Catholic Churches

[chriswilliam]

What are the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church ?

 

[netmilsmom]

chriswilliam:

What are the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church ?

pncc.org/who_beliefs.htm
the Polish Catholic church is not under Rome.

 

[msproule]

The roots of the PNCC took hold around the time that papal infallibility was…infallibly declared! They also deny the supremacy of the Successor of Peter.

Somehow this all came about because Polish immigrants were allegedly not being treated the way they wanted by their local Bishops here in the U.S. A line of Apostolic Succession was maintained through the like-minded, so-called “Old Catholic Church” in Europe.

In short, just another group in schism.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

msproule:

The roots of the PNCC took hold around the time that papal infallibility was…infallibly declared! They also deny the supremacy of the Successor of Peter.

Somehow this all came about because Polish immigrants were allegedly not being treated the way they wanted by their local Bishops here in the U.S. A line of Apostolic Succession was maintained through the like-minded, so-called “Old Catholic Church” in Europe.

In short, just another group in schism.

There is nothing “alleged” about it. The pastoral needs of the Poles, like those of other East European Catholics, Latin and Byzantine, were essentially disregarded by the predominantly Irish and German hierarchy of the Church in the US at the turn of the 20th century.

The unwillingness of the hierarchy to afford these immigrant peoples with clergy who spoke their own languages, despite the fact that they were generally not English-speaking, together with other points of contention over such matters as the ownership of church property, caused the loss of thousands of faithful and resulted in the formation of more of than a half-dozen Churches over the span of years from about 1890 until the 1930s. These included the American Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox Diocese (ACROD), what is now the Orthodox Church in America (OCA), the Polish National Catholic Church (PNCC), and the Croat, Czech, Lithuanian, and Slovak National Catholic Churches (the latter 4 now subsumed into the PNCC).

All in all, it represents a shameful period in the Catholic Church in America.

Many years,

Neil

 

[Irish_Melkite]

chriswilliam:

What are the differences between the Roman Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic Church ?

Chris,

There are a number of issues which have been under discussion by a joint committee of the PNCC hierarchy and the US Conference of Catholic Bishops for about 20 years now. Two volumes of the dialogue have been published to date and I believe the third, covering the past several years’ sessions, is due out shortly.

I’ll try to post a list for you of the principal issues, but I may not be able to do so until late tonight.

Many years,

Neil

 

[MrS]

Irish Melkite:

The unwillingness of the hierarchy to afford these immigrant peoples with clergy who spoke their own languages, despite the fact that they were generally not English-speaking,

Neil

Sounds like a need for an official church language… Like Latin?

However, in those years a missal was probably not available in Polish/Latin. It might have helped with the problem.

 

[msproule]

Irish Melkite:

There is nothing “alleged” about it.

Thanks. Admittedly, I added the word “alleged” after I had written everything else. I did so because there are pieces of the history I do not know. It was not intended to deny any wrongdoing.

That said, I cannot understand why even harsh persecution at the local level would lead one (or a group, in this case) to break ties with Rome.

 

[Irish_Melkite]

msproule:

That said, I cannot understand why even harsh persecution at the local level would lead one (or a group, in this case) to break ties with Rome.

Msproule,

Unfortunately, in an era that lacked the ready communication of today, the local hierarch embodied “the Church” to the faithful (and even the clergy), particularly in the case of those who were hampered in the advancement of their own cause by language, literacy, and cultural barriers.

Many years,

Neil

 

[msproule]

Irish Melkite:

Unfortunately, in an era that lacked the ready communication of today, the local hierarch embodied “the Church” to the faithful (and even the clergy), particularly in the case of those who were hampered in the advancement of their own cause by language, literacy, and cultural barriers.

I understand. It *is *difficult, rather impossible, today for one to understand the situation that existed for others 100 years ago.

Nevertheless, Father Hodur (founder and first “Prime Bishop” of the PNCC) knew fully that there was a Pope in Rome. However, he disagreed with some fundamental principles, among them papal infallibility and supremacy. Therefore, I speculate there was more behind the establishment of the schismatic PNCC than simply nationalism. Can you share any insight?

 

[chriswilliam]

As I understand that the polish people could not get a Polish priest in their church. It was called Polish because it was started by them for them. Anyone could have joined but if you didn’t know Polish what was the use because the mass was in Polish. But today it’s different. Some churches dropped the Polish from the name and call it National Catholic Church,pncc. Now any nationality can join and the mass is in english. they are very close to the RC in theology,but there are some difference.

 

[mgy100]

Land ownership rights played into the problem as well I think.
Also, the PNCC does a kind of Tridentine Mass in English/Polish as well I think. We have PNCC around here. However said, “sounds like a reason for latin” is part of the exact reason these folks felt disenfranchised enough to spilt.
Ok, around here you had Rusyns, Poles, Slovaks, Ukrainians and so on. Almost every Greek Catholic (Ukrainian and Ruthenian) parish split and has an Orthodox church a block or so away. These groups didn’t get along, so consilidating churches obviously wasn’t an option.

 

[AmISearching]

And this is separate from Roman Catholic parishes in areas with lots of Polish-American families who still hold some masses in Polish right?

(My ancestry is Polish (I can make some very good galumkis if you’d like proof! ) and even before I decided to convert, I wanted to go attend a mass in Polish for the cultural aspect of it, even though the only words I know in Polish are “grandma” and “grandpa” and food words!)

Anyway - just wanted to double check so I’d know for sure =)

 

[chriswilliam]

AmISearching?:

And this is separate from Roman Catholic parishes in areas with lots of Polish-American families who still hold some masses in Polish right?

(My ancestry is Polish (I can make some very good galumkis if you’d like proof! ) and even before I decided to convert, I wanted to go attend a mass in Polish for the cultural aspect of it, even though the only words I know in Polish are “grandma” and “grandpa” and food words!)

Anyway - just wanted to double check so I’d know for sure =)

 

[chriswilliam]

chriswilliam:
I am half polish and know no polish.Yes it is separated from the Roman church. Insome parishes they may have a mass in polish.That is if they have a priest that knows polish it isn’t a requirement any more. The two churches were in diaolog for twenty years and are agreeing on most issues. The one they are having issues with are the popes infallabity and married priest and bishops. once they get over them we may be one again.

 

[rwoehmke]

It was also very common in the late 19th and early 20th Century to have parishes to serve particular nationalities. Mass itself might be in Latin, but the sermon, prayers at the foot of the altar, and some of the devotionals would be in the national tongue. This happened mostly in large cities because that was where immigrants concentrated, but even here in Wisconsin, in the City of Cumberland there were two Catholic Churches, St. Anthony for the Italians and a second parish for everyone else who were mostly Irish. Since the 1950’s these parished have pretty much lost their national attachments or been consolidated into other parishes. I seem to recall that there was a concious decision by the bishops to bring this about. Now with the large influx of Latinos Spanish language parishes or at least some of the Masses being offered in Spanish has become quite ordinary.

 

[Patchunky]

MrS:

Sounds like a need for an official church language… Like Latin?

There are actually 4 OFFICIAL LANGUAGES of the Church, with Latin being only 1 of them…

Do you know the other 3???

 

[Brendan]

MrS:

Sounds like a need for an official church language… Like Latin?

However, in those years a missal was probably not available in Polish/Latin. It might have helped with the problem.

This all occured when Latin was the language of liturgy in the Roman Church.

This issue comes in, what language is the homily in? Can a majority Polish speaking parish expect to have a priest assigned who can actually minister to and council his flock in a language they understand. Can they expect a priest that would be able to understand their confession and guide them in avoidance of sin?

Those were the issues that were not being addressed.