a stone anointed, and of an altar crowned with flowers.” — The stone, which is here condemned, is one set up “for adoration.” (Onkelos) — Hebrew, “a stone of sight,” placed on some eminence, or on the high roads. Strabo, (xvii.) speaking of those which he had seen in Egypt along the roads, says, “they are lofty, polished, and almost like a sphere, some 12 feet in diameter. There are sometimes three, of different dimensions, one upon another. Some were to be seen upon Mount Libanus. They were objects of adoration.” The Greeks raised heaps of stones on the high roads, in honour of Mercury. (Proverbs xxvi. 7.) (Calmet) — We are not forbidden to place land-marks, &c.: but we must not adore them. (Du Hamel)

The presence/creation of the statues in a Catholic Church does not contradict Scripture because they are not worshipped. I suspect this is the real root of your question…how the statues are viewed by Catholics. This is probably the topic of another (or prior) threads. But keep in mind that Catholics use different language than Protestants. For Catholics, ‘veneration’ or ‘adoration’ mean something very different from ‘worship.’ Only God is worthy of worship.

rocketrob

 

[Peter_Dawson]

There are no sacrifices because Christ was our final sacrifice to pay for all things.
Staues are another matter entirely!

Of course, just saying that statues are another matter is not an argument.

I say that they are really the same matter, in the critical way.

And I’m not just dreaming that up. Both are OT requirements.

Both foreshadow Christ.

Christ came.

Presto chango, no foreshadowing necessary anymore.

 

[Tony_Souza]

…you’re changing the subject ridiculously, read the scripture again! I don’t care if God contradicts him self for a short while or even eternaly, I have no problem with that! But you can’t seem to answer the OP! Answer this; what is the catholic churches excuse for having statues even though this scripture says that we shouldn’t!?

xxx zundrah xxx

For one thing, God is Truth. God does not change, therefore Truth does not change. It is impossible for God to contradict Himself. If He did, He would not be Truth. If He is not Truth, His Word would not be true, and this whole discussion wouldn’t matter, because none of us would have any rational reason to believe what the Bible says, at all.

For another thing, what is your motivation in asking this? You say people are changing the subject, and not answering your question. So far, everyone has kept prety well on topic, and given you many good reasons to show that your personal interpretation of one verse taken out of context is incorrect. You are free to agree or disagree as you will, but you should either come up with another passage to back your position, or give some counter argument to those already presented to you, trying to show that those interpretations are incorrect. But to simply keep repeating that the question has not been answered when, in fact, it has, is simply disingenuous.

 

[Karen1960]

Leviticus, chapter 26
Reward for Obedience
1 " 'Do not make idols or set up statues or a sacred stone for yourselves, and do not place a carved stone in your land to bow down before it. I am the LORD your God

How then can you have statues!? I love the statues of the sacred heart of Christ and the images of Mary but the bible says that they shouldn’t have been made! How then can you look at this scipture!?

Do Catholcs just ignore this scripture?

I love potted plants and beautiful wooden pews and nice windows and treatments that you see in many Protestant churches.

My point is God said,
“I am The LORD your GOD, (you forgot this part) do not have any strange gods BEFORE Me”.

Find me ONE Catholic who puts his or her statues or images before God. Find me one Catholic Church that put their patron Saint before God.

bet you can’t