Catholic Convert Doubting

  • Thread starter Thread starter SetonGirl
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
A doubting Catholic convert came to this forum for help. While I have not read all the posts, I have seen a huge argument between 2 people develop. How is this a response of loving help and compassion for the person who requested guidance? People, please take this argument somewhere else! It must be discouraging to anyone who reads it, especially someone having a serious crisis of faith. This argument is selfish and is not a reflection of Catholic teaching. Please take a humility pill, step down from the soap box, and go pray. I’ll be praying for you.
Dear Parvana,

Believe me when I tell you, it is not humility pills I need… What I need is a good strong dose of patients!

No, you evidentially did not read all the posts! If you did, you would have read some of the most outrageous things about the Catholic Faith you’ve ever read… Coming from someone calling themselves Catholic!

I do not care where I am, what I am doing, or what thread I happen to be in! I will defend the Catholic Church with my life… I don’t say that lightly, I MEAN IT!

If an argument on the fundamentals of the Catholic Faith would cause someone to turn their back on the Faith… There is a much bigger problem then anyone here can resolve!

I’m sorry, and sad that there are good Catholics out there, such as yourself, who would seemingly, not defend the Catholic Faith on ANY occasion of false statements and accusations… That is our duty as Catholics!

On this I will have to disagree with anyone who does not see defending the Catholic Faith as a kind, compassionate, loving… and Catholic thing to do!

With respect… Humility, but totally lacking in patients,
Chez
P.S.- God Bless You and your kind nature.
 
I am unsure of what is taking place but I personally experienced a false but very real manifestation in a Pentecostal church one night- the phenomena commonly known as “slain in the spirit.” I remember this evangelist touching my forehead and descending into smoky blackness.

You were right in that what you were experiencing was from Satan. Remember, he can counterfeit most, if not all, works of the Holy Spirit, though things like creation are beyond his ability.

In the Catholic Church, the Holy Spirit works much differently than in even good Protestant ones. He is much quieter and gentler. In the Catholic Church, even at Charismatic prayer services, there is no shouting or dancing in the aisles. Having been to a Charismatic prayer service, let me explain to you what happened at the one I went to. The service began with music, then there is some instruction about what those who are unfamiliar with Charismatic services might expect to see or experience. There was a time of adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.

Since you are not Catholic, adoration is a time when the consecrated Host is set in a monstrance and everyone prayerfully kneels before it in reverent silence. This might sound odd to you, but to a Catholic, the consecrated Host has been transformed from mere flour and water into the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ by the power of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, we are not reverently kneeling in front of bread. We are reverently kneeling before Jesus Christ himself.

After adoration, people were able to go forward for a time of prayer, if they so desired. Some did experience what is known as “Resting in the Lord”. It is kind of similar to being “Slain in the Spirit”, but not exactly. (I am a former Pentecostal Protestant, so I have experienced both.) When I was “Slain in the Spirit” I remember becoming very stiff and falling. Then…nothing, darkness, like when your eyes are closed, but nothing else.

“Resting in the Lord” is very different. Very, very different. It’s like total relaxation. You don’t stand up, not because you can’t, but because you don’t want to. You are (at least I was) totally aware of what was going on around me, but it didn’t matter. I could get up any time I wanted, I knew that, but I didn’t want to. It was like being bathed in warmth and light and total peace. That’s the way the Holy Spirit works in the Catholic Church. He never pushes, never forces, you retain your free will. In short, it’s 180 degrees different from what you experienced.

Please don’t let what you experienced scare you away from the Holy Spirit. He is kindness, gentleness, light and peace personified.

Kris
 
This is from my memory, per Dave Currie’s Born Fundamentalist, Born Again Catholic “Five D’s”:
  1. Deposit of Faith: All of Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Infallible. Cannot be added to or subtracted from.
  2. Dogma: Definetly proclaimed and defined teachings of faith and morals, binding on all believers. Infallible. Cannot contradict Deposit of Faith or previous proclaimed Dogmatic teaching. Proclaimed by ex cathedra Papal pronouncement or by Ecumenical Council ratified by reigning Pontiff.
  3. Doctrine: Proclaimed teachings of faith and morals that while NOT infallible are to be held by all believers while promoted. Doctrines can be altered, modified, even abandoned. Doctrines rarely become Dogma.
  4. Discipline: Ordinances of behavior that are obligatory depending on the specific audience: Includes obligatory fasts, abstensions (“no eating meat on Friday”), priestly celibacy. Particulars of Disciplines can be promoted, altered, relaxed, or abandoned as the Magesterium determines as best suting the needs of believers. NOT infallible though deliberate disobedience to a currently promoted disclipline may be a mortal sin.
  5. Devotions: Optional prayers, practices, and disciplines that are strictly volontary; e.g., most Marian devotions, First Saturdays, Novenas, etc…
 
Thank you to those who said they were praying for me. I’ve been reading each post but I had nothing to add with all the off topic stuff. So where does one go from here when I know I love God and I want to follow Him yet my instinct plus logic tells me that some of the Catholic Church’s disciplines are extra to what is required for my salvation. If disciplines can change (ie. fasting rules as just one example), then I don’t see how any institution can tell someone they are sinning mortally and thus in danger of hell if they don’t follow that discipline When I read the Bible, the Gospel message seems so simple. You shouldn’t need a canon lawyer to ensure your salvation.

I don’t know. I really don’t fit in because I am not a liberal Catholic (meaning I don’t support gay marriage and I don’t think other religions equally lead to Heaven, etc). At the same time, I don’t wear a mantilla or prefer Latin Masses. And I can’t go back to the Evangelicals where there’s so much chaos and no Eucharist. I feel more like a conservative Anglican these days.
 

God the Son became Man to reconcile us with God, to teach and show us how to live lives which are pleasing to Him. OUR conciences must be attuned to God our Creator, for noone defiled (by sin) can abide in His Presence for the eternity which is ahead of us all.
6. If this is not so, the Saviour would not have been sent to redeem us from our sinful state, by His suffering and death on the Cross.
****Nor did our Saviour Jesus spend His life in servitude to the Father and teaching the Way to God during His public life. *****PLEASE READ AMENDMENT BELOW.
7. It is well to remember that Christ, when asked by the rich young man how he coulld obtain heaven (eternal life) Our Lord answered “Keep the Commandments” and when later challenged to define the greatest commandment, Christ did not say forget the Commandments. OR do not bother Me with silly questions or do what you please since your concience is infallible! !!!
What Jesus who is the Son of God did reply was:
The greatest Commandment is
“Love the Lord thy God with thy whole heart, mind and soul”
and the second is like this
" and Love thy neighbour as thyself" #93​

DEAR ALL,

Many apologies to those who read my earlier post:
I inadvertently sent it before checking it for spelling and errors. While I have left the spelling as is. The following sentence was incomplete, which gave a meaning not intended.
It reads as follows: ****Nor did our Saviour Jesus spend His life in servitude to the Father and teaching the Way to God during His public life.
******IT SHOULD HAVE READ::Nor did our Saviour Jesus spend His life in obedience and servitude to the Father as a whim, but to show us by His example and His authoritive teaching during His public life, the WAY to God.

Catholic Convert doubting…I will keep you in my prayers…JJM
 
Particular disciplines are meant to keep the individual on the “strait and narrow”–the particulars can change due to time, culture and circumstance–much as the particular circumstances might change between a minor child and a parent–however the obligation for obedience (as long as the child is a dependent minor) remains constant.

I hope that helps :rolleyes:
 
Hi SetonGirl,

Candidly, I am not sure just what it is you hope to find. You have set your own parameters and have decided in advance on what is important and what isn’t to be bothered with. If I understand you correctly, there really is some confusion on what is the real Cathoic Church teaching - for example - the Church specifically condemns all sexual activity outside of marriage - and homosexual activity is ‘inherently disordered’. So, do not think that some ‘branch’ of the Catholic Church approves of homosexual behavior, or aborton or contraception, or embryonic research or euthanasia or in vitro fertilization or serogate mothers or any of the many other items that our technology has pressented and our moral will flounders unable to determine right from wrong - and just builds up speed as it slides down that slippery slope.

So, rather then remain as lost as you sound, my I suggest that you actually conduct a systematic search of the various religions to determine which is the True Church. You set up your own criteria for what is True - I really do not think anyone will argue with you on that. Now, when it comes to Protestantism, there are about 30,000+ varieties - so you may want to find a want to arrange groups so as facilitate an investigation. Other-wise, no matter how old you are, you will not live long enough to evaluate them all.

When it comes to the non-Christian religions there are quite a few - so establishing some kind of order so as not to confuse the issue would probably be important. Then there are the atheists and wicams and probably some others I do not know about. Really. And, as far as I am able to determine - all of these Christian/non-Christian/non-God groups were founded by men. So many choices and only one immortal soul.

But, before you launch out on your quest, may I also suggest that you know exactly what the Catholic Church teaches - rather then what you may hear others say. Here is a link and it will probably throw some light on areas that you were not sure of: scborromeo.org/ The Cathechism of the Catholic Church explains a lot of what the Church believes. If you have any questions, I am confident that there are people on this thread that can at least point you in the right direction.

I honestly hope that you find what you are look for.

God bless
Thank you to those who said they were praying for me. I’ve been reading each post but I had nothing to add with all the off topic stuff. So where does one go from here when I know I love God and I want to follow Him yet my instinct plus logic tells me that some of the Catholic Church’s disciplines are extra to what is required for my salvation. If disciplines can change (ie. fasting rules as just one example), then I don’t see how any institution can tell someone they are sinning mortally and thus in danger of hell if they don’t follow that discipline When I read the Bible, the Gospel message seems so simple. You shouldn’t need a canon lawyer to ensure your salvation.

I don’t know. I really don’t fit in because I am not a liberal Catholic (meaning I don’t support gay marriage and I don’t think other religions equally lead to Heaven, etc). At the same time, I don’t wear a mantilla or prefer Latin Masses. And I can’t go back to the Evangelicals where there’s so much chaos and no Eucharist. I feel more like a conservative Anglican these days.
 
It is unfair to say that Protestantism is split up into 33,000 different splintered groups to then suggest that roman Catholicism is one and unified over the world since the beginning.

The Catholic Church has changed over the course of history on very important issues. Some of these fringe protestant groups have been created out of reading the conditions and beliefs of the early Christian believers. Compare the disciplinary doctrines of the catholic church through out the early church fathers up until the 10th century (about) . If someone committed adultery, they were immediately excommunicated by the bishop and began a long process of restoration to a holy life in christ. There was a huge emphasis on the holiness of the church and was not content with just allowing anyone professing inside church. Nowadays, you can be whatever you want during the week, as long as you ‘‘repent’’ before communion. I grew up catholic and everyone I knew was like that (not saying that’s everyone). You have two different atmospheres today than you did then. There was close inspection of catechumens and the way they lived their lives before they were received into the church. If you were a visitor you needed letters of recommendation prior to receiving communion. If you had no letters, the laity and the clergy were to examine your fruits and lifestyle for 3 years before you received communion. If this was practiced today, 75% of catholic laity would be trying to sue the church and would be crying ‘‘scandalous judementalism!!!’’.

The protestant church of conservative Anglicanism resembles almost the same doctrine, it recognizes the authority of tradition., but does not contradict Scripture at any cost. To say the Anglican church is simply another blend of the 33,000 mix is just very deceptive and unfair.

What do you do when you are a catholic member and you see nothing but ungodliness and worldliness in every catholic church you attend, is Jesus with them into the end of the age, and at the same time he is not with helpless protestant believers around the world who are huddled together in love praying for one another, meeting each others needs, performing love feasts for the whole church, taking care of the sick and hungry???

Jesus is with those who practice righteousness. The kingdom is given to those who bear its fruits. I’m afraid Seton girl is going through what some of the reformers saw in the catholic church, a lot of high claims to authority and very little visible heart holiness and purity of life and righteous discipline of its members.

The catholic church h claims to be the only apostolic church (lets give it that they are one and so is orthodox) and yet the emphases on Christian doctrine are radically different now than they were in the 4 5 6 centuries. Now you read more and more about Mary, making infallible things which the apostles would have had no clue about. If Paul was here on earth now, he would be stracthing his head wondering where this ‘‘development’’ came from. You can only get orange juice from an orange. The product has to match the source of origin. Why do we not read anything about the virgin Mary’s prominent place in the present phase of redemptive history?

Catholics are very careful to provide a living voice which is contemporary that has tracings to history. And we love this, yes… but look at the incongruity of the early church to the roman catholic church . There was already a split from of the orthodox from the catholics because of the newness of the popes claim to authority. This was genuinely a new thing. It was not in the lectures to the catechumens of the 1 and 2nd centuries that christ established a supreme perpetual chair of authority in a successive line of petrine bishops. Otherwise the split would have had no justification in 1054 since it would have been common knowledge. If the apostles did not know it, it is post apostolic teaching.
 
Thank you to those who said they were praying for me… So where does one go from here when I know I love God and I want to follow Him yet my instinct plus logic tells me that some of the Catholic Church’s disciplines are extra to what is required for my salvation. When I read the Bible, the Gospel message seems so simple. You shouldn’t need a canon lawyer to ensure your salvation.
It might be that you have the gift of “faith” given to you from God. The explanation could be as simple as that. Of course I do not know, but I take your words at face value.

Again, it is simple, but with so many people, well the name Thomas comes to mind. A lot of people need some structure which they can touch. In your case your faith might be the inspiration for others. Who knows?
I don’t know. I really don’t fit in because I am not a liberal Catholic (meaning I don’t support gay marriage and I don’t think other religions equally lead to Heaven, etc).
Well, I think it is safe to offer an :amen: to that.
At the same time, I don’t wear a mantilla or prefer Latin Masses.
Neither do I 🤷
And I can’t go back to the Evangelicals where there’s so much chaos and no Eucharist.
Exactly :highprayer:
I feel more like a conservative Anglican these days.
Perhaps, but trust me Catholics have better snacks after mass.

I hope these thoughts help.

God bless
 
Hi, Erick_Ybarra,

Ah, just where to begin… maybe one place is to request that when you make a lot of statements - please provide some reference to back up your statements… 😃

According to this article there are even more then the 33,000 denominations - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_denominations There are several different rites but all look to the Pope for leadership. Then there are those that split from the Great Schism (newadvent.org/cathen/13535a.htm )

Now, when it comes to unified doctrine - let me cut to the chase and dismiss the smoke you have provided. Just look around and consider this: less then 100 years years ago virtually every Protestant group condemned contraception and homosexual behavior. Beginning about 1930 the Anglican Lambeth Conference made the choice to begin the sexual revolution with a set of very small steps. Today, we find multiple Protestant groups approving of abortion, contractption,euthansia, invitro fertilization, surogate motherhood, and all the other technological changes that have caused us to speed down the slippery slope.

Now, take a look at the position of the Catholic Church - and you can take this back to 33AD when Christ founded His Church on Peter. There really is a consistent approach to moral doctrine. Admittedly all of these new and improved technological enhancements to moral degeneration were not around until a few years ago - but, the principles of virtuous moral behavior were laid down 2,000 years ago. The position of the Catholic Church on these issues is highly contrasted with the numerous Protestant groups who have splintered over many of these moral issues.

Let me stop here so that I can reflect on the rest of your post. I think I can respond a little later - but, now I am off to bed. 😃

God bless
It is unfair to say that Protestantism is split up into 33,000 different splintered groups to then suggest that roman Catholicism is one and unified over the world since the beginning.

The Catholic Church has changed over the course of history on very important issues. Some of these fringe protestant groups have been created out of reading the conditions and beliefs of the early Christian believers. Compare the disciplinary doctrines of the catholic church through out the early church fathers up until the 10th century (about) . If someone committed adultery, they were immediately excommunicated by the bishop and began a long process of restoration to a holy life in christ. There was a huge emphasis on the holiness of the church and was not content with just allowing anyone professing inside church. Nowadays, you can be whatever you want during the week, as long as you ‘‘repent’’ before communion. I grew up catholic and everyone I knew was like that (not saying that’s everyone). You have two different atmospheres today than you did then. There was close inspection of catechumens and the way they lived their lives before they were received into the church. If you were a visitor you needed letters of recommendation prior to receiving communion. If you had no letters, the laity and the clergy were to examine your fruits and lifestyle for 3 years before you received communion. If this was practiced today, 75% of catholic laity would be trying to sue the church and would be crying ‘‘scandalous judementalism!!!’’.

The protestant church of conservative Anglicanism resembles almost the same doctrine, it recognizes the authority of tradition., but does not contradict Scripture at any cost. To say the Anglican church is simply another blend of the 33,000 mix is just very deceptive and unfair.

What do you do when you are a catholic member and you see nothing but ungodliness and worldliness in every catholic church you attend, is Jesus with them into the end of the age, and at the same time he is not with helpless protestant believers around the world who are huddled together in love praying for one another, meeting each others needs, performing love feasts for the whole church, taking care of the sick and hungry???

Jesus is with those who practice righteousness. The kingdom is given to those who bear its fruits. I’m afraid Seton girl is going through what some of the reformers saw in the catholic church, a lot of high claims to authority and very little visible heart holiness and purity of life and righteous discipline of its members.

The catholic church h claims to be the only apostolic church (lets give it that they are one and so is orthodox) and yet the emphases on Christian doctrine are radically different now than they were in the 4 5 6 centuries. Now you read more and more about Mary, making infallible things which the apostles would have had no clue about. If Paul was here on earth now, he would be stracthing his head wondering where this ‘‘development’’ came from. You can only get orange juice from an orange. The product has to match the source of origin. Why do we not read anything about the virgin Mary’s prominent place in the present phase of redemptive history?

Catholics are very careful to provide a living voice which is contemporary that has tracings to history. And we love this, yes… but look at the incongruity of the early church to the roman catholic church . There was already a split from of the orthodox from the catholics because of the newness of the popes claim to authority. This was genuinely a new thing. It was not in the lectures to the catechumens of the 1 and 2nd centuries that christ established a supreme perpetual chair of authority in a successive line of petrine bishops. Otherwise the split would have had no justification in 1054 since it would have been common knowledge. If the apostles did not know it, it is post apostolic teaching.
 
Concerning the issue of contraception and the moral doctrines surrounding life and creation, I think are right on point, and I would say that the Catholic Church has been faithful in maintaining this principle. However, you do realize that there are many protestant churches who believes the same things (in the leadership level) and that there are many protestants who practice this in their lives (I am one of them). While at the same time, the majority of Catholics are liberal and voted for Obama and his administration. Something that we need to understand here is that you cannot just have sound doctrine, and you cannot just have holy leadership, you must also have a method of discipline in the church, and as far as I can see, the modern Roman Catholic Church is an open door facility with the attitude of “love” and “acceptance” to all people’s no matter what, and I see a refusal to discipline morally the members and laity.

Paul gave a number of instructions to Timothy in his conduction of being a Bishop and evangelist and how the Church of God is to be run. Amazingly, many Catholics have been quick to point out that in the pastoral epistles, Paul has identified the “church” as the pillar and ground of the truth, which they have correctly done so, and at the same time ignore everything else Paul said about the Church in these epistles. Interestingly enough, Paul saw his apostolic authority as grounding the instructions which he gave timothy and one of the things he says concerning bishops is that they can be married and that to forbid marriage is a doctrine of demons (1 Timothy 4:1-4). We must remember also that Paul said *“Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons, through the insincerity of liars whose consciences are seared, who forbid marriage and require abstinence from goods that God created to be received with thanksgiving by those who believe and know the truth. For everything created by God is good, and nothing is to be rejected if it is received with thanksgiving, for it is made holy by the world of God and prayer”. * Is it possible for the “Church” to be the pillar and ground of truth and at the same time go directly against apostolic authority in it’s very origins (St. Paul the apostle!?)

Both the issue of forbidding marriage (and I understand this is only for voluntary priests, and that many have married before) and also the forbidding of certain foods (which the Catholic church does) are both stemming from this “departing from the truth”. It sounds like Paul knew very well that heresy and false teaching were going to arise in the time following his departure and if Paul knew that there was a college of bishops, Peter being the head of them, that would be a perpetual and visible ground of the authority over the universal church to shepherd and guide, why would Paul omit this from Timothy in whose concern Paul is pouring out his desire for him to not stray from the truth???

It would not have even been practical for Timothy to rely on the Roman Church, who at the time neither held a doctrine like the modern papacy. For Paul, timothy was to “entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also” (2 Timothy 2:2) the gospel of God. In the Roman Catholic Church, there is an “office of bishop” that exists independent of the human being and whether the person filling it is good or bad, which is a perpetual and visible head of the world-wide church and that when it is filled, God secures that person as “infallible” in the declaration of doctrine and morals (ex cathedra). Whatever else is true, Paul was completely unaware of it, for any historian must scratch his head as to why Paul would not mention this to Timothy in all his admonitions to keep the truth and to not stray from teaching what he had learned. Something so high and foundational as the Papacy would have to have a solid embarking from the very start and a public and clear proposal to all the saints and faithful. To claim a Petrine successive dynastic structure in an unbroken line to be the visible “office” in which contains God’s perpetual and indestructible Shepherd of the universal Church, despite the human person who fills the office, and that will continue to fulfill God’s plan in overseeing the Church is something that would have had to be installed very clearly from the beginning. However, what we find is that neither any of the apostles nor Paul knew of such a thing. They really did not. And Paul’s pastoral letters to Timothy are a witness.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top