Catholic Convert Doubting

[Chez]

3- Eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin and now is not… You, my friend need to learn obedience and humility!..

it was and now is not. what does obedience and humility have to do with it.
p.s. using “my friend” in this way is not christian. nor humble

If tomorrow Jesus Christ, though His Vicar, our Pope, proclaimed that chewing gum on Saturday is a mortal sin… We, as Catholic’s MUST NOT chew gum on Saturday!!!
That is “obedience” to The Lord!

If after one month, God see’s that we have humbled ourselves to His will and He proclaims, through His Vicar, that we may now chew gum on Saturday, that means we may now chew gum on Saturday without committing a mortal sin!

It is not necessarily the gum chewing that “was” offensive to God. It was our disobedience and pride that was offensive to God!

As I have stated before, you are protesting against the Catholic Church!
If you are truly a Catholic, get back into communion with the Church!

I realize that a better Catholic than myself would much kinder and more patient. But reading some of the views of My fellow Catholic’s on this thread, is truly scary!

And yet!.. After 2000 years of scandal within the Church, attacks upon the Church… And malformed Catholic’s. she is still with us, just as Christ promised.

I sure do wish you could see the beauty and wonder in that.

God Bless!

 

[awsiukiewicz]

Your confusion is understandable, because you meet the current Church crisis. A liberal priest made that my family left the Church. I recommend that you may go to a tridentine mass(also know as the extraordinary form), usually the people there are not conservative, they are traditional. Conservative is not really Catholic.

What are you saying…? “conservative is not really Catholic” …what ? At any rate…I wonder what you think when you think that traditionalist…or,those who attend the Tridentine, or, extraordinary form of the Mass are not conservative…I would almost disagree as most of the individuals including myself who prefer the extraordinary form of the Liturgy are quite conservative…pls explain a little more about what you mean…PAX

 

[PeaceInChrist]

Christ queried and was crucified for it. Do you really think that Christ does not expect us to also query. and do you really believe that He would say “you are not in communion” because i use the intellect that He gave to me.
His followers established Christianity. Christ did not establish Catholicism. This is a man made terminology. Nor did he expect the popes to regale themselves in gold vestments and guccii slippers and have various mistresses. These are human failings, and the leaders of the church have not been immune.
’ render to god the things that are god and to man the things that are man’
unfortunately i think that too many catholics have fallen into the trap of rendering to man the things that are god’s.
and i see you have avoided the mention of paedophilia which is an undeniable blot on catholicism.

Actually, the term Catholic was used to describe the Church in the early second century (100s). It was simply a way of describing that the Church is one and universal.

You claim you use your intellect. How, then, if there is no hierarchy or dogma, is the Church to continue? Even Christ said that we must obey the Commandments if we wish to abide in Him. He also told the Apostles that they had authority to forgive sins and bind and loose (dogma).

I really, truly am failing to see how obeying Church teaching is rendering to man what is God’s.

As to the subject of pedophelia, God said that there would be wolves in sheep’s clothing. He never, not once, denied that members of the Church would sin, and neither has the Church itself. So, if the dogmas of the Church are true, and people within the Church (including leaders) fail to abide by the Truth, how does this affect the Truth? It is still just that: Truth.

My friend, your intellect is clouded by cynicism and scorn for the very Church that Christ gave us. If you truly believe that the Catholic Church is not who She says She is, I’d really recommend seeking counsel with a priest. I wouldn’t want to remain in a faith if I was doggedly opposed to its tenants, at least until I asked someone who could answer satisfactorily. Please, open your heart to the possibility that the Church, while marred with imperfect leaders, does have the Truth in its teachings (faith and morals), and then seek counsel with an orthodox (adheres to teachings) priest.

 

[Chez]

Actually, the term Catholic was used to describe the Church in the early second century (100s). It was simply a way of describing that the Church is one and universal.

You claim you use your intellect. How, then, if there is no hierarchy or dogma, is the Church to continue? Even Christ said that we must obey the Commandments if we wish to abide in Him. He also told the Apostles that they had authority to forgive sins and bind and loose (dogma).

I really, truly am failing to see how obeying Church teaching is rendering to man what is God’s.

As to the subject of pedophelia, God said that there would be wolves in sheep’s clothing. He never, not once, denied that members of the Church would sin, and neither has the Church itself. So, if the dogmas of the Church are true, and people within the Church (including leaders) fail to abide by the Truth, how does this affect the Truth? It is still just that: Truth.

My friend, your intellect is clouded by cynicism and scorn for the very Church that Christ gave us. If you truly believe that the Catholic Church is not who She says She is, I’d really recommend seeking counsel with a priest. I wouldn’t want to remain in a faith if I was doggedly opposed to its tenants, at least until I asked someone who could answer satisfactorily. Please, open your heart to the possibility that the Church, while marred with imperfect leaders, does have the Truth in its teachings (faith and morals), and then seek counsel with an orthodox (adheres to teachings) priest.

Hey PeaceInChrist… My friend! (Some people think that term, un-Christian.??)
Very nice reply.
One of these days, by God’s Grace, I will learn to be as patient and understanding as kind people like yourself.
Until then, you folks will have to carry some of my weight!.. I’m trying!
Thank You!

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

3- Eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin and now is not… You, my friend need to learn obedience and humility!..

it was and now is not. what does obedience and humility have to do with it.
p.s. using “my friend” in this way is not christian. nor humble

 

[Lion_of_Narnia]

3- Eating meat on Friday was a mortal sin and now is not… You, my friend need to learn obedience and humility!..

it was and now is not. what does obedience and humility have to do with it.
p.s. using “my friend” in this way is not christian. nor humble

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Churchlover,

Welcome to CAF! I think yo will find a wealth of informaiton about our Faith - and this site will indeed become a real lesson for your - each time you open this site.

I tend to think that Devil works extra hard to get those who cooperate with God’s Grace to follow Him through good times and bad. The Devil can not handle loyalty and perservenance in the love of Christ and neighbor. People promoting the Love of God are ‘stealing’ away his clients!

God bless and enjoy the journey - it is only much later that we see this as part of the destination.

God bless

Just to encourage you…I have been waiting close to 13 years to complete my journey home…waiting for my spouse to complete some work needed regarding a previous marriage. During this long spell of delay, I have contended with many discouragements, including infrequent Mass, little or no family support or interest, downright hostility from some, and inner struggles over why it is taking so long. Through it all, the Lord is teaching me patience and refining me for eternity, praise His Name.
I too have come on a long journey to get here…I too am a convert from a varied background, including Methodism, fundamentalism, and several flavors of Baptist faith communities. Despite your bad priest (I would not seek him out for any spiritual advice, especially regarding Church teachings!!), the Mass is still the Mass, the Eucharist is still the Eucharist, and Holy Communion is still Holy Communion, no matter how reprobate the priest…his Holy Orders remain.
Having survived the onslaught of moral relativism that is growing more rampant daily, I turn to the Scriptures and the Catechism for the Church’s teaching, and run everything through that filter. Also, the Rosary and Daily Offering prayer can really build your faith.
So sorry you’ve had a rough time! I hope you don’t give up on the Church! After the intial honeymoon, it sounds like you are disillusioned over the imperfect members of the Church…me too!
I also find great support on a number of orthodox Catholic websites, including Catholic Answers Forums! Holy reading will also build up your faith…The Journey Home is another great resource (EWTN).
I’ll be praying for you and the priest in question!

 

[rmtracey]

the pope is infallible only on matters of doctrine. if he said we are not to chew gum on saturdays, it could be treated as rubbish and ignored. obedience to the lord does not mean obeying stupidity. this is the excuse the nazis used.
pride is the inordinate belief that only you and your views are correct.
i am here posing questions, not seeking to change peoples’ opinions.
but it appears if i pose a question that does not fit in with others perceptions i am accused of not being a catholic.
Christ posed lots of questions to the Jewish hierarchy. If you like he was disobedient to the then perceived teaching, and he also pointed out the pride of the pharisee, who considered himself to be a good jew, and better than others. unfortunately too many catholics are like the pharisee. too much pride and unwillingness to learn.

If tomorrow Jesus Christ, though His Vicar, our Pope, proclaimed that chewing gum on Saturday is a mortal sin… We, as Catholic’s MUST NOT chew gum on Saturday!!!
That is “obedience” to The Lord!

If after one month, God see’s that we have humbled ourselves to His will and He proclaims, through His Vicar, that we may now chew gum on Saturday, that means we may now chew gum on Saturday without committing a mortal sin!

It is not necessarily the gum chewing that “was” offensive to God. It was our disobedience and pride that was offensive to God!

As I have stated before, you are protesting against the Catholic Church!
If you are truly a Catholic, get back into communion with the Church!

I realize that a better Catholic than myself would much kinder and more patient. But reading some of the views of My fellow Catholic’s on this thread, is truly scary!

And yet!.. After 2000 years of scandal within the Church, attacks upon the Church… And malformed Catholic’s. she is still with us, just as Christ promised.

I sure do wish you could see the beauty and wonder in that.

God Bless!

 

[Chez]

the pope is infallible only on matters of doctrine. if he said we are not to chew gum on saturdays, it could be treated as rubbish and ignored. obedience to the lord does not mean obeying stupidity. this is the excuse the nazis used.
pride is the inordinate belief that only you and your views are correct.
i am here posing questions, not seeking to change peoples’ opinions.
but it appears if i pose a question that does not fit in with others perceptions i am accused of not being a catholic.
Christ posed lots of questions to the Jewish hierarchy. If you like he was disobedient to the then perceived teaching, and he also pointed out the pride of the pharisee, who considered himself to be a good jew, and better than others. unfortunately too many catholics are like the pharisee. too much pride and unwillingness to learn.

You write that you are simply, “posing questions”, when you are in fact, making statements.

You believe that it is perfectly fine for a Priest to step out of the box and preach contrary to Catholic teachings.

You believe that it acceptable for us Catholics to make up our own rules. Follow the one’s we are okay with, and ignore those that we don’t agree with.

If you are looking for answers about your Catholic Faith, go find a good, orthodox Catholic RCIA program, and attend it weekly. Ask all the questions you wish and they will be answered for you.

With regard to chewing gum on Saturday. That was simply to make a point.

With regard to the Pope’s infallibility you write…
“The Pope is infallible only on maters of doctrine”??

The Pope proclaims doctrine. (rarely)

This is a snippet from Vatacan II regarding papal infallibility.

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope “enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32),
he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter.”

Ours is not to ask God why He does what He does! (through His Vicar and otherwise)… I suppose we can ask Him privately. But ultimately, we are to humble ourselves, and obey.

I really hope that some day you will just let go of all that pride, fear and stubbornness… Just let go. Give yourself to God.
It doesn’t mean you are weak… It doesn’t mean you are brainwashed and you won’t lose your individuality.

I’m starting to believe that you just might be a Catholic… Malformed at best, but somewhere deep inside, I think you know that the Catholic Church is the One True Church. The pillar and bulwark of the Truth.

It just might be time for you to come home.
God Bless.

 

[rmtracey]

With regard to the Pope’s infallibility you write…
“The Pope is infallible only on maters of doctrine”??

The Pope proclaims doctrine. (rarely)

This is a snippet from Vatacan II regarding papal infallibility.

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope “enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32),
he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter.”

‘he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals’

I was taught that the pope was infallible only on matters of doctrine.Other than this he is as fallible as any other man, Your quote seems to confirm this . Or do you means otherwise

 

[Chez]

With regard to the Pope’s infallibility you write…
“The Pope is infallible only on maters of doctrine”??

The Pope proclaims doctrine. (rarely)

This is a snippet from Vatacan II regarding papal infallibility.

Infallibility belongs in a special way to the pope as head of the bishops (Matt. 16:17–19; John 21:15–17). As Vatican II remarked, it is a charism the pope “enjoys in virtue of his office, when, as the supreme shepherd and teacher of all the faithful, who confirms his brethren in their faith (Luke 22:32),
he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals. Therefore his definitions, of themselves, and not from the consent of the Church, are justly held irreformable, for they are pronounced with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, an assistance promised to him in blessed Peter.”

‘he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals’

I was taught that the pope was infallible only on matters of doctrine.Other than this he is as fallible as any other man, Your quote seems to confirm this . Or do you means otherwise

Let’s take a closer look at what Vatican ll says, and what you think it says.

Vatican ll says…“he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals”

That means that the Pope,(the Vicar of Christ) with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, proclaims doctrine. Such as, eating meat on Friday is a mortal sin… And now, eating meat on Friday is no longer a mortal sin.

You seem to be saying that the Pope is only infallible with regard to doctrine already established by Christ… If I’m wrong, forgive me.

I understand how difficult is is for us humans to understand why at one point, God would say eating meat on Friday is a mortal sin, and later say, it is now okay.

These are the times when you, as an idividual Catholic can think outside the box.
Let your mind wonder… Maybe God saw a problem with the availability of meat throughout the world at that time. Imagine how much meat it would save if every Catholic in the world doesn’t eat meat in just one day! Now, multiply that by 52, and that by how ever many years it was.

What ever the reason, It’s not important, and it may not be for us to ever know.

What we do need to know is, that He is an all knowing, all loving God. And whatever He does, he does out of love, and with the best intentions for our souls.

That’s funny… It just popped in my head that a few years back, the speed limit here in California was 55. Now it’s 65!.. I wonder if all those people who got a ticket driving 65 can get a refund?!

God Bless!
P.S.- Yes, other than that, the Pope is as fallible as any other man.
Although, he sure seems a lot nicer than most!

 

[rmtracey]

i said that the pope is only infallible on matters of doctrine.nowhere did i qualify this

first you seemed to disagree with this. finally you seem to accept this. Even worse you put your own comments onto mine in an attempt to give it a totally different meaning and justify your own reasoning.

Actually the italian fisherman were struggling and this was a way to help them.

Let’s take a closer look at what Vatican ll says, and what you think it says.

Vatican ll says…“he proclaims by a definitive act some doctrine of faith or morals”

That means that the Pope,(the Vicar of Christ) with the assistance of the Holy Spirit, proclaims doctrine. Such as, eating meat on Friday is a mortal sin… And now, eating meat on Friday is no longer a mortal sin.

You seem to be saying that the Pope is only infallible with regard to doctrine already established by Christ… If I’m wrong, forgive me.

I understand how difficult is is for us humans to understand why at one point, God would say eating meat on Friday is a mortal sin, and later say, it is now okay.

These are the times when you, as an idividual Catholic can think outside the box.
Let your mind wonder… Maybe God saw a problem with the availability of meat throughout the world at that time. Imagine how much meat it would save if every Catholic in the world doesn’t eat meat in just one day! Now, multiply that by 52, and that by how ever many years it was.

What ever the reason, It’s not important, and it may not be for us to ever know.

What we do need to know is, that He is an all knowing, all loving God. And whatever He does, he does out of love, and with the best intentions for our souls.

That’s funny… It just popped in my head that a few years back, the speed limit here in California was 55. Now it’s 65!.. I wonder if all those people who got a ticket driving 65 can get a refund?!

God Bless!
P.S.- Yes, other than that, the Pope is as fallible as any other man.
Although, he sure seems a lot nicer than most!

 

[system]

Hi,

I feel sorry for your trouble in the Church. I pray that the Lord gives you strength and peace of mind.

The Lord had a purpose on sending you in that parish. You are now called for as a teacher, my fellow brothers were right. You can teach the truth to the congregation. I don’t take it as a negative event at all, it is a challenge. The Lord calls you to be a salt and light in that parish.
Go and enlighten your fellow brothers and sisters.

You will not be alone. The truth of the church is with you…

May the Spirit of the Lord be with you always brother…

I am with you in the fight for truth in the Church

 

[Chez]

i said that the pope is only infallible on matters of doctrine.nowhere did i qualify this

first you seemed to disagree with this. finally you seem to accept this. Even worse you put your own comments onto mine in an attempt to give it a totally different meaning and justify your own reasoning.

Actually the italian fisherman were struggling and this was a way to help them.

You totally lost me on the first portion of your statement… I honestly could not understand what you wrote.

The last line I understood… God has a soft spot for fishermen… That’s logical!

God Bless!
P.S.- I wanted to make sure I wasn’t misstating the facts. I must apologize… Not eating meat on Friday was a discipline, not a doctrine. However, the Church does have authority to inact disciplines… Just as our government has authority to inact speed limits.

 

[rmtracey]

i agree. not eating meat on a friday was not a doctrine. it was a discipline. but here i am lost . is a ‘discipline’ god’s word or simply a proclamation of man.

You totally lost me on the first portion of your statement… I honestly could not understand what you wrote.

The last line I understood… God has a soft spot for fishermen… That’s logical!

God Bless!
P.S.- I wanted to make sure I wasn’t misstating the facts. I must apologize… Not eating meat on Friday was a discipline, not a doctrine. However, the Church does have authority to inact disciplines… Just as our government has authority to inact speed limits.

 

[Chez]

i agree. not eating meat on a friday was not a doctrine. it was a discipline. but here i am lost . is a ‘discipline’ god’s word or simply a proclamation of man.

---

Discipline: Any rule, regulation, law and direction set down by the authority of the Church for guiding the faithful toward the perfection of the Gospel in their own lives and the life of the Church as a whole.​

You really should try to get pass that “man” issue!

I could see if the Catholic Church was a couple hundred years old… But She is 2000 years old! She was established by Jesus Christ.

Don’t you think it’s kind of strange that you think so highly of Obama… The guy who says you MUST buy health insurance… You MUST distribute your privet property (money) to people of his choosing… The Catholic Church MUST pay for people’s birth control… You may NOT do as you wish with your property if there is a natural pond on your land… You may NOT buy certain types of lightbulbs, toilets and cars… And on, and on, and on!

You don’t think a thing in the world about this “man” imposing all his rules and regulations on people… But The Catholic Church, The Mystical Body of Christ, you have this big problem with guiding us on faith and morals!

I just don’t get it!
Oh well,
God Bless!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, PeaceInChrist,

I think you are close to a lot of areas … just not quite there.

Yes, indeed - Christ is God! As far as the Jewish leaders were concerned - Christ was not a ‘liberal’ - but they saw Him as a ‘rebel’ as in being in rebelion towards the way they lived their lives (breaking the spirit of the law - and the law itself when it suited them). Christ did respect that they were the ones who sat on the Chair of Moses (Matt 23).

Jesus Christ was born and died a Jew! The term ‘Christian’ probably is not really appropriate because this means one who follows Christ - and one can not follow themself. But, while a Jew (to the best of my knowledge, He never stopped being a Jew) He founded the Catholic Chruch on Peter (Matt 16) - and promised that it would always have the Spirit of Truth (John 15). So, as I see it, the authority of the Catholic Church comes directly from Christ’s actions - and not from any commandments He gave (e.g.,Obey the 10 Commandments, follow the Beatitudes, love God with your whole heart…, your neighbor as yourself, etc.) And, it is because Christ is God that Catholic dogma will never be false.

Often, I find it is difficult to get all of my thoughts down properly on a post… and sometimes my clarifications are not that helpful, either!

God bless

My friend, Jesus was not a liberal. He is I AM. He is God. The Pharisees had made many laws that were NOT of God, and indeed even Moses made more laws than just the Ten Commandments. But Christ came to fulfill the Law (not the laws of man). The Commandments still apply, and they flow from the Greatest Commandment. The faith and moral teaching of the Church flows from these Commandments.

Jesus also prayed in the temples and read scripture, and celebrated Passover, as was tradition. He fulfilled the Ten Commandments. He even gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sin and teach with His authority. We believe that His Church is guided by the Holy Spirit, as He promised, and that we shall not err in faith and morals. Our dogma will never be false because it flows from God. This is one of the most basic tenants of Catholicism, and if you believe the Church is capable of preaching false doctrine, or that it is not required of its members to believe in dogma, then you should perhaps seek instruction from an orthodox priest. The views you hold are not Catholic at all, but are heterodox and prevent communion with the Church.

 

[rmtracey]

render to man the things that are man’s and to god the things that are are god’s.

Christ was not averse to using the word.

and 200 or 2000 yrs, both are miniscule in terms of this planet’s existence, and irrelevant.

and i completely fail to see where obama fits into catholic apologetics.

---

Discipline: Any rule, regulation, law and direction set down by the authority of the Church for guiding the faithful toward the perfection of the Gospel in their own lives and the life of the Church as a whole.​

You really should try to get pass that “man” issue!

I could see if the Catholic Church was a couple hundred years old… But She is 2000 years old! She was established by Jesus Christ.

Don’t you think it’s kind of strange that you think so highly of Obama… The guy who says you MUST buy health insurance… You MUST distribute your privet property (money) to people of his choosing… The Catholic Church MUST pay for people’s birth control… You may NOT do as you wish with your property if there is a natural pond on your land… You may NOT buy certain types of lightbulbs, toilets and cars… And on, and on, and on!

You don’t think a thing in the world about this “man” imposing all his rules and regulations on people… But The Catholic Church, The Mystical Body of Christ, you have this big problem with guiding us on faith and morals!

I just don’t get it!
Oh well,
God Bless!

 

[tqualey]

Hi, Rmtracey,

Maybe we need to look a little harder…

Often we try to fit 1st Century realities with 21st Century expectations. No, Matt 16 does not have Christ presenting Peter with a Charter and Articles of Incorporation for the Catholic Church along with a Policy and Procedure Manual. What Christ did do, however, is to give the Prince of the Apostles a ‘signed blank check’ in that he - sinful Peter and his sinful successors - could make any change or change any change they thought necessary to make (or unmake). What Christ did do was to give His Word that this was so and gave Peter the Keys as an outward symbol of this unique authority.

You launch into a list of disconnected items trying to show a conflict in the Chruch’s authority - and this just is a mismash of items. Christ did not ‘convert’ to anything - and I do not think you really meant this as such - but to show that others have said this and you don’ believe it. Seriously, Christ is God - what could He possibly ‘convert’ to?

Luther was quite correct - the sale of indulgences was wrong - and those who did sell them were at fault - and they have stood before the Judgment Seat of God and have been held accountable. Luther was quite incorrect, however, in that selling indulgences was NEVER the teaching of the Catholic Church - and Luther’s rebelion from the Church have lead many away from Chirst to which he, too, has stood before God’s Judgment and been held accountable.

As stated earlier, the Church has the authority to bind and lose - and as part of this God-given authority, the requirement for not eating meat on Friday - under pain of mortal sin for those who defy the Chruch in this area - was validly made. Those who wished to defy the authority of God’s Church and died in that state of mortal sin have been found guilty - and Hell was the penalty. Today, we are still under the obligation to do penance - and part of that can be abstaining from meat on Friday. Those Catholics who willfully eat meat on Friday do not sin. The Church is free to bind and lose - and this is just what she did as per the authority given by Christ in Matt 16.

I think the form rules are the unjustified attacks on the Chruch and its ministers. Certain members of the clergy have publicly sinned and criticizing them for their public sins and the public scandal they have caused is not banned. What you think the hierarchy would prefer is a matter of personal opinion - I think we can all say that the hierarchy would appreciate all clergy and religious living a life the closely followed Christ.

And, your admiration for Obama is equally irrelevant - this abortion promoting President has 1,521 more days in Office. And, yes, I am counting.

Actually, the Church dates its teachings to over 1,000 years prior to the Middle Ages! I would suggest that you take a good look at these teachings before you criticize them.

Good bless

No where can i find that christ established the Catholic church. His followers established christianity.
Using the word ‘right’ as an exclamation point does not make a statement ‘right’

Jesus was a Jew and died a Jew. But then i have been told ,in all seriousness, that he converted to Catholicism before he died.

Martin Luther disagreed with the church selling indulgences. was he or the church right.

Not many years back , eating meat on friday was a mortal sin. are those that ate meat confined to hell, but since then , those that eat meat on friday get off scott free.

In this forum i have seen stated that we should not criticise the clergy. does that mean we should ignore the great niumber who seem to think that paedophilia is a worthwhile substitute for ‘celibacy’.
Certainly the hierarchy of the church would prefer that it should not be discussed.

And much as i admire Obama, i fail to see how he comes into this discussion.

As Catholics we should think . If we remain mired in the middle ages, then our religion will become more and more irrelevant.

 

[Dooraghero]

Liberalism within the Catholic Church must be akin to what I have seen in the course of my journey in the Protestant Church. I do not understand the mindset of people who oppose orthodox belief, indeed, not only oppose, but seek to change the traditional beliefs within a given church. It would seem to me, if an individual or group of individuals was vehemently opposed to orthodox tenets, they would simply leave and perhaps form their own liberal “church.” Unfortunately, this rarely occurs. There must be some kind of perverse delight in subverting long-held teachings, a warped joy in seeing others lead astray. Liberals may very well take great pride in perverting the Word, creating a god in their own image, and experiencing a rush of power as they sow their seeds of discord amongst the brethren but they may, in fact, be but automatons in the service of the Enemy as he sets the eschatological table. I am not all that familiar with Catholic eschatology, but my understanding of the end times from my Protestant perspective is that there will be a great apostasy that overtakes the Church prior to the “Great and Terrible Day of the Lord.” This is specified in 2 Thessalonians 2:1-3, “Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.” Thus, though liberals in any manifestation, be it ecclesiastical, political, or cultural seek power above all else in the name of “freedom,” they have placed themselves in chains unwittingly and have sought to bring as many along with them into the place of existential and eternal punishment. It is a spirit of antichrist at work here. It’s like an article I read a few years back written by a former Satanist who had converted to Christianity. This individual was actively infiltrating various churches with the expressed purpose of sowing the seeds of discord and sought to turn as many from the true faith as possible. He stated that the reason for this was that Satan had promised him authority over a great many souls in Hell. It was deceived thinking upon his part. Indeed, during the course of his church forays he began to see that he was in fact being tricked by the Father of lies and that Hell was not going to be a place of continuous partying. He eventually repented and converted to Christianity. I would not say that most liberals would have this conscious intention of bringing many to destruction. But on a subconscious level, the same spirit is operating at some level. Yet, there is always hope. Such individuals like the converted Satanist, could have an epiphany, repent, and be brought back into orthodox fellowship. However, such conversion would be unlikely in churches that have already caved into liberal theology where the full truth is rarely if ever spoken. Indeed, the great apostasy may have already begun. In Protestantism, it has begun to spread like wildfire with self-help teachings, the omission of any reference to the place of eternal punishment, and the prevalent message of everyone being saved- even those of other religions such as Islam, Hinduism, and Buddhism. Even now, many of the central tenets of these religions are being woven into the fabric of the contemporary Protestant Church- most notable is the combination of Islam and Christianity or Chrislam. These are indeed dark times for the Church. “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect if it were possible” (Matthew 24:24). Are false signs and wonders taking place now? You bet! Never having attended a Catholic church, I am unsure of what is taking place but I personally experienced a false but very real manifestation in a Pentecostal church one night- the phenomena commonly known as “slain in the spirit.” I remember this evangelist touching my forehead and descending into smoky blackness. I remember thinking “If this is from God, shouldn’t there be light?” But all I saw was black, billowing smoke. When I regained consciousness, I tried to get up but it was like electricity began to course through my body and I was in the midst of spasms on the floor that only gradually waned. I left greatly disturbed. I knew that this was not from God no matter how many of the faithful were trying to tell me what a great thing had just happened to me. I began researching the phenomena and found that this same thing happens in Far Eastern religions- chakra or awakening the inner serpent. I repented of this thing right away and asked the Good Lord to protect me from any infiltration of the Enemy into my being. In churches where experience has become the sum total of one’s Christianity, the congregants become easy fodder for the Enemy. Only a sound, balanced church with both love and orthodox teaching can circumvent the great apostasy that seems to have begun.