Catholic definition of free will

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The purpose of this thread has been served; Linus gave me some good resources on what the Church teaches about free will. I can sense a hijacking taking place right now.
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
The purpose of this thread has been served; Linus gave me some good resources on what the Church teaches about free will. I can sense a hijacking taking place right now.
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Thank you. I hope you pursue all three sources, you will never regret it.

Linus2nd
 
tonyrey said:
Your argument is based on the unsubstantiated and unverifiable assumption that all mental activity is derived from physical events.
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Wrong! My argument holds true regardless of the metaphysics (materialism, dualism, or idealism). Mental determinism is just as deterministic as physical determinism.
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
The purpose of this thread has been served; Linus gave me some good resources on what the Church teaches about free will. I can sense a hijacking taking place right now.
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I have already furnished you with documentation concerning Aquinas’ position on free will. He apparently believed that free will involved an indeterminate aspect. And regardless of the official Catholic definition of free will, we know that it must either be compatible with determinism or indeterminism. Logic dictates this much.
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
The purpose of this thread has been served; Linus gave me some good resources on what the Church teaches about free will. I can sense a hijacking taking place right now.
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Don’t pay any attention to Counterpoint, he is just trying to throw dust in our eyes.

Linus2nd
 
Counterpoint said:
Wrong! My argument holds true regardless of the metaphysics (materialism, dualism, or idealism). Mental determinism is just as deterministic as physical determinism.
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You need to justify your assumption that** all **mental activity is deterministic. 🙂
 
tonyrey said:
You need to justify your assumption that** all **mental activity is deterministic. 🙂
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Either all mental activity is deterministic or it is not. If it is not deterministic, then it is indeterministic by default. That you refuse to acknowledge this logical truism doesn’t change it.
 
Counterpoint said:
Translation: “Just dispense with all critical thinking and blindly accept whatever the Church teaches.”
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The Church is the voice of God in this life. I accept nothing contrary to Magisterial Teaching. And there is nothing blind about it, I find the teaching of the Church quite reasonable indeed. I certainly wouldn’t take your path.

Linus2nd
 
Linusthe2nd said:
The Church is the voice of God in this life. I accept nothing contrary to Magisterial Teaching. And there is nothing blind about it, I find the teaching of the Church quite reasonable indeed. I certainly wouldn’t take your path.
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It would appear that have not because my path is based on rationalism and empiricism.
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
Counterpoint, I think you should watch these two videos on this if you are a sincere seeker of truth:
youtube.com/watch?v=xCwY36a19aQ
youtube.com/watch?v=TMp30Q8OGOE
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Firstly, you should only provide a link to support a claim made, not to substitute for an argument you cannot articulate.

Secondly, I watched the first video. It argues for libertarian free will by arguing for indeterminism. How exactly does that refute my argument that either determinism or indeterminism holds true?! :rolleyes:
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
The debate over free will often hangs around what in fact free will is. Some say that it means an agent could have done differently, and some reduce it to just a decision done voluntarily irrespective of whether or not the decision was determined. Is there any official Catholic teaching on what free will is?
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Simple, the will is the tendency for an action caused by an external stimulus to intellect or subconsciousness and freedom is the ability of intellect to chose when there are at least two stimuluses. Intellect itself is the collective memory of experiences. The fact that intellect is free has a deep root that collective memory rather than a single memory is used when a decision is involved.
 
Counterpoint said:
Either all mental activity is deterministic or it is not. If it is not deterministic, then it is indeterministic by default. That you refuse to acknowledge this logical truism doesn’t change it.
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Your “logic” is based on the unproven hypothesis that mental activity is in the same category as physical events. In other words it is a product of materialism and excludes spiritual reality…
 
tonyrey said:
Your “logic” is based on the unproven hypothesis that mental activity is in the same category as physical events. In other words it is a product of materialism and excludes spiritual reality…
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Have you ever experienced anything spiritual or you are claiming this based on pure facts?
 
Counterpoint said:
Firstly, you should only provide a link to support a claim made, not to substitute for an argument you cannot articulate.

Secondly, I watched the first video. It argues for libertarian free will by arguing for indeterminism. How exactly does that refute my argument that either determinism or indeterminism holds true?! :rolleyes:
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Why should I say the whole videos when I can link you to them? There’s no point.
Yes, and he argues that opens the door up for free will. Remember, the burden of proof is on the determinists to show that what we don’t have what we all think we have. And as he points out in the video (and the second one, if you watch it), undetermined does not mean completely random. We can have motives for our actions even if they don’t cause our actions. We are the ones that choose which thoughts and feelings to focus on so that we make our decision.
 
CatholicSoxFan said:
]Why should I say the whole videos when I can link you to them? There’s no point.
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Because this is a debate forum and the onus is upon you to make a succinct counterargument. Links are only to supplement an argument, not to substitute for one. Besides, you’re just posting these two videos to divert attention away from the fact that you can’t refute my argument.
CatholicSoxFan said:
Yes, and he argues that opens the door up for free will. Remember, the burden of proof is on the determinists to show that what we don’t have what we all think we have. And as he points out in the video (and the second one, if you watch it), undetermined does not mean completely random. We can have motives for our actions even if they don’t cause our actions. We are the ones that choose which thoughts and feelings to focus on so that we make our decision.
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My argument is that everything is either determined or it is not. If everything is not determined, then indeterminism holds true by default. So, regardless how you define free will, it must either be compatible with determinism or indeterminism. The second video invoked the “two-stage model of free will” to give an intelligible account of libertarian free will. The two-stage model (a model that I have not only discussed on various threads on this forum, but a model that I have specifically discussed on this very thread here) employs indeterminism to accomplish this! (It has to, because libertarianism must reconcile itself with indeterminism).

These videos don’t refute my argument. They make it! :rolleyes:
 
tonyrey said:
Your “logic” is based on the unproven hypothesis that mental activity is in the same category as physical events. In other words it is a product of materialism and excludes spiritual reality…
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If you continue to deliberately misconstrue my posts, then I will summarily dismiss your posts.
 
Counterpoint said:
If you continue to deliberately misconstrue my posts, then I will summarily dismiss your posts.
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You need to explain how your posts have been misconstrued. You seem to be putting mental activity is in the same category as physical activity by excluding self-determinism as if the self doesn’t exist or is simply the brain in action…
 
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