Catholic Church's position on Mar Thoma Church?

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malphono said:
I’m not of a maven on this topic, but the Mar Thoma Church (aka Marthomites) is, as far as I know, a Protestantized variant of the Syriac-Orthodox/Syro-Malankara tradition. It seems to have come about due to the efforts of the Anglican missionaries in Kerala, and from what I can see, it looks like a direct result of (read: retaliation for) the reunion of the Syro-Malabars. From what I understand of them, although they claim to maintain proper liturgical tradition (whether that’s true or not I can’t say since I’ve never seen it) their theology is distinctly Protestant.

Neither the Syro-Malankara Church not the Syriac Orthodox Church is in communion with it.
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Just a reminder that I was merely responding to the reference to Syro Malabar Catholic Church in Malphono’s post. Please feel free to read how the discussion developed and then maybe the need I felt to provide a little more information will become clear. Hopefully. Since English is not my mother tongue I’m likely to have misunderstood the depth of some posts. I hope I’m forgiven. I have tried to provide other sources of information than my poorly worded take on them. Of course I realize now there is a sea of information out there that I’m not aware of. The task of separating the truth from invented revisionist history is huge, and I do not feel up to it at the moment. Therefore I have tried to point to sources which count as somewhat reliable.

Any genuine seeker of truth is welcome to be skeptical about anything I write on this forum and check out as many original sources as possible giving different perspectives.
 
The Knanaya Christians are descendants of 72 Judeo-Christian families who migrated from Edessa (or Urfa), the first city state that embraced Christianity, to the Malabar coast in AD 345, under the leadership of a prominent merchant prince Knai Thomman (in English, Thomas of Cana).

They consisted of 400 people men, women and children, from various Syriac-Jewish clans. Included in the group was a Syriac Orthodox Bishop (Mor Joseph of Urfa), priests and deacons. They sailed in three ships headed by a leading ship with the flag of King David. The Syriac-Jews were granted permission to engage in trade and settle down in Kodungallur by the then ruler of Malabar, Cheraman Perumal. The event has been recorded on copper plates given to the community.

According to tradition, Knanaya Christians are also known as Southists (Thekkumbhagar in Malayalam) as they hailed from the southern province of Israel known in the Old Testament as the Kingdom of Judah.

Contemporary Knanaya Customs and Traditions

Many of the Jewish customs are still preserved by the Knanaya people. On the night of passover the Knanaya people have Pesaha-appam (unleavened passover bread) along with Pesaha pal (passover coconut milk). This tradition of Pesaha appam is observed by the entire Knanaya people till this day. The bridal canopy is part of the Knanaya wedding ceremony, while the dead are buried facing the east.

Knanaya Community at Present

Knanaya Christians today belong to two denominations: the first belonging to the Syriac Orthodox Church in India and second to the Syro-Malabar Catholic Church. A Knanaya Syriac Orthodox diocese, established in 1910, is administered by an Arch bishop who reports directly to the Patriach of Antioch of the Syrian Orthodox Church. The Knanaya Catholics and its identity has been acknowledged by the Vatican, by instituting in 1911 a diocese only for the Knanaya Catholic Christians of Kerala. This diocese is called as the Arch Diocese of Kottayam and is in the district of Kottayam in Kerala.

stpetersknanaya.org/history.htm

ukkca.com/Traditional%20Knanaya%20Songs.htm

The version I’m familiar with from Thrissur District in Kerala about this group is that it was led by a Bishop called Mar Thomman (Mar being the title for Bishops in ME) of Knana (for Cana, referring to the place where the group came from). The fact that this group now consists of two denominations, one with allegiance to the Patriarch in Antioch and the other to the Syro Malabar Church indicates they might have been the first to introduce the Syriac version of the Antiochian Liturgy of St James into Kerala. Just a thought, as the introduction of the Antiochian St James Liturgy into Kerala is not so clear to me.
 
Please stop reposting the same information on different threads. If we want to read this we can read it the first time you write it, no need to repost it over and over again.

Do you not yet understand how unnecessary and disruptive that is?
 
This has been an informative thread.I am married to a man from Kerala. We met in India and were married there. I lived with my husband and his family till we came to the States.My husbands family are penticostals. His mom was a mar thoma Catholic from Thirssur. His dad was from the CSI church in Kannur. His parents converted to the Assemblies Of God church. This tread helped me understand his family a little bit more.
 
mar thoma Catholic
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:confused::confused:
Actually Only two rites of Catholics exist in Kerala state ,India -
  1. Syro-Malabar Catholics (SyriaC Christian)
  2. Latin Catholics.
    OTOH ,
    Mar Thoma Church is Protestent by itself(with most of the traits of Anglican church with a pinch of Syrian Orthodox Church).
 
pjk123 said:
:confused::confused:
Actually Only two rites of Catholics exist in Kerala state ,India -
  1. Syro-Malabar Catholics (SyriaC Christian)
  2. Latin Catholics.
    OTOH ,
    Mar Thoma Church is Protestent by itself(with most of the traits of Anglican church with a pinch of Syrian Orthodox Church).
Click to expand...
The new format is throwing me off, I can’t say I like it too much.

There are 3 catholic churches in Kerala. The Syro-Malabar Church, the Syro-Malankara Church and the Latin Church.

I am a former Marthomite in the US who converted to the Syro-Malankara Church. My mother was a member of the church before she married my father. The Mar Thoma is an interesting church to say the least. It is a bridge church between Orthodoxy and Protestantism. From a western perspective, the best way to describe it would be to call it a Malankara-Rite Anglican Church.

The Syriac bells and whistles are there but the theology is too reformed to have any real connection to the East. The church’s main anaphora is a very truncated St. James liturgy. Many of the intercessory prayers to Mary, the saints and the dead have been removed along with many of the references to the Real Presence and the canons are radically shortened as well. Abraham Malpan could not remove all these references since their so embedded in our liturgy but the reformers disavow almost all the Eastern theology that conflicts in any way with the Reformers. However, they do not include the filioque.

The theological views, while overwhelming conservative, run the gamut from Orthodox lite to evangelical. People are relatively free to believe what they want and there is a lack of a clear theological position even among the priests and bishops.

They are in full communion with the Anglicans. However, their Eucharist is not valid nor do their priests have valid ordinations. This is the position of the Catholic, Malankara Orthodox and Malankara Syriac Orthodox Churches. As a former member of the Mar Thoma Church, I was re-chrismated when I came into communion with the Catholic Church.
 

I am sorry!I left out Syro-Malankara Church ,which is also catholic.​

🤷
 
gthever: Thanks for the information. Very interesting church and history. I must admit that the idea of an Oriental liturgy without references to the Saints and Mary is a little disturbing to me. :eek:

Peace and God bless!
 
Aramis said:
Because Christ’s Catholic Church needs to keep reaching out to our misguided brothers in hopes of them coming home to the Catholic Church and the truths it teaches.
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How a misguided church like catholic church can guide a church formed our of reformation and sacrifices?
 
SyroMalankara said:
The “Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar” (aka the Marthoma Church) is NOT A PROTESTANT church that retains a version of the Liturgy of St. James having unchristian things removed. The ways that this schism took place within the Malankara Church is highly controversial and many “Marthoma Church” websites do not mention the conspiracy and intrigue that took place among the main players of this schism - instead focusing on some theological formulations that came about decades later with British assistance.

The political origins of this are evident when one looks are the era of the schism. The British had started interfering in the local government and imported missionaries from the extreme low-church wing of the Church of England/Scotland. At first, the British were content to support the non-Catholic (Orthodox) Church financially, as this would counter the Portuguese influence among the Catholics. But this financial-only “help” didn’t last long. In less than a decade, the Orthodox seminary began to be infiltrated with protestant Church Missionary Society (CMS) missionaries from England. These missionaries considered the high-church wing of their own church to be in theological heresy - so they attempted to foment this same attitude within the St. Thomas (Mar Thoma) Christian community in Kerala. The non-Catholic Metropolitan of Malankara was not having that, so he cut all ties with these folks and told them to keep their seminary. The native priest who succumbed to this protestant influence and financial incentive was named Abraham Panamkuzhy Pakalomattathil of the influencial Pakalomattam family. He was raised by his uncle, Fr. Mathan Thomma - a Syriac scholar and celibate priest, after both his parents died (Rightfully, Fr. Mathan Thomma believed that the Malankara Church was heavily Latinized after the “anti-Synod” of Diamper and would speak about restoring the Church). Abraham was also a vowed celibate and professor of Syriac, but when the British governor (called British Resident, at the time) offered a Rs. 25000 “reward” for the celibate Malankara priests to get married; he become one of the first to take the offer. After this act, the British resident and CMS missionaries considered Rev. Abraham their golden boy. He acted according to CMS teaching and whenever he prayed the Holy Qurbono (Divine Liturgy), he would omit prayers he disagreed with (such as prayers for the deceased, prayers to Saints, prayers referring to Eucharist as Christ’s Real Presence, etc.) Word got around to the Metropolitan of the Malankara Church and Rev. Abraham was ordered to teach the True faith or be excommunicated. Rev. Abraham refused, and secretly sent his nephew Deacon Mathews to Antioch with falsified papers claiming that the Malankara Church had chosen Deacon Mathews to be bishop.

Deacon Mathews, having tricked the Patriarch of Antioch, came back to Kerala as Bishop Mathews Mar Athanasius and claimed jurisdiction over the entire Malankara Church. After his death, with the support of the British Resident and CMS missionaries, his cousin Bishop Thomas Mar Athanasius sued the reigning Malankara Metropolitan. The Patriarch of Antioch got word of this and sailed to Kerala to support the reigning Metropolitan. The Patriarch and reigning Malankara Metropolitan testified against Bishop Mar Athanasius in court, and the court in a split decision, ruled against Bishop Mar Athanasius (the split decision was two local judges for the Patriarch/Malankara Metropolitan and the British Resident for Bishop Mar Athanasius).

This decision left Bishop Athanasius without churches or property, but he had support in small pockets, such as his hometown.

This is how the “Malankara Marthoma Syrian Church of Malabar” (aka the Marthoma Church) was formed.
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The biggest controversy is none other than defecting the orthodox church members to catholic church and naming it as malankara catholic church!! Are you not ashamed to talk like this even if your church is formed out of the dollars provided by the Roman catholic church?? Malankara catholic church is a church with catholic communion, the mother of all the false teachings and worshiping of idols in the name of christianity.
 
gthever said:
The new format is throwing me off, I can’t say I like it too much.

There are 3 catholic churches in Kerala. The Syro-Malabar Church, the Syro-Malankara Church and the Latin Church.

I am a former Marthomite in the US who converted to the Syro-Malankara Church. My mother was a member of the church before she married my father. The Mar Thoma is an interesting church to say the least. It is a bridge church between Orthodoxy and Protestantism. From a western perspective, the best way to describe it would be to call it a Malankara-Rite Anglican Church.

The Syriac bells and whistles are there but the theology is too reformed to have any real connection to the East. The church’s main anaphora is a very truncated St. James liturgy. Many of the intercessory prayers to Mary, the saints and the dead have been removed along with many of the references to the Real Presence and the canons are radically shortened as well. Abraham Malpan could not remove all these references since their so embedded in our liturgy but the reformers disavow almost all the Eastern theology that conflicts in any way with the Reformers. However, they do not include the filioque.

The theological views, while overwhelming conservative, run the gamut from Orthodox lite to evangelical. People are relatively free to believe what they want and there is a lack of a clear theological position even among the priests and bishops.

They are in full communion with the Anglicans. However, their Eucharist is not valid nor do their priests have valid ordinations. This is the position of the Catholic, Malankara Orthodox and Malankara Syriac Orthodox Churches. As a former member of the Mar Thoma Church, I was re-chrismated when I came into communion with the Catholic Church.
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You are now contaminated by joining the the church who is the mother of all the unchristian customs like making the idols of saints Jesus, Mary etc etc and etc.
 
gthever said:
The new format is throwing me off, I can’t say I like it too much.

There are 3 catholic churches in Kerala. The Syro-Malabar Church, the Syro-Malankara Church and the Latin Church.

I am a former Marthomite in the US who converted to the Syro-Malankara Church. My mother was a member of the church before she married my father. The Mar Thoma is an interesting church to say the least. It is a bridge church between Orthodoxy and Protestantism. From a western perspective, the best way to describe it would be to call it a Malankara-Rite Anglican Church.

The Syriac bells and whistles are there but the theology is too reformed to have any real connection to the East. The church’s main anaphora is a very truncated St. James liturgy. Many of the intercessory prayers to Mary, the saints and the dead have been removed along with many of the references to the Real Presence and the canons are radically shortened as well. Abraham Malpan could not remove all these references since their so embedded in our liturgy but the reformers disavow almost all the Eastern theology that conflicts in any way with the Reformers. However, they do not include the filioque.

The theological views, while overwhelming conservative, run the gamut from Orthodox lite to evangelical. People are relatively free to believe what they want and there is a lack of a clear theological position even among the priests and bishops.

They are in full communion with the Anglicans. However, their Eucharist is not valid nor do their priests have valid ordinations. This is the position of the Catholic, Malankara Orthodox and Malankara Syriac Orthodox Churches. As a former member of the Mar Thoma Church, I was re-chrismated when I came into communion with the Catholic Church.
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The validity of Eucharist is determined by the Lord Jesus, not Pope of Rome. The marthoma church Eucharist do valid and the priests DO have valid ordination. The throne of St Thomas is equal as the throne of peter. You are not re-chrismated, that do not mean you are in christ, now you are with pope thats all.
 
“malankara marthoma syrian” church is a oriental syrian church which was founded by saint thomas during his missionary work in india in AD52.marthoma church is oldest christian church in india and it is not a protestant church.actually catholics in india was derived from marthoma during the missionary works of foreign catholic missionaries…when chatholic missionaries came to india they saw a christian community wich is indipendent and ruled by the malankara metropolitan who is successor of st thomas .missionaries who came to india tried to conquer the marthoma syrians with the help of Portuguese who ruled india that time.but marthoma syrians protested aganist the movement of catholic missionaries and they take pledge that they will never accept pope and this pledge was known as “koonan kurishu sathyam”. Marthoma church is not a anglican or anglicised church.marthoma church only supported anglican missionaries for educate indians by founding schools .marthoma church never supported liturgies,doctorines and beliefs of anglican church.marthoma church have ecuminical relation with anglican church, syrian church of antioch , indian orthodox , malabar indipendent syrian church… syro malankara catholic church in ind
was derived from indian orthodox church when bishop mar evanious joined catholic church.
 
gthever said:
The new format is throwing me off, I can’t say I like it too much.

There are 3 catholic churches in Kerala. The Syro-Malabar Church, the Syro-Malankara Church and the Latin Church.

I am a former Marthomite in the US who converted to the Syro-Malankara Church. My mother was a member of the church before she married my father. The Mar Thoma is an interesting church to say the least. It is a bridge church between Orthodoxy and Protestantism. From a western perspective, the best way to describe it would be to call it a Malankara-Rite Anglican Church.

The Syriac bells and whistles are there but the theology is too reformed to have any real connection to the East. The church’s main anaphora is a very truncated St. James liturgy. Many of the intercessory prayers to Mary, the saints and the dead have been removed along with many of the references to the Real Presence and the canons are radically shortened as well. Abraham Malpan could not remove all these references since their so embedded in our liturgy but the reformers disavow almost all the Eastern theology that conflicts in any way with the Reformers. However, they do not include the filioque.

The theological views, while overwhelming conservative, run the gamut from Orthodox lite to evangelical. People are relatively free to believe what they want and there is a lack of a clear theological position even among the priests and bishops.

They are in full communion with the Anglicans. However, their Eucharist is not valid nor do their priests have valid ordinations. This is the position of the Catholic, Malankara Orthodox and Malankara Syriac Orthodox Churches. As a former member of the Mar Thoma Church, I was re-chrismated when I came into communion with the Catholic Church.
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Marthoma syrian church is a oriental syrian church founded by the st thomas the apostle. It is not anglican or protestant church.the priests have valid ordinations.the church have ecuminical relation ship between church of antioch mar athanesius and some other old bishops of marthoma syrian was ordinated by antioch its self there for if marthoma syrian is not valid the the church of antioch (syrian orthodox) also will not be valid. Marthoma church is older than catholic church in india and note that chatholics in kerala was derived from marthoma church during the time portugal ruled india.

Proud to be an member malankara marthoma syrian chruch wich was founded by st thomas the apostole
 
gthever said:
The new format is throwing me off, I can’t say I like it too much.

There are 3 catholic churches in Kerala. The Syro-Malabar Church, the Syro-Malankara Church and the Latin Church.

I am a former Marthomite in the US who converted to the Syro-Malankara Church. My mother was a member of the church before she married my father. The Mar Thoma is an interesting church to say the least. It is a bridge church between Orthodoxy and Protestantism. From a western perspective, the best way to describe it would be to call it a Malankara-Rite Anglican Church.

The Syriac bells and whistles are there but the theology is too reformed to have any real connection to the East. The church’s main anaphora is a very truncated St. James liturgy. Many of the intercessory prayers to Mary, the saints and the dead have been removed along with many of the references to the Real Presence and the canons are radically shortened as well. Abraham Malpan could not remove all these references since their so embedded in our liturgy but the reformers disavow almost all the Eastern theology that conflicts in any way with the Reformers. However, they do not include the filioque.

The theological views, while overwhelming conservative, run the gamut from Orthodox lite to evangelical. People are relatively free to believe what they want and there is a lack of a clear theological position even among the priests and bishops.

They are in full communion with the Anglicans. However, their Eucharist is not valid nor do their priests have valid ordinations. This is the position of the Catholic, Malankara Orthodox and Malankara Syriac Orthodox Churches. As a former member of the Mar Thoma Church, I was re-chrismated when I came into communion with the Catholic Church.
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Ghosty said:
gthever: Thanks for the information. Very interesting church and history. I must admit that the idea of an Oriental liturgy without references to the Saints and Mary is a little disturbing to me. :eek:

Peace and God bless!
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Marthoma syians accepts and give all importants to saints and mother mary liturgy contains the references of mother mary like “song of mary” (kanyaka mariyathinte paatu)…but marthomite never workship or make as mediators…why because saint thomas never reffered that and these are unknown to the ancient church before the arrival of catholics and jacobites in india…

Pround to be an marthomite syrian christian
 
malphono said:
I’m not of a maven on this topic, but the Mar Thoma Church (aka Marthomites) is, as far as I know, a Protestantized variant of the Syriac-Orthodox/Syro-Malankara tradition. It seems to have come about due to the efforts of the Anglican missionaries in Kerala, and from what I can see, it looks like a direct result of (read: retaliation for) the reunion of the Syro-Malabars. From what I understand of them, although they claim to maintain proper liturgical tradition (whether that’s true or not I can’t say since I’ve never seen it) their theology is distinctly Protestant.

Neither the Syro-Malankara Church not the Syriac Orthodox Church is in communion with it.
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Marthoma syrian church is not at all a protestant or anglican church it is an oriental syrian church founded by the st thomas the apostole. actually people posting that marthoma was a protestant church never heared about the church or never visited marthoma church.

There for before posting some thing about marthoma syrians please try to study the history and other details of church.

Note that oriental syrians (marthoma, jacobite, indian orthodox) are not at all communion with catholics because catholics tried to conquer and rule the church but oriental churches in india make a pledge that they never accept pope.the pledge that was taken is known as koonan kurishu sathyam.
 
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