Catholic dating- Dating more than one person at the same time

[Tradycja]

Well, so, after the end of a 7 month relationship I am back on Catholic Match.

One thing that I would like to change during this time around, is not going exclusive with someone so fast, but rather to get to know many Catholic women. I feel like the last time around (went exclusive after 2 months of knowing her) I kind of limited myself. Ultimately, we were incompatible due to our views on money and an objective large amount of student loan and credit card debt she had (60k).

Anyway, I feel like I would have found out that we were incompatible after knowing her awhile ANYWAY, but I could have been getting to know other women during that time period.

I am traditional Catholic and I basically reject the idea of “soulmate” and “the one”. I think you basically need to find someone who is compatible in regards to Religion (Catholic/Traditional), Psychology (are we compatible personality-wise), and Worldview (politics, views on raising children, financial compatibility). It’s my belief that if you find someone that matches you in this criteria, it’s impossible NOT to fall in love with them. I fundamentally believe that reason should lead and THEN the heart and not vice-versa. Actually, I read something that statistically arranged marriages (still practiced in various parts of the world) are stronger marriages, because the parents of the bride and groom take into account factors that may be overlooked by two young people intoxicated by romantic love.

That being said, how does one approach this issue (of not wanting to go exclusive that soon) when it seems like the expectation, even in Catholic circles, is that the goal is to be “In a relationship”? My goal is not to be “In a relationship” but to discern a good spouse. I’m financially and psychology ready to get married. In a sense, it really is kind of like a job interview, when you think of it…but you’re interviewing for something more important than a job- a life-long covenant. Just as I wouldn’t choose where I worked simply on my emotions towards the place, why would I base a life-long covenant and sacrament on just randomly “falling in love”?

Please advise. How does one date more than one girl at the same time without seeming like a “player”. (It goes without saying that I don’t believe in premarital sex or kissing before marriage).

 

[agapewolf]

I don’t think it “goes without saying” to your last point. Nothing sinful about a kiss before marriage.

Anyway, I appreciate your approach. I don’t necessarily think you have to hold off on going exclusive, just talk about the important red flags first. If both of you are approaching it this way, you can cover all the red flags in the first couple weeks. Then you continue to get to know each other, build trust and chemistry. You can figure it out within a few months.

 

[Tradycja]

I don’t want this to turn into a kissing vs. no kissing thread but this is what I base my “no kissing” policy on:

Pope Alexander VII, Various Errors on Moral Matters, Sept. 24, 1665 & March 18,1666:
“It is a probable opinion which states that a kiss is only venial when performed for the sake of the carnal and sensible delight which arises from the kiss, if danger of further consent and pollution is excluded.”–CONDEMNED (Denzinger 1140)

Pope Clement V , Council of Vienne, “The Errors of the Beghards and the Beguines”: 1311-1312:
“That a woman’s kiss, since nature does not incline to this, is a mortal sin; but the carnal act, since nature inclines to this, is not a sin, especially when the one exercising it is tempted.”–CONDEMNED (Denzinger 477)

 

[chevalier]

You will not find anything in official sources in direct support of my words here but I believe that non-exclusive romantic relationships, the kind that are basically tantamount to having several girlfriends or boyfriends at the same time, and romantic kissing (more “advanced” kissing than with relatives or friends, e.g. kissing your date where you wouldn’t want to kiss your sister or a male person), are unnatural, and a creepy polyamorous thing.

On the other hand, I recall a cardinal (leading the dicastery responsible for Catholic upbringing) saying something about the limiting nature of young people’s acting as if they were engaged instead of getting to know more people. At the time I read him, I got shivers, but later I agreed there was wisdom in that. But I still hold fast to the position that having several boyfriends or girlfriends, or any form of polyamory, or multikissing, is wrong (and shameful and embarrassing).

…While I do firmy believe that it’s nobody’s business who I have a coffee with or spend a Saturday evening with, as long as it’s conversation, some cultural activity, sharing a meal or drink, maybe even some dancing. If I were married or engaged or even in a formal relationship, that’d be different. (Still, in my culture you don’t fuss about your spouse seeing his or her friends 1 on 1. It’s more of a matter of priorities and propriety.)

Also, I generally don’t like the notion of dating. When I ask for a lady’s company or offer my own, it will range from something as specific as a particular film to more vague spending time together, but something that has the connotation of obligatory kissing in the moonlight if things don’t go particularly bad is an offensive notion to me. Way too irreverent. It wouldn’t only offend the lady asked, it would offend me for saying it, unless perhaps there were a specific circumstance to justify it. I have no qualms letting it on that I’m impressed or interested or attached, but “date” is a cultural anchor, a meme, that involves things that just should not be mentioned by a man to a woman to whom he is a stranger.

 

[chevalier]

Pope Alexander VII, Various Errors on Moral Matters, Sept. 24, 1665 & March 18,1666:
“It is a probable opinion which states that a kiss is only venial when performed for the sake of the carnal and sensible delight which arises from the kiss, if danger of further consent and pollution is excluded.”–CONDEMNED (Denzinger 1140)

Clearly harmed in clarity by translation into English. Dig up the Latin and we can work on it.

Pope Clement V , Council of Vienne, “The Errors of the Beghards and the Beguines”: 1311-1312:
“That a woman’s kiss, since nature does not incline to this, is a mortal sin; but the carnal act, since nature inclines to this, is not a sin, especially when the one exercising it is tempted.”–CONDEMNED (Denzinger 477)

Actually, that one has nothing to do with kissing. It first of all condemns the notion that “simple fornication” is venial. Secondly it may or may not be condemning the notion that “a woman’s kissing” is mortal. At any rate, it doesn’t have a logical link with your position.

 

[Tradycja]

I’m talking about getting to know a lot of women ***with no kissing involved. *** (Read above please!)

Basically you are conducting “job interviews” to see who has the best qualities to be a wife and mother. On the other side the woman should be getting to know if you have what it takes to be a good father as well.

 

[chevalier]

I’m talking about getting to know a lot of women ***with no kissing involved. *** (Read above please!)

I provided a broader context. Don’t presume I didn’t read what you write just because I didn’t provide an ample disclaimer. As lacking in clarity as I may’ve made it.

Basically you are conducting “job interviews” to see who has the best qualities to be a wife and mother. On the other side the woman should be getting to know if you have what it takes to be a good father as well.

I know how stuff works with dating portals and such. Yes, it does have some things in common with job interviews but watch it lest it take a materialistic turn. Once upon a time I saw the profile of a girl who used the word “assets”. As beautiful as she was, I didn’t write. Guess why.

In business terms, you’re up for a general partnership, acting like a recruiter would be a tad presumptuous. Likewise for the woman. You need to vet her as a potential partner in your little joint venture, not in terms of value added to your company by hiring her as an employee.

 

[AnastasiaRomano]

I don’t necessarily see any harm in getting to know multiple women – from what you’re talking about, it sounds more like friendship rather than the “dating” in secular sense.

But you know, any courtship process does need to become exclusive prior to engagement. For example, a young lady isn’t likely to feel that you’re serious about a vocation to marriage with her if you’ve been courting other young ladies up until 2 weeks before you propose!

 

[mark_a]

Well, so, after the end of a 7 month relationship I am back on Catholic Match.

One thing that I would like to change during this time around, is not going exclusive with someone so fast, but rather to get to know many Catholic women. I feel like the last time around (went exclusive after 2 months of knowing her) I kind of limited myself. Ultimately, we were incompatible due to our views on money and an objective large amount of student loan and credit card debt she had (60k).

Anyway, I feel like I would have found out that we were incompatible after knowing her awhile ANYWAY, but I could have been getting to know other women during that time period.

I am traditional Catholic and I basically reject the idea of “soulmate” and “the one”. I think you basically need to find someone who is compatible in regards to Religion (Catholic/Traditional), Psychology (are we compatible personality-wise), and Worldview (politics, views on raising children, financial compatibility). It’s my belief that if you find someone that matches you in this criteria, it’s impossible NOT to fall in love with them. I fundamentally believe that reason should lead and THEN the heart and not vice-versa. Actually, I read something that statistically arranged marriages (still practiced in various parts of the world) are stronger marriages, because the parents of the bride and groom take into account factors that may be overlooked by two young people intoxicated by romantic love.

That being said, how does one approach this issue (of not wanting to go exclusive that soon) when it seems like the expectation, even in Catholic circles, is that the goal is to be “In a relationship”? My goal is not to be “In a relationship” but to discern a good spouse. I’m financially and psychology ready to get married. In a sense, it really is kind of like a job interview, when you think of it…but you’re interviewing for something more important than a job- a life-long covenant. Just as I wouldn’t choose where I worked simply on my emotions towards the place, why would I base a life-long covenant and sacrament on just randomly “falling in love”?

Please advise. How does one date more than one girl at the same time without seeming like a “player”. (It goes without saying that I don’t believe in premarital sex or kissing before marriage).

It sounds to me like you have a good head on your shoulders. When you get this problem solved, please let the rest of the world know how you did it because there are 7 billion men and women who want to know the answer.

 

[lonelypetunia]

It sounds to me like you have a good head on your shoulders. When you get this problem solved, please let the rest of the world know how you did it because there are 7 billion men and women who want to know the answer.

Agreed. Please put me on the email list once the answer is found…

 

[llenadegracia]

I do not think there’s anything wrong with your approach. In fact, I think it is very wise and something all young Catholics (and everyone) should do. I really don’t think you’d seem like a “player”.

Really, I don’t think it’s too big of a deal. I encourage you to make a list of non negotiables. Sit down for coffee with many Catholic women and work those non negotiables into the coversation. She believes in pre-marital relations? Hmm…probably time to move on. Obviously, don’t be so strict about your non negotiables that you end up missing out on some great young women…but know what you’re looking for.

Some personal experience with this issue…I finally sat down a few months ago and made a list of non negotiables. When I sit down for coffee (or dinner or whatever) with a young gentleman, there’s a few topics I try to get his stance on during that time. For example, he needs to be financially stable/financially sound. Considering I’m in college as are these gentlemen, that can be a little tough so I’m not expecting much…just the assurance that they are being financially responsible in their life and not taking out thousands upon thousands of loans and not being responsible about it…

My best male friend asked me, “Well…don’t you believe in dating for fun?” I told him something like…well sure, I believe in dating for fun…as in going on a date or two to get to know someone…I’m not going to be in a committed relationship with someone “for fun”. If a respectful young man asked me to coffee, I would likely surely go unless there was some heavy reason why I just felt like it just wouldn’t work out (for example…I once had a man just released from a psych ward ask me on a date…yeah…I passed on that one). But generally nice young men with good habits and a good focus in life? Sure, I’ll go to coffee with them at least once. But if they fail my non negotiable test…no second coffee…so I totally understand what you’re saying about how a date is sort of like a job interview.

I’ve gone on coffee dates with multiple young men all in the same week… No biggie. I’m a friendly person, so it is a pretty casual thing. I assure it’s not that big of a deal and a lot of people probably have the same approach as you described, including myself.

 

[Oh_Charlotte]

First, God bless you! Your story is indeed refreshing and encouraging! In this sad world of hook-ups, free sex and friends with benefits it is music to the soul to read about single people trying to remain chaste and live a Holy life, thank you and I will be praying for your journey and discernment.

You are not a “player” and should not worry at all about that label. Your relationships with multiple ladies more closely resemble friendships, especially at the beginning. I see nothing wrong with multiple friendships. Once things progress romantically with someone special you will hopefully both want to be exclusive!

I second that!

 

[agapewolf]

I don’t want this to turn into a kissing vs. no kissing thread but this is what I base my “no kissing” policy on:

Pope Alexander VII, Various Errors on Moral Matters, Sept. 24, 1665 & March 18,1666:
“It is a probable opinion which states that a kiss is only venial when performed for the sake of the carnal and sensible delight which arises from the kiss, if danger of further consent and pollution is excluded.”–CONDEMNED (Denzinger 1140)

Pope Clement V , Council of Vienne, “The Errors of the Beghards and the Beguines”: 1311-1312:
“That a woman’s kiss, since nature does not incline to this, is a mortal sin; but the carnal act, since nature inclines to this, is not a sin, especially when the one exercising it is tempted.”–CONDEMNED (Denzinger 477)

Neither of these statements back up what you originally said:

that it “Goes without saying”. Because its not a sin. It’s your choice to do that, fine.

And its definitely a good idea in the beginning states of friendship, getting to know someone, especially several people.

 

[Luvz2travel]

Wow this thread is from 2009.

 

[llenadegracia]

Wow this thread is from 2009.

I think it was actually from earlier today. The OP joined CAF in 2009, though.

 

[lifeisbeautiful]

I do not think there’s anything wrong with your approach. In fact, I think it is very wise and something all young Catholics (and everyone) should do. I really don’t think you’d seem like a “player”.

Really, I don’t think it’s too big of a deal. I encourage you to make a list of non negotiables. Sit down for coffee with many Catholic women and work those non negotiables into the coversation. She believes in pre-marital relations? Hmm…probably time to move on. Obviously, don’t be so strict about your non negotiables that you end up missing out on some great young women…but know what you’re looking for.

Some personal experience with this issue…I finally sat down a few months ago and made a list of non negotiables. When I sit down for coffee (or dinner or whatever) with a young gentleman, there’s a few topics I try to get his stance on during that time. For example, he needs to be financially stable/financially sound. Considering I’m in college as are these gentlemen, that can be a little tough so I’m not expecting much…just the assurance that they are being financially responsible in their life and not taking out thousands upon thousands of loans and not being responsible about it…

My best male friend asked me, “Well…don’t you believe in dating for fun?” I told him something like…well sure, I believe in dating for fun…as in going on a date or two to get to know someone…I’m not going to be in a committed relationship with someone “for fun”. If a respectful young man asked me to coffee, I would likely surely go unless there was some heavy reason why I just felt like it just wouldn’t work out (for example…I once had a man just released from a psych ward ask me on a date…yeah…I passed on that one). But generally nice young men with good habits and a good focus in life? Sure, I’ll go to coffee with them at least once. But if they fail my non negotiable test…no second coffee…so I totally understand what you’re saying about how a date is sort of like a job interview.

I’ve gone on coffee dates with multiple young men all in the same week… No biggie. I’m a friendly person, so it is a pretty casual thing. I assure it’s not that big of a deal and a lot of people probably have the same approach as you described, including myself.

I too think it is wise to not become “exclusive” until you feel like you have met someone that might be the one.
Just make sure you are not misleading them into thinking you are exclusive. I used to throw out little comments here and there to make sure they knew.
BTW, growing up I went to confession/spiritual guidance with several very good priests and they all concurred that passionate kissing outside of marriage was wrong… so I didn’t see any problem with your statement.

 

[Tradycja]

No, actually it’s not…look closer…that’s my “join date”

 

[llenadegracia]

I too think it is wise to not become “exclusive” until you feel like you have met someone that might be the one.
Just make sure you are not misleading them into thinking you are exclusive. I used to throw out little comments here and there to make sure they knew.
BTW, growing up I went to confession/spiritual guidance with several very good priests and they all concurred that passionate kissing outside of marriage was wrong… so I didn’t see any problem with your statement.

That is certainly important. Haha, I definitely throw out little comments as well! One coffee date obviously isn’t enough where any logical person would think it was exclusive, maybe on the third or fourth the question of where things are going starts to come up, though. I am certainly blessed though that the young men I have encountered in these variety of situations have all shared similar views on dating and whatnot…they all for the most part understand it is to discern marriage. I’m still young though but am blessed to have primarily encountered so many lovely young gentlemen.

 

[DL82]

Ok, to each his own, but I do wonder whether this approach isn’t a little too cold and emotionless.

If you want to get to know more than one woman at a time, I would suggest getting involved in a mixed group of friends, getting to know women in a group setting, which will include lots of one-to-one interactions, or through a shared interest, hobby, work, volunteering, Church group. That seems solid and healthy.

The idea of having a schedule of dates with a number of women, none of whom you will ever kiss or show any kind of (chaste) physical affection for until you are married (not even engaged, married!) just seems a little strange to me. Maybe this is common in some cultures, but in the UK, and I would imagine, in the USA, it would seem strange to most people.

I married my wife after about a year of exclusive dating, we were engaged for about half of that, and we were long distance for most of the time, so physical affection, chaste hugging and kissing, was an important part of the time we were together. Like you, we don’t believe in ‘soulmates’ or ‘The One’ or any of the other modern romantic myths, but it was still important that we had an emotional connection, and were more than just business partners. When I think of the challenges that marriage brings, you really need those moments of joy, to know that you share those, to keep you together in the hard times. In a business partnership, if you go bankrupt, you can go your separate ways. I would worry about a husband who marries a rationally good mother, and how he would react if she couldn’t have children, or started to suffer from post partum depression, or a woman who marries the man with ‘assets’ and how she would respond if he lost his job and she had to go out and work.

A marriage is about heart speaking to heart, it is a courtship in chaste love, the love that Christ the heavenly Brodegroom has for His Church, the love of the Song of Songs, of the courtship passages of Hosea. It shouldn’t be entered into foolishly or without thinking, but nor, in my opinion, should it be entered into heartlessly, without some affection. That means exploring the exclusive dimension, how would you feel if this woman were the only woman in your life, and the only way to test that is by being exclusive.

 

[chevalier]

I do not think there’s anything wrong with your approach. In fact, I think it is very wise and something all young Catholics (and everyone) should do. I really don’t think you’d seem like a “player”.

Really, I don’t think it’s too big of a deal. (…)

Wait, so it’s a good thing to do or is it a no big deal? A no big deal suggests something which isn’t entirely right but the gravity of its wrongness is not particularly significant. Still at odds with the “should” because you can’t really say everybody should do something which is slightly problematic on the ethical side while being somewhat expedient.

Just a trouble I find with the reasoning. To cast some more light on what goes on my mind: a lot of the pro-non-exclusive dating arguments seem centred on one’s own benefit, while allowing the others’s good to be put in a position subordinate to one’s own good. Save our time, test all of your opportunities, do what’s best for you, look out for no. 1. That’s rather tenuous from the point of view of either more traditional thomistic ethics (do the right thing) or its more modern personalistic iteration (affirm the person in the other).

On the other hand:

Ok, to each his own, but I do wonder whether this approach isn’t a little too cold and emotionless.

If you want to get to know more than one woman at a time, I would suggest getting involved in a mixed group of friends, getting to know women in a group setting, which will include lots of one-to-one interactions, or through a shared interest, hobby, work, volunteering, Church group. That seems solid and healthy.

DL, he’s talking about a Catholic match dot com scenario. You may or may not know what that looks like. One such site where I’m signed up has over three hundred thousand profiles out of some thirty-eight million inhabitants of the geographical area of interest. The numbers are probably higher in anything that involves the US, as your splendid country has 8 times that population number, then add the Old Country at the Thames, former colonies here and there and all the second language speakers. That’s gonna be a lot of profiles in total, even if it’s probably similar on the local level (if you “fish” closer to your surroundings for practical reasons, e.g. air fare).

You can’t fall in love with a profile. I actually recognise faces in thumbnail pictures provided in Random 5 on the starting page out of the what, 170K female profiles on that service I’m using? Few of them do anything to me. Like sure, heck, why not have a coffee. In some cases, I’ll say, ‘heck, what an interesting person,’ I may wish her all the best and be happy that such cool people walk this earth, kinda lifts your faith in humanity. But you can’t anything else than an approximate narrowing down decision based on the data a profile contains, even complete with pictures. You just can’t really pick one person unless you have very narrow and very specific criteria and it simply happens that your target group for that is 1. So you just have to involve some getting-to-know in your process. The OP does say the process involves mostly information-finding, not testing how the other person actually lives out a relationship, complete with kissing, cheap poetry, strollin’ down the lovers’ lane and so on. That’s the reality of match-making agencies, I guess.

My own profile contains a warning that 1) meeting up for a coffee is not a step en route to engagement, 2) I’m not okay with any “no obligations” PDA.