Catholic Dating & Marriage

  • Thread starter Thread starter Syphro
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
S

Syphro

Guest
As a Catholic Teen (20 on Tuesday!), living in an open and sexualised world, I am confused about the Church’s view on all things relationships.

I plan on being chaste purely for commitment reasons. Many of my peers are non-catholic and I will not restrict myself to only catholic partners (It would be a nice bonus!).

When you meet an attractive woman and ask her out, does the church discourage kissing and the such?

Do you tell them that you are looking for marriage before the relationship “begins”?

Does the church discourage co-habiting even if you are not having sex?

How do you know whether you can “live” with your partner before marriage (to reduce the chance of divorce)?
 
Living together does not reduce the chances of divorce…I know many people that have lived together before getting married and got divorced anyway.
 
Congratulations on your choice. It’s a wise one and a good moral one as well.

Believe it or not, most couples that live together before marriage have a greater chance of breaking up and getting divorced. I don’t know why, but I have a few ideas. I mention that only because, (and this IS IMPORTANT) many times, in this day and age, women are the ones who are the agressors, pushing you into pre-marital relations, moving in together, and such.

Having said that, and as bizzare as it sounds, you will know when you are able to live with someone. It’s something that just, well, fits. It’s an a priori thing.

On the kissing thing, some websites belive that you shouldn’t kiss until your married. That’s insane and delusional. So much of being in love is physical, (without the intercourse) kissing someone and not feeling a spark is a horrid sign.

And one that you might want to find out before your wedding day.
 
As a Catholic Teen (20 on Tuesday!), living in an open and sexualised world, I am confused about the Church’s view on all things relationships.

I plan on being chaste purely for commitment reasons. Many of my peers are non-catholic and I will not restrict myself to only catholic partners (It would be a nice bonus!).

When you meet an attractive woman and ask her out, does the church discourage kissing and the such?

Do you tell them that you are looking for marriage before the relationship “begins”?

Does the church discourage co-habiting even if you are not having sex?

How do you know whether you can “live” with your partner before marriage (to reduce the chance of divorce)?
Kissing is forbidden because it is either passionate, or a near occasion of sin. If it is the former, it is a mortal sin when done unmarried. You cannot kiss anyone you’re not married to in anyway different than you can kiss your grandmother, that is a peck on the cheek.

You’re not allowed to co-habit, it is a near occasion of sin and a scandal, that means you lead others into mortal sin by doing it, and so it is itself a mortal sin.

The way you know if you can live with the partner is to know whether that partner is a faithful Catholic who loves God sufficiently to be a good spouse to you no matter what happens through thick and thin. If the person really is that grounded in the faith, you’ll be fine, because their holiness will transcend transitory emotions and keep the marriage forever sacred.

True fidelity and faithfulness to your spouse is not even engaging in anything passionate -with- your ‘potential’ future spouse before you marry. Because that potential is just that – potential, it’s still a sin, and a sign of lack of the fidelity and control worthy of marriage and necessary in marriage. Whoever it is if that person can’t be faithful before marriage, why would that person be faithful after?

Try some of the audio sermons in the links below related to men, women, and marriage. There’s a lot of good preparatory material that teaches you what marriage -really- is, and so forth. 🙂 So the marriage can lead both partners to God, rather than being an impediment and just an occasion of indulgence that will fall apart later.
 
Shin-What you said was repulsive and disgusting. So much so that it hardly merits a response, but what the heck.

They’re many people who ::gasp:: kissed before marriage and stayed faithful throughout the marriage.

I know of many people-good and decent Catholics-who have ::gasp again:: kissed intensly and romantically without the bonds of marriage, and are still in good standing.

What you said is sick.
 
Shin did not say anything repulsive or disgusting. It’s so wrong to be chaste before marriage? I don’t think so. I agree with Shin.
 
Kissing is forbidden because it is either passionate, or a near occasion of sin. If it is the former, it is a mortal sin when done unmarried. You cannot kiss anyone you’re not married to in anyway different than you can kiss your grandmother, that is a peck on the cheek.
This seems a bit extreme. Affection isn’t reserved for family, some cultures actively kiss on the mouth (incl. male to male greeting)
The way you know if you can live with the partner is to know whether that partner is a faithful Catholic who loves God sufficiently to be a good spouse to you no matter what happens through thick and thin. If the person really is that grounded in the faith, you’ll be fine, because their holiness will transcend transitory emotions and keep the marriage forever sacred.
Incompatibility cannot be overcome by faith. My father converted to catholicism to marry my mother (see below).
True fidelity and faithfulness to your spouse is not even engaging in anything passionate -with- your ‘potential’ future spouse before you marry. Because that potential is just that – potential, it’s still a sin, and a sign of lack of the fidelity and control worthy of marriage and necessary in marriage. Whoever it is if that person can’t be faithful before marriage, why would that person be faithful after?
My father is my greatest role model. He is a wonderful father and husband. He wasn’t even chaste while my mother was. Yet there is an infinite love between them. My father is a good person and has never set a foot wrong.

Surely physical affection strengthens bonds between a courting couple. I have no intentions of embarrassing myself before my family and friends, with my pathetic attempt at a first kiss.

It is innocent, a way of saying “you could be the one for me”. Anyways surely it’s good fun for both parties.
 
This seems a bit extreme. Affection isn’t reserved for family, some cultures actively kiss on the mouth (incl. male to male greeting)

Surely physical affection strengthens bonds between a courting couple. I have no intentions of embarrassing myself before my family and friends, with my pathetic attempt at a first kiss.

It is innocent, a way of saying “you could be the one for me”. Anyways surely it’s good fun for both parties.
Not all cultural ideas are as good as others. The point is the kiss is only to be chaste and not sensual or carnal in the slightest. A peck on the lips is possible but unwise for mixed sex people who could be passionately attracted to each other if they’re going to change it into that. I can easily see it changing from ‘hello’ to ‘hello’ with passion and teasing sexually, which is a sin.

As for your worries of ‘embaressment’ the Church has a name for this it’s called ‘human respect’ and condemned for being preferred to God.

It is much better for a husband and wife to have their first experiences together, to learn together rather than lose those precious first bonds and experiences to others. It is a sin for this not to be the case for more than one reason.

And as for your statement that Faith can’t overcome all things, if you do not believe that you do not believe in God. 🙂 Faith is the basis for confidence and valuing in any undertaking, and the lack the true source for lack of it.

I am not putting forth my own opinion here or trying to be contrary. 🙂 I would gladly tell couples to kiss or some such thing, if I could. I can’t. They can’t. I’m just telling you what you can do to avoid sin if you truly value purity. If you don’t value purity you’ve already lost it, and you don’t know how badly off you are. Seriously.

Purity is incredibly important. It is the most important thing. Without it you can’t see God.

If you wonder why we read news articles full of constant infidelity and adultery.

Now finally when you say, “it sure is fun” it’s sensual fun and it’s a sin.

And when you say: “He wasn’t even chaste while my mother was. Yet there is an infinite love between them. My father is a good person and has never set a foot wrong.”

This is a contradiction. You love your father and see the good in him, but when he is not chaste he is not being a ‘good person’, and he is not a person who has ‘never set a food wrong’ and if you truly care for your father you would help him rather than ignore the problems and say because he’s dad, ‘everything is good’, loving your father more than you do the Lord who is the true source of every real good in every family.

Infinite love is for God’s sake, not for one’s own sake, and that is a love that sacrifices the sensual pleasure for the sake of God.

Try some of the sermons below on marriage and dating for further info.

Self-love is so subtle a robber that it commits its thefts, even upon God himself, without fear or shame, employing his goods as if they were its own, and assigning as a reason that it cannot live without them. And this robbery is hidden under so many veils of apparent good that it can hardly be detected except by the penetrating light of true love, which always desires to remain uncovered and bare, both in heaven and earth, because it has nothing shameful to conceal.’

St. Catherine of Genoa

‘The Virgin Mother, all pure and all white, will make her servants pure and white.’

‘God knows how useful it is to us to be obliged to pray, in order to keep us humble, and to exercise our confidence; and he therefore permits us to be assaulted by enemies too mighty to be overcome by our own strength, that by prayer we may obtain from his mercy aid to resist them; and it is especially to be remarked that no one can resist the impure temptations of the flesh, without recommending himself to God when he is tempted.’

St. Alphonsus Maria de Liguori

‘Prefer my will to yours, because my Mother, your Lady, from beginning to end, never wanted anything but what I wanted. If you do this, then your heart will be with my heart, and it will be set aflame with my love in the same way as any dry thing is easily set aflame by fire. Your soul will be filled with me and I will be in you, and all temporal things will become bitter to you and all carnal desire like poison. You will rest in my divine arms, where there is no carnal desire, only joy and spiritual delight. There the soul, both inwardly and outwardly delighted, is full of joy, thinking of nothing and desiring nothing but the joy that it possesses. So love me alone, and you will have all the things you wish, and you will have them in abundance.’

The Lord, to St. Bridget of Sweden
 
For further reflection:

‘O Ye virgins, I have but a word to say to you. If you look to married life in this life, guard your first love jealously for your husband. It seems to me a miserable fraud to give a husband a worn-out heart, whose love has been frittered away and despoiled of its first bloom instead of a true, whole-hearted love. But if you are happily called to be the chaste and holy bride of spiritual nuptials, and purpose to live a life of virginity, then in Christ’s Name I bid you keep all your purest, most sensitive love for your Heavenly Bridegroom, Who, being Very Purity Himself, has a special love for purity; Him to Whom the first-fruits of all good things are due, above all those of love.’

If you, husbands, would have your wives faithful, be it yours to set them the example. “How have you the face to exact purity from your wives,” asks St. Gregory Nazianzen, “if you yourself live an impure life? or how can you require that which you do not give in return? If you would have them chaste, let your own conduct to them be chaste. St. Paul bids you possess your vessel in sanctification; but if, on the contrary, you teach them evil, no wonder that they dishonour you. And ye, O women! whose honour is inseparable from modesty and purity, preserve it jealously, and never allow the smallest speck to soil the whiteness of your reputation.” Shrink sensitively from the veriest trifles which can touch it; never permit any gallantries whatsoever. Suspect any who presume to flatter your beauty or grace, for when men praise wares they cannot purchase they are often tempted to steal; and if any one should dare to speak in disparagement of your husband, show that you are irrecoverably offended, for it is plain that he not only seeks your fall, but he counts you as half fallen, since the bargain with the new-comer is half made when one is disgusted with the first merchant. Ladies both in ancient and modern times have worn pearls in their ears, for the sake (so says Pliny) of hearing them tinkle against each other. But remembering how that friend of God, Isaac, sent earrings as first pledges of his love to the chaste Rebecca, I look upon this mystic ornament as signifying that the first claim a husband has over his wife, and one which she ought most faithfully to keep for him, is her ear; so that no evil word or rumour enter therein, and nought be heard save the pleasant sound of true and pure words, which are represented by the choice pearls of the Gospel. Never forget that souls are poisoned through the ear as much as bodies through the mouth.’

‘Human bodies are like glasses, which cannot come into collision without risk of breaking; or to fruits, which, however fresh and ripe, are damaged by pressure. Never permit any one to take any manner of foolish liberty with you, since, although there may be no evil intention, the perfectness of purity is injured thereby. Purity has its source in the heart, but it is in the body that its material results take shape, and therefore it may be forfeited both by the exterior senses and by the thoughts and desires of the heart. All lack of modesty in seeing, hearing, speaking, smelling, or touching, is impurity, especially when the heart takes pleasure therein. St. Paul says without any hesitation that impurity and uncleanness, or foolish and unseemly talking, are not to be “so much as named” among Christians. Remember that there are things which blemish perfect purity, without being in themselves downright acts of impurity. Anything which tends to lessen its intense sensitiveness, or to cast the slightest shadow over it, is of this nature; and all evil thoughts or foolish acts of levity or heedlessness are as steps towards the most direct breaches of the law of chastity. Avoid the society of persons who are wanting in purity, especially if they are bold, as indeed impure people always are.’

St. Francis de Sales

That we may understand how horrible and detestable is this sin, which the demons make us commit, but which they do not commit themselves, we must consider what a Christian is. . . A Christian, created in the image of God, redeemed by the Blood of a God! . . . We are created to reign one day in heaven, and if we have the misfortune to commit this sin, we become the den of the devils. Our Lord said nothing impure should enter into His kingdom. Indeed, how could a soul that has rolled itself in this filth go to appear before so pure and so holy a God? We are all like little mirrors, in which God contemplates Himself. How can you expect that God should recognise His likeness in an impure soul?’

‘As I have often told you, there is nothing so vile as the impure soul. There was once a saint who had asked the good God to show him one; and he saw the poor soul like a dead beast that has been dragged through the streets in the hot sun for a week.’

‘By only looking at a person, we know if he is pure. His eyes have an air of candour and modesty which leads you to the good God. Some people, on the contrary, look quite inflamed with passion. . . Satan places himself in their eyes to make others fall and to lead them to evil.’

‘Take a house that has been for a long time very dirty and neglected – it is in vain to sweep it out, there will always be a nasty smell. It is the same with our soul after confession; it requires tears to purify it. My children, we must ask earnestly for repentance. After confession, we must plant a thorn in our heart, and never lose sight of our sins. We must do as the angel did to St. Francis of Assisi; he fixed in him five darts, which never came out again.’

St. Jean Marie Baptiste Vianney, the Cure of Ars

“Blessed are the pure of heart for they shall see God.” Matthew 5:8
 
Keep in mind, I didn’t say the poster was repulsive. What the poster said was.

I stand by that being “chaste” is a fine thing. All people should shoot for virginity before marriage. However, that does not being absurd.

There is no better way to inject venom into the thoughts of a young person and severly effect their social, personal, sexual, and yes, religious growth then to spread garbage like “No kissing” before marriage.
 
Not all cultural ideas are as good as others.
This quote infuriates me!

Catholics saying this doesn’t surprise me and yet you still act surprised by the fact that there is conflict. By ranking cultural ideas, you are causing more problems than you solve.

Christians turn their noses up at Islam: ‘It doesn’t matter they’re all going to hell anyway.’

Muslims turn up their noses at Christians ‘It doesn’t matter they’re all going to hell anyway.’

We’re so childish and that’s what infuriates me. You compete and all of those who don’t join your cult go to hell.

Anyway back on topic…
The point is the kiss is only to be chaste and not sensual or carnal in the slightest. A peck on the lips is possible but unwise for mixed sex people who could be passionately attracted to each other if they’re going to change it into that. I can easily see it changing from ‘hello’ to ‘hello’ with passion and teasing sexually, which is a sin.
Do the “virgins” in the Vatican want to rob us of the pleasure they voluntarily gave up?
It is much better for a husband and wife to have their first experiences together, to learn together rather than lose those precious first bonds and experiences to others. It is a sin for this not to be the case for more than one reason.
Give me a break! I can see that in an ideal world how well that would work. In the real world romance has lost all respect. You can’t expect an attractive woman to preserve herself for one person.

We’re not living in the 1930’s. Modesty is all well and good but so is liberty.
And as for your statement that Faith can’t overcome all things, if you do not believe that you do not believe in God. 🙂

Purity is incredibly important. It is the most important thing. Without it you can’t see God.
I rather place my faith in how rather than why. Maybe I don’t believe in your God, the God I believe in cannot be described with words written over two thousand years ago or in fact ever.

God doesn’t discriminate. We’re nothing but pathetic little children looking for our mother’s praise.

When I ask from God. I get what I want through myself. Whether God gives me inner strength, I’ll find out when I am released from my body.
And when you say: “He wasn’t even chaste while my mother was. Yet there is an infinite love between them. My father is a good person and has never set a foot wrong.”

This is a contradiction. You love your father and see the good in him, but when he is not chaste he is not being a ‘good person’, and he is not a person who has ‘never set a food wrong’ and if you truly care for your father you would help him rather than ignore the problems and say because he’s dad, ‘everything is good’, loving your father more than you do the Lord who is the true source of every real good in every family.
My father doesn’t need help, what? Being intimate before marriage doesn’t equal a psychological condition or disease. My father dedicated himself to my mother when he married her. I couldn’t of had a better father.

I can’t believe Christian have no faith in humans. We are the source of all good and all evil. Logically, God is just an architect. An architect doesn’t shed a tear when the building he designs topples to the ground. An he certainly doesn’t admire an imperfect building.

Think about it.
 
Keep in mind, I didn’t say the poster was repulsive. What the poster said was.

I stand by that being “chaste” is a fine thing. All people should shoot for virginity before marriage. However, that does not being absurd.

There is no better way to inject venom into the thoughts of a young person and severly effect their social, personal, sexual, and yes, religious growth then to spread garbage like “No kissing” before marriage.
The sensually exciting that arouses people, and that is kissing between a couple before marriage which is either that or a near occasion of sin is forbidden as a teaching of the Catholic Church. That is of God.

Rather than garbage, the garbage is that it is OK, and it belongs in Hell where it comes from.

Do not put your own opinions forth as if they were virtuous when they defy the teachings of Christ, they have no foundation. If you will not believe God, you won’t believe anything but what you want like a hedonist.

You are not permitted to have these pleasures you lust after outside of marriage. Period. You’re not permitted to treat them lightly, nor to use them for pleasure and fun and enjoyment with a person who is not your spouse.

The world teaches a great deal of nonsense about the sexual and many people have some learning and unlearning to do. That is understandable. What is not acceptable is to put forth the teachings of the world as those of the Lord, they are opposed.

RE: You can’t expect an attractive woman to preserve herself for one person.

But I do. Any other such a person is impure and unworthy of marriage, because that person desires and lusts after other people than the spouse in the marriage, and is a slave to the sensuality like an animal.

You don’t like hearing it… Nobody likes hearing bad news. But you should be able to see the good news behind it and the beauty of purity. Only someone deep in denial and the sensual could not.

If you love God, you overcome your sins and listen to Him and obey Him. If you love yourself you do whatever pleases you and do not believe or have Faith. This is a matter for the salvation of your soul. And it should not be a surprise that He has high standards and requirements for you.

And this is not something you can escape it has always been and always will be the Lord’s will. But you want to. I pray you will come home to the beauty of real fidelity and true love. 🙂 It is real. And however much the world denies it, it will always be there for people who want the Lord’s love.

Ave Maria! You have my prayers for your repentance that you will realize the beauty of purity! I do not care for disputing with people I prefer to help people who are looking to learn things from the saints, who are open to these lovely things. So I will not dispute with you for the sake of conflict. If you do not want purity you can go your own way though I pray not. You will discover how horrible that road is eventually…

Those who engage in sexual acts and desires outside of marriage cannot enter Heaven!

For further learning listen to the sermons below on marriage, dating, etc.

Kissing a Vocation Goodbye: 6th and 9th Commandments
Code:
You have heard that it was said, 'You shall not commit adultery.' But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Hell.
Matthew 5:27-30
 
This quote infuriates me! …

Give me a break! I can see that in an ideal world how well that would work. In the real world romance has lost all respect. You can’t expect an attractive woman to preserve herself for one person.

We’re not living in the 1930’s. Modesty is all well and good but so is liberty…

Think about it.
Spoken like a true follower of Christ…
 
Spoken like a true follower of Christ…
Then forgive me! God has already.

I follow the teaching of Jesus of Nazareth. Well, at least the ones that make sense.

Christianity is just another cult of personality blown way out of proportions.
 
Do not put your own opinions forth as if they were virtuous when they defy the teachings of Christ, they have no foundation.
Sorry but you need a wake up call…
The sensually exciting that arouses people, and that is kissing between a couple before marriage which is either that or a near occasion of sin is forbidden as a teaching of the Catholic Church. That is of God.
This is your opinion.
Rather than garbage, the garbage is that it is OK, and it belongs in Hell where it comes from.
Guess what? Opinion.
Do not put your own opinions forth as if they were virtuous when they defy the teachings of Christ, they have no foundation.
Errmm…
You are not permitted to have these pleasures you lust after outside of marriage. Period. You’re not permitted to treat them lightly, nor to use them for pleasure and fun and enjoyment with a person who is not your spouse.
COUGH
But I do. Any other such a person is impure and unworthy of marriage, because that person desires and lusts after other people than the spouse in the marriage, and is a slave to the sensuality like an animal.
And all of this…
You don’t like hearing it… Nobody likes hearing bad news. But you should be able to see the good news behind it and the beauty of purity. Only someone deep in denial and the sensual could not.
I do! My true love may not though.
If you love God, you overcome your sins and listen to Him and obey Him. If you love yourself you do whatever pleases you and do not believe or have Faith. This is a matter for the salvation of your soul. And it should not be a surprise that He has high standards and requirements for you.

Those who engage in sexual acts and desires outside of marriage cannot enter Heaven!
"Matthew:
You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you, everyone who looks at a woman with lust has already committed adultery with her in his heart. If your right eye causes you to sin, tear it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body thrown into Hell. And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one of your members than to have your whole body go into Hell.

Matthew 5:27-30
Matthew’s opinion of the Teachings of Jesus.

So before you condemn someones opinion, look at yourself.

This feels great: ‘Do not complain about the speck in your brother’s eye when you ignore the log in your own.’ - Somewhere in the Bible
Ave Maria! You have my prayers for your repentance that you will realize the beauty of purity! I do not care for disputing with people I prefer to help people who are looking to learn things from the saints, who are open to these lovely things. So I will not dispute with you for the sake of conflict. If you do not want purity you can go your own way though I pray not. You will discover how horrible that road is eventually…
I’m not repenting for sins that don’t exist. I will kiss who I want and reserve what truly matters to me (my virginity). I will be chaste.

As for you “not dispute with you” malarkey. I don’t want to fight either. Don’t think you have moral high ground over me. I want to experience all the cultures of the world before I consider dedicating my children to any religion.
 
Come now, wouldn’t you prefer to fall in love with someone who would love only you, and never feel the slightest sexual attraction for another person besides you? Never had, never will?

Who would experience all the firsts of love with only you?

And that this is the way it is meant to be… for everyone?

And how blind and stupid it is of mankind to let any other belief ruin this beautiful gift of God?

Matthew speaks the Word of God. . . to say Christ and He are opposed…

Is just plain silly. If you approach the truth by this method of your personal preference, you will never find it, but only what you prefer, which is not the truth but only your own desires which shackle you as much as free you.

We approach God to overcome ourselves not indulge ourselves, there’s no happiness in any method but overcoming oneself. 🙂
 
Come now, wouldn’t you prefer to fall in love with someone who would love only you, and never feel the slightest sexual attraction for another person besides you? Never had, never will?

Who would experience all the firsts of love with only you?

And that this is the way it is meant to be… for everyone?

And how blind and stupid it is of mankind to let any other belief ruin this beautiful gift of God?

Matthew speaks the Word of God. . . to say Christ and He are opposed…

Is just plain silly. If you approach the truth by this method of your personal preference, you will never find it, but only what you prefer, which is not the truth but only your own desires which shackle you as much as free you.

We approach God to overcome ourselves not indulge ourselves, there’s no happiness in any method but overcoming oneself. 🙂
Yes, I would. In reality, I’d prefer a wife that was sociable, devoted, outgoing, attractive and interesting over someone with less of these attributes with the addition of being a catholic. Time is of the essence as we only have one life according to the bible.

Evolution teaches us to have the most beautiful, strong, intelligent and confident children. I have a debt to genetics (as I am lucky enough to have even some of these attributes) and therefore am a very picky individual.

Love begins with attraction. And there is no more of a turn-off than not being attracted to your wife or the other way around.
 
Yes, I would. In reality, I’d prefer a wife that was sociable, devoted, outgoing, attractive and interesting over someone with less of these attributes with the addition of being a catholic. Time is of the essence as we only have one life according to the bible.

Evolution teaches us to have the most beautiful, strong, intelligent and confident children. I have a debt to genetics (as I am lucky enough to have even some of these attributes) and therefore am a very picky individual.

Love begins with attraction. And there is no more of a turn-off than not being attracted to your wife or the other way around.
True love is not based in the sensual. It is of souls who mutually love God and see God in each other.

Found love on dust, love disappears as you turn to dust. Found love on God in each other, it lasts forever.
 
True love is not based in the sensual. It is of souls who mutually love God and see God in each other.

Found love on dust, love disappears as you turn to dust. Found love on God in each other, it lasts forever.
Nice Idea. That isn’t really an incentive though. Love is stronger than any God. And my concept of afterlife is completely different.

I would love a person because I chose to. Not God.
 
Shin-

I think it’s best if you and I agree to disagree.

Cheers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top