Catholic deification.

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Hey Melanie -

I stopped reading after that so I’m not sure what you said afterwards.

You’re unlikely to help me with insults. You assume a great deal about me, my experiences and my intellect with those remarks. I hope we get another chance to talk.

Your Friend

James
James, I was giving my opinion. I wasn’t trying to read your mind or give any opinion as to your personal experience, intellect, etc. Perhaps in reading my post you interpreted the word “you” to pertain to you personally. It does not. It is the generic “you”. I suppose I could write “one”, but that seems clumsy.

You misinterpreted my opinion. And as a general reminder, as I stated later in my post (which according to your post, you didn’t read) you are entitled to your opinion. I am also entitled to mine.

Cheers!
 
Hi MelanieAnne -

Of course you are entitled to your opinion. 🙂 You’re more than welcome to share it. I would never try to stop you. I might choose to stop listening if I feel your opinion is derogatory and closed minded. I’ve found discussion is rarely productive in that setting. That is my choice - you know? You don’t have to agree with me for us to have an interesting conversation. In fact I prefer talking with informed and thoughtful people who don’t agree with me. I learn a lot that way and I find it fascinating. It also causes me to constantly re-evaluate my own points of view.

You claim I misunderstood what you were saying. I’d love for you to clarify. When you said that “the problem I have with Mormon theology is that it makes no sense” I heard you tell me that what I believe is nonsense, it is nonsensical. Then why does it make sense to me? What kind of people believe in nonsense? Idiots and lunatics. Interesting.

When you said that to be a Mormon (which I am) you have to ‘check your brain at the door,’ I heard you say that no thinking person would believe what Mormons believe. But I do believe what I believe, very strongly. The only explanation then is I must not be thinking. If I were but to think a little I would quickly see the error of my ways. Hmmmmm.

Feel free to help me understand better what you really meant. Or, if you have no interest in continuing a dialogue with me - don’t. No biggie. I admit when I was younger I used to say things like you have but about… guess who… Catholics. “If they could just step back and look, they would see how ridiculous their beliefs are!” I wouldn’t be caught dead being so presumptuious now. I honestly believe that if I had lived your life and had your experiences I would probably believe much like you do. I haven’t. I’ve had my experiences. I could learn from yours if you want to share. If not - that’s fine too.

=) James
 
partly. we think it equally blasphemous to go back the other direction and reduce God to one of us who “made it”.
Amen. God the Father has no human body, and was NEVER a human being. He is, was, and always will be, God the Father. It is blasphemous to suggest otherwise.
 
Frances did a great job of charitably trying to explain that there is much more than semantics involved in the mormon beliefs, even if you personal beliefs more closely mirror Catholic ones and seem to you to be mere semantics. The difference between official Mormon doctrine and official Catholic doctrine is not just semantics, even if the difference between your personal beliefs and Catholic ones are just semantics.

I am not sure how you are going to actually dialogue with anyone if you continue to stop reading what they write simply because you don’t want to hear what is said.

Sincerely,
Maria
 
Gosh James, this is the 3rd time I have tried to respond & I had the first 2 attempts torpedoed by my own computer keyboard bumbling, so at least please give me credit for what my Mother (rest her soul) would have called my “stick-to-it-iveness”!

When I wrote my previous post, I was expressing my opinion. I was not saying anything about you, or at least not you, personally. Yes, I said that Mormon theology made no sense. For the sake of clarity, it may have been better for me to have said that Mormon theology made no sense TO ME.

You are entitled to your opinion, just as I am entitled to mine. (Isn’t religious freedom handy? 😃 ) That something makes no sense to me does not imply that I believe that you are a “lunatic” or an “idiot” or any such thing and such claims on your part are not productive. But I am sorry for any lack of clarity in my post. By the same token, please do me the courtesy of not inferring slights where I have not made them.

I have a very dear friend, who has been my friend for over 40 years, who is Mormon. I know most of the extended family and they number well over 50 people ~ all born and raised Mormons and married in various Mormon temples, their kids have been going on missions & getting married in temples, you get the picture I’m sure.

I also live in southern California where Mormonism is very common and where I have many other Mormon friends. In the course of these many friendships I have attended many Mormon functions, activities and meetings. There is nothing you can tell me about Mormonism that I don’t already know. Because I have assisted them in many activities, the local Mormon stake accepts me as “one of them” even though I am not.

When I say I do not believe that Mormon doctrine makes sense, I not only do not intend any slight towards you, basically a total stranger to me, I also do not intend any slight towards these many dear friends that I have had for 20-40 years. And I am sure if I told them I do not believe as they do, and that the Mormon theology didn’t make sense to me, they would understand that, and take no offense. So it is a mystery to me why you would, but there you are.

(continued)
 
(continued from previous post)

There are many aspects of Mormon theology that make no sense to me. One of the most dramatic episodes in forming this opinion occurred when I witnessed an adult scripture study class where the instructor, a very learned and well respected individual, discussed the translation of the Mormon scriptures by Joseph Smith. He explained to this class that the translation was done using magic rocks that Joseph Smith held at the bottom of a hat, into which he peered and somehow discerned the meaning of the words, translated from another ancient language into English.

This process was also accomplished with Joseph Smith positioned with some sort of barrier between himself and whoever was writing down the words he was dictating, such that the person writing could not see Joseph peering at the rocks at the bottom of the hat.

When this information was given in this meeting, and I have since learned that it is accurate doctrine, the news created a firestorm of protest, mostly with lifelong Mormons, because they had never heard this information before & they objected. It made them uncomfortable.

I subsequently learned from a young man who had previously served a 2 year Mormon mission in Poland that missionaries are taught, as part of their training, to give a diversionary answer in the event this topic is ever raised by a prospective member, to basically CHANGE THE SUBJECT but not to actually address it.

For this reason, for all this hiding of doctrine, and, at least to me, for preposterous stories such as translating scripture with magic rocks held at the bottom of a hat, I came to the conclusion that in order to believe Mormon theology, someone would have to “check their brain at the door” because, taken as a whole, I thought the whole thing was rather silly.

That I have such an opinion says nothing about you personally James, and, even if you choose to take it personally, I didn’t, after all, impose the situation on you, the Mormon church has, by hiding this and, who knows, perhaps many other things, from its members.

Catholics, and many other Christians, believe that Mormonism is not a Christian faith, regardless of how nice their people are and despite the name of their church. It is not intended to be a criticism, it is simply descriptive. The fact is that the theology of the Mormon church is utterly incompatible with Catholicism and most Christian faiths.

Many people also believe that Mormonism is a cult. I’m sure that most Mormons would be offended by that term (as they might also be offended by being described as non-Christian). The case of “Christian v. non-Christian” is a definition based on theology. It wouldn’t be reasonable to expect a Catholic to apologize for being a Catholic, so it is not wrong for us to distinguish our faith from another. The case of “cult” is much more subjective, but it is, in my experience, based on behavior and may be very well founded.

I have personally witnessed the literal shunning of persons who were once members of the Mormon church who stopped going to church. Is this part of the Mormon church doctrine? Probably not, but I don’t really know, I never asked.

But is this behavior similar to a cult? Yes, very definitely. Perhaps the friendships formed by the person I know that was shunned were just shallow, who can say? But since I have heard this same sort of story repeated numerous times, with reference to many different people, it seems to be the rule, even if it may be an “unwritten” one. Mormons did this, not the rest of the world. Similarly, Mormons who choose to leave the church on their own, for reasons of doctrine, find it is very difficult to extricate themselves from the lifestyle. We have had Catholics on this forum who still go to the Mormon church for social reasons.

So James, be offended if you choose to be. But by bringing you these facts, I am not the one creating offense, I am merely the messenger. 🙂
The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the holy Spirit be with all of you.
2 Corinthians 13
 
Hi Maria - thanks for your post. I agree that Frances made some great points. I was really enjoying our exchange. He was disagreeing with me but in a respectful considerate way - almost as if we were equals - with differing points of view. But then his tone changed.

Why don’t you try this on and tell me how interested you are in my opinion afterwards -
What Mormons believe is ‘reality’, what Catholics believe is ‘unreality.’
Your Pope and his successors are ‘misguided’ and their lives belie their true natures for all with eyes to see.
Your god is a god of ‘vain imaginings.’
Or how about Melanie’s ‘opinions’ turned around.
…the problem I have with Catholic theology is that it makes no sense…
Among the many things I like about being a Mormon is that I don’t have to check my brain at the door. In order to be a Catholic, you do.
=) Do you really care about anything I have to say now? Contrast those remarks with the other posters on this thread. They all disagreed with me too - but none of them insulted my intellect or slandered the people and beliefs I hold dear.

Netiquette is challenging. The anonymity of faceless text makes it easy to disrespect people. Kinda like road rage. People do things to total strangers on the road they would never think of doing to their neighbor. Rather than raging back I’ve decided to just change lanes when people are leaning out their windows, giving me the finger - so to speak.

Thanks for posting. I’m interested in your thoughts.
 
Thanks James, guess I’ll put you on ignore, that way I won’t waste my evening again, thoughtfully answering your inquiry.:rolleyes:
 
Melanie - I really appreciated your clarification. Though ‘cumbersome’ the addition of qualifiers like 'Mormon theology makes no sense to me ’ is received very differently than passing the definitive edict ‘Mormon theology makes no sense (period.)’ Maybe you don’t see the difference. I respect that. I can tell you that your previous post and your most recent post were like night and day to me. I could talk with nice Melanie all day. 🙂 Melanie with the gavel in her hand - not so interested. Do you know what I mean? I hope so. Again I recognize how difficult it is to convey emotion via text and the barrier is bidirectional. Though hurt, I wouldn’t say I was choosing to be offended. I chose to enforce my boundaries - and thus remain un-offended.

I’m going to be really honest - these forums have consumed an inordinate amount of my time and energy the last few days. I probably won’t be back on for a bit. I did want to give you my take on the two questions you’ve repeated. I hope to leave no hanging quandaries and rudely just duck out.

As to how JS translated the book of Mormon - the idea of using ‘magic rocks’ is as bizarre to me as it seems to be to you. When was the last time you used ‘magic rocks’ to do anything? Such a weird scene insults our intellect and makes us scratch our head. We are modern. Magic rocks are not. But before your throw the ‘magic rocks’ out with the bath water you need to understand what they are - Seer stones and the Urim Thumin are holy instruments used by God’s prophets in the Old testament. I think even Catholics believe that. I don’t have time to give you the references but I think you will find that there is a scriptural precedent for the very activity that JS claimed to be engaged in. What about other ‘weird’ things God has done? A donkey that talks to a guy (Numbers 22) A serpent that talks to Eve. Jesus rubbing spit and dirt on some one’s eyes to make them see. Moses turning a stick in to a snake. These are crazy magical things (to me.) Yet God chose to do them. I fully anticipate you’ll have an alternate explanation that makes what JS did different than all of these things but - this is how I see it. One thing our church definitely does for me is makes me question my assumptions.

Secondly and much more definitively I can tell you that it is not Mormon Doctrine to shun people who leave the church. Church members may, unfortunately do all sorts of stupid and insensitive things. I see and hear Mormon’s do and say things every week that make me sad. They are people. And people are insensitive. But I can tell you that the LDS church makes a huge organized effort to maintain positive yet non intrusive contact with those who leave the church. I have been a counselor to 3 different Bishops and every one of them spent part of our weekly meeting talking about how to continue to fellowship and serve people who had left the church. If people formally leave the church and have their names removed from our records - we have to be very careful to not contact them as some have sought legal action. If you are referring to social ostracism by the members - it may simply be that active Mormons feel awkward around people who have made different choices. Doctrine - no. Human failing - yes.

Good night. Thanks for your post.

James
 
Ah crud. I hope you didn’t already put me on ignore. Wouldn’t blame you though if you thought I had read your clarification before posting to Maria.
 
Ah crud. I hope you didn’t already put me on ignore. Wouldn’t blame you though if you thought I had read your clarification before posting to Maria.
If she wants to put you on ignore, let her put you on ignore. She will do you a favor if she does! I put her on ignore ages ago, and never though I missed anything.

zerinus
 
As to how JS translated the book of Mormon - the idea of using ‘magic rocks’ is as bizarre to me as it seems to be to you. When was the last time you used ‘magic rocks’ to do anything? Such a weird scene insults our intellect and makes us scratch our head. We are modern. Magic rocks are not. But before your throw the ‘magic rocks’ out with the bath water you need to understand what they are - Seer stones and the Urim Thumin are holy instruments used by God’s prophets in the Old testament. I think even Catholics believe that.
James
no. the best information we have on the urim and thummim of the bible is that they were two stones, one white and one black that were attached to the breastplate of the high priest and used to obtain yes or no answers. this in contrast to the LDS version that are described as being like spectacles that were used to view the plates and give exact wording of the translation.I would add though that the earliest LDS accounts usually had the plates hidden and Joseph placing the “seer stone” in his hat and seeing the words in it as if written on parchment. Many LDS have over the years used the U&T and the seer stone interchangeably. this appears in error as the U&T were alleged to have been taken back by moroni and the seer stone was used to obtain some sections of the D&C and is still in the possession of the LDS church. it has been displayed at BYU before but not recently that I am aware of.

I think the whole concept somewhat problematic since Joseph smith claimed to have been personally visited by Elohim and Jehovah and to have received angelic visitors whenever anything important needed doing. this would seem to contraindicate any need for less direct communications like peep stones.

You might enjoy reading Quinn’s early mormonism and the magical world view. he used to be the LDS church historian and had access to many rare documents that give an interesting look at mormon origins.
 
The visual metaphor for Catholic Theosis: The Metal Poker in the Flame.

A metal poker becomes white hot when inserted into a flame. The flame represents God. The heat and light of the flame represent divine characteristics of God. The flame is Gods essence.

When the metal poker is in the flame it emits heat and light, or in other words it is able to take on divine characteristics of the flame. The source of these divine characteristics is God, not the metal poker. When removed from the flame the metal poker is still just a metal poker. At no time did the metal poker ever take on the essence of the flame. The metal poker only passed on like a radio repeater what God broadcast through it.

So is saved man nothing more than fallen man passively experiencing God, and because of his proximity to God he takes on divine nature?

Quoting Majik:

“Similarly, those humans whom God takes into heaven will dwell in his presence and thus be able to experience all that God has. Yet we will never become God.”

I would hope that those divine characteristics we exhibit in heaven were what we truly are. The light we broadcast is generated because the heat of divinity is within us. A result of going through the refiners’ fire and then finding, “we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

What I find interesting is the verse that follows in 1 John 3. It says, “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” I don’t believe the purification process is done in the absence of God, but God won’t make you do it if you don’t want to. Those who find themselves in God’s presence cooperated with him in making themselves like him.

After becoming like him, we will be principals of action, not being acted upon. Continuing to live our own experiences. Feeling love because we are loving. Doing the will of the Father. Unified with the Father and His Son as Christ said in John 17:21, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” How do I become one with them ? Am I assumed into the divine essence or do I become god like and do the works of God? If I’m doing the works of God, what are those works?
 
The visual metaphor for Catholic Theosis: The Metal Poker in the Flame.

A metal poker becomes white hot when inserted into a flame. The flame represents God. The heat and light of the flame represent divine characteristics of God. The flame is Gods essence.

When the metal poker is in the flame it emits heat and light, or in other words it is able to take on divine characteristics of the flame. The source of these divine characteristics is God, not the metal poker. When removed from the flame the metal poker is still just a metal poker. At no time did the metal poker ever take on the essence of the flame. The metal poker only passed on like a radio repeater what God broadcast through it.

So is saved man nothing more than fallen man passively experiencing God, and because of his proximity to God he takes on divine nature?

Quoting Majik:

“Similarly, those humans whom God takes into heaven will dwell in his presence and thus be able to experience all that God has. Yet we will never become God.”

I would hope that those divine characteristics we exhibit in heaven were what we truly are. The light we broadcast is generated because the heat of divinity is within us. A result of going through the refiners’ fire and then finding, “we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

What I find interesting is the verse that follows in 1 John 3. It says, “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” I don’t believe the purification process is done in the absence of God, but God won’t make you do it if you don’t want to. Those who find themselves in God’s presence cooperated with him in making themselves like him.

After becoming like him, we will be principals of action, not being acted upon. Continuing to live our own experiences. Feeling love because we are loving. Doing the will of the Father. Unified with the Father and His Son as Christ said in John 17:21, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” How do I become one with them ? Am I assumed into the divine essence or do I become god like and do the works of God? If I’m doing the works of God, what are those works?
Here’s an interesting post by David Waltz on deification (also from a Catholic Perspective):

defensorveritatis.net/?p=860#comment-12130

blessings,
 
The visual metaphor for Catholic Theosis: The Metal Poker in the Flame.

A metal poker becomes white hot when inserted into a flame. The flame represents God. The heat and light of the flame represent divine characteristics of God. The flame is Gods essence.

When the metal poker is in the flame it emits heat and light, or in other words it is able to take on divine characteristics of the flame. The source of these divine characteristics is God, not the metal poker. When removed from the flame the metal poker is still just a metal poker. At no time did the metal poker ever take on the essence of the flame. The metal poker only passed on like a radio repeater what God broadcast through it.

So is saved man nothing more than fallen man passively experiencing God, and because of his proximity to God he takes on divine nature?

Quoting Majik:

“Similarly, those humans whom God takes into heaven will dwell in his presence and thus be able to experience all that God has. Yet we will never become God.”

I would hope that those divine characteristics we exhibit in heaven were what we truly are. The light we broadcast is generated because the heat of divinity is within us. A result of going through the refiners’ fire and then finding, “we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.” (1 John 3:2)

What I find interesting is the verse that follows in 1 John 3. It says, “And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.” I don’t believe the purification process is done in the absence of God, but God won’t make you do it if you don’t want to. Those who find themselves in God’s presence cooperated with him in making themselves like him.

After becoming like him, we will be principals of action, not being acted upon. Continuing to live our own experiences. Feeling love because we are loving. Doing the will of the Father. Unified with the Father and His Son as Christ said in John 17:21, “That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.” How do I become one with them ? Am I assumed into the divine essence or do I become god like and do the works of God? If I’m doing the works of God, what are those works?
no i think we become like God because we are in his presence. I believe we are his creations and while our actions can lead us to him, it is only by HIS actions that we experience divinity. we become “one” with him in the beatific vision where he shares himself with us. our “pokers” are placed in his “fire”.
 
Hello. I have been fascinated while reading about the Catholic tradition of deification recently. Could someone explain their understanding of this Catholic doctrine and how it differs from Mormon theology?

Thank you =)
Hi James -

Catholics do not deify. To deify someone is to make that person a god (deity). The Egyptians and Roman senate used to do that a few thousand years ago.

Could you be refering to canonization, or the Catholic practice of recognising a person as a saint?

Or are you refering to theosis, the taking part in God’s divinity?

Subrosa
 
But before your throw the ‘magic rocks’ out with the bath water you need to understand what they are - Seer stones and the Urim Thumin are holy instruments used by God’s prophets in the Old testament. I think even Catholics believe that. I don’t have time to give you the references but I think you will find that there is a scriptural precedent for the very activity that JS claimed to be engaged in.
Hi James,
Just so that you will understand, Catholics and other Christians do not believe that Urim and Thummim were crystal spectacles or “seer stones”. And there is no biblical reference to Urim and Thummim being used to translate languages.

Urim and Thummim were indeed stones, but non-LDS scholars understand them to be the 2 small onyx stones (not crystal) engraved with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel that were kept in the breastplate of the high priest of Israel (not in the possession of prophets, BTW) as described first in Exodus chapter 28.

Anyway, the issue of Urim and Thummim is irrelevant to the JS story. Joseph claimed to have found the Urim and Thummim with the gold plates, but never reported using them in any way. All of the reports of JS’s use of “seer stones” in translating the BoM, the Book of Abraham, and even the Kinderhook Plates involved the stone his brother Alvin found while they were digging a well. This is the seer stone Joseph purported to use throughout his prophetic carreer.

The concept of “scrying” (crystal gazing) to obtain information is never cited in Christian literature except when it is condemned.

God bless,
Paul
 
It’s too bad this thread has gotten a bit off track, because on Brad Haas’ Defensor Veritatis website that focuses on Catholic ‘responses’ to Mormonism, there is an excellent discussion taking place w.r.t. the concept of deification in Catholicism. The specific posts to deification can be found here:

defensorveritatis.net/?p=860#comments

It would definitely be nice to see some more Catholic voices on this forum!

God bless,
Mike
 
Hi Maria - thanks for your post. I agree that Frances made some great points. I was really enjoying our exchange. He was disagreeing with me but in a respectful considerate way - almost as if we were equals - with differing points of view. But then his tone changed.

Why don’t you try this on and tell me how interested you are in my opinion afterwards -

Or how about Melanie’s ‘opinions’ turned around.

=) Do you really care about anything I have to say now? Contrast those remarks with the other posters on this thread. They all disagreed with me too - but none of them insulted my intellect or slandered the people and beliefs I hold dear.

Netiquette is challenging. The anonymity of faceless text makes it easy to disrespect people. Kinda like road rage. People do things to total strangers on the road they would never think of doing to their neighbor. Rather than raging back I’ve decided to just change lanes when people are leaning out their windows, giving me the finger - so to speak.

Thanks for posting. I’m interested in your thoughts.
👋 James,

Maybe because I have been around on these forums for awhile, I would take apart your post piece by piece, including pointing out those things that I found offensive, so the people I am dialoging with will try to avoid it in the future if possible.

There is no body language. There is no “tone” that can help us understand what another is saying. Patience and perseverance are required for truly fruitful dialogue.

I pray that things go better on this thread and understanding can be reached, even if agreement can not.

I will continue to read, but as I have little understanding of Mormon theology, I don’t know as I can contribute a lot on that front, but am interested in learning more. As well, I tend to speak with an inexactness that would be confusing in this discussion. This discussion is about fine points of theology, Catholic and Mormon, and I am afraid I would muddy the waters with my imprecise word choices:o

I would remind Catholic posters though, that if you are going to tell a mormon what mormon theology is, you may wish to back it up with sources since it is what I would demand when someone tries to tell me what Catholics believe:)

Peace all,
Maria
 
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