Catholic devotion to Orthodox saints and vice-versa

[EIF5A]

Is it possible without excommunicating yourself?

Not to minimize the gravity of the schism, but for us little people (the laity) who need all the help we can from pious saints, is it wrong to pray to or show devotion to saints in the other lung?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

As I understand, some eastern Catholics venerate Gregory Palamas despite his vicious opposition to filioque. So at any rate its tolerated to a certain extent.

 

[EIF5A]

In either Church tradition, has there ever been an apparition regarding the schism and the desire for reunification?

 

[RyanBlack]

As I understand, some eastern Catholics venerate Gregory Palamas despite his vicious opposition to filioque. So at any rate its tolerated to a certain extent.

You are correct. St. Gregory Palamas is venerated in both the Ruthenian and Melkite Churches (and maybe others as well).

 

[Cavaradossi]

As I understand, some eastern Catholics venerate Gregory Palamas despite his vicious opposition to filioque. So at any rate its tolerated to a certain extent.

I would not characterize St. Gregory Palamas’ opposition to the filioque as being vicious. He merely felt that the Latins were confused and imprecise with their terminology, and that they needed to confess the filioque in the same sense as the eternal manifestation of the Spirit through the Son (he likely would also have wanted for it to be removed from the Creed, but the entire Greek Speaking East wished for that at that time), which was a rather eirenic stance all things considered.

 

[Trebor135]

In either Church tradition, has there ever been an apparition regarding the schism and the desire for reunification?

If such a thing has happened, I’d very much like to know.

 

[Rawb]

I’ve been told by Roman Catholics that they would find no problem with venerating Orthodox saints who are not just not-Catholic, but who were Catholic apostates or who were heartily anti-Catholic. St. Mark of Ephesus, who opposed reunion at the “Council” of Florence, and St. Alexis Toth, who was an Eastern Catholic Priest who led hundreds out of Eastern Catholicism and into Orthodoxy, and St. Peter the Aleut, who was tortured to death by Catholic Missionaries in California and St. Peter the Roman who chose, post-Schism, to leave Roman Catholicism for what he felt was the truth of Orthodoxy were all in the list. So it does happen.

In Orthodoxy you’re allowed to privately venerate non-Orthodox saints, but I don’t know of any who do other than some with St. Francis (who some ‘ok’ because he apparently appeared in a vision to some Protestants once telling them to become Orthodox and that it was the true Church). Though this private veneration is allowed we appear to be more strict about allowing veneration of saints who taught or preached or acted contrary to the beliefs of Orthodoxy. I know that there are many Catholic saints who it is considered wildly inappropriate to venerate, such as Thomas Aquinas or (currently only Blessed) Cardinal Stepinac.

There are also many saints who are considered traditionally Roman, but who the Orthodox venerate because they are pre-Schism, such as St. Patrick of Ireland, St. Gregory Pope of Rome, or St. Augustine.

 

[EIF5A]

St. Peter the Aleut, who was tortured to death by Catholic Missionaries in California

There must have been political coercion, right…? Not that it makes it any less gruesome…

How awful to be torturing fellow believers

 

[Ion]

When you read the story you might see other possibility; maybe because he didn’t want to convert he was left to be judged and punished by the soldiers; what other reason could have been used in order to save him?

 

[Rawb]

There must have been political coercion, right…? Not that it makes it any less gruesome…

How awful to be torturing fellow believers

Here’s his story.

I’m sure it happens on both sides, I just don’t know any that the Orthodox have ever done.

Edit: I’ll also add that some people doubt his existence, and you can read about that here.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

St. Peter the Aleut, who was tortured to death by Catholic Missionaries in California

In Orthodoxy you’re allowed to privately venerate non-Orthodox saints

St. Peter the Aleut is my favorite Saint! I pray to him everyday and teach my girls to do the same. He lived in California like us, but was born in Alaska like me and he loved his Orthodox Faith even to the point of enduring horrific to torchures may God grant us his endurance in the Faith. A Catholic I’ve spoken to, James Likoudis, denies St. Peter the Aleut’s very existence which I found very insulting and lacking in any credibility.

I pray to St. Anthony constantly and he always comes through to help me find lost things. I’m not 100% sure if it’s St. Anthony the Great (Orthodox) I have a holy icon of him I venerate or St. Anthony of Padoua (Catholic) I have a tiny glow-in-thedark statue of him, I’m not sure who responds to me, but who ever he is, I thank him very much for being in the habit of answering my prayers before I even finish the prayer asking for his help. :thankyou: THANK YOU St. Anthony!

 

[Ion]

Here’s his story.

I’m sure it happens on both sides, I just don’t know any that the Orthodox have ever done.

Edit: I’ll also add that some people doubt his existence, and you can read about that here.

Wiki has a version with more details, but is a wiki …I don’t think that spaniards were after people in order to catch and convert them…

 

[EIF5A]

Hmm…I’m not sure if I want the account of St. Peter the Aleut to be true or not…on the one hand, I would hate to think Franciscan priests tortured a Christian…on the other hand, the story of martyrdom and dying for his faith is inspirational.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I would not characterize St. Gregory Palamas’ opposition to the filioque as being vicious. He merely felt that the Latins were confused and imprecise with their terminology, and that they needed to confess the filioque in the same sense as the eternal manifestation of the Spirit through the Son (he likely would also have wanted for it to be removed from the Creed, but the entire Greek Speaking East wished for that at that time), which was a rather eirenic stance all things considered.

I would say the same thing of Saint Basil’s critiques or insults against Eunomius. At the very least the fathers didn’t heistate to speak harshly. Not that I dissagree with Saint Gregory.

 

[Ion]

Hmm…I’m not sure if I want the account of St. Peter the Aleut to be true or not…on the one hand, I would hate to think Franciscan priests tortured a Christian…on the other hand, the story of martyrdom and dying for his faith is inspirational.

Bottom line, he would have saved himself by giving up his beliefs, he might have known nothing about catholicism. But I think that the priest tried to save him from the condemnation, and the soldiers just took it their way.

 

[1Tim215Mommy]

Bottom line, he would have saved himself by giving up his beliefs, he might have known nothing about catholicism. But I think that the priest tried to save him from the condemnation, and the soldiers just took it their way.

Why would soldiers care what religion someone was? That the priest ordered the torchure is consistent with other historically recorded torchures ordered by Catholic priests or bishops, like during the inquisitions.

 

[Rawb]

Wiki has a version with more details, but is a wiki …I don’t think that spaniards were after people in order to catch and convert them…

No, I agree. If you read the second link I posted talking about whether he existed or not it goes into such logistics as this. It is a fact, however, that around the time of St. Peter’s abduction a Spanish crew seized another crew of Native Alaskans and took some prisoner back to their mission. It wasn’t that they were particularly looking to convert them, it was that the mission was their base of operations. It just so happened to be a religious center.

The second link also goes into how there are three accounts, and the hagiography of the OCA website seems to be trying to base itself off the earlier accounts, which were less detailed. See, St. Peter was martyred and five years later his cellmate happened to escape. He told the Russians back home in Alaska what he had seen and left. The Russians wrote it down once in a report, then wrote a brief description of the report as a sort of cover letter which was attached to the report and sent off to some higher-ups somewhere. Then something like twenty years later the original report-writer wrote it down again, and seems to have embellished and ‘hagiographied’ it a bit. So more details may not be more accurate, in this case.

Personally I believe it. It is a fact that there are no other currently known of times of torture used by the Spanish Catholics in California, but that almost makes it all the more believable - it was probably a single priest who had some issues. As he was a Spaniard it is possible that, as another poster mentions, he saw himself in the great tradition of the Spanish Inquisition. There are reports of two other Alaskan natives in the area who could’ve translated. We know the ship was captured…idk, just seems likely to me.

 

[dvdjs]

There is a lot of great reading on line about the story of Peter the Aleut. Unfortunately some great blogging by and Orthodox priests is no longer available, but there is considerable discussion of his work and the work of others at orthodoxhistory.org

Here are some good links:
moses.creighton.edu/jrs/2007/2007-3.pdf
eirenikon.wordpress.com/2009/11/27/on-peter-the-aleut/
startingontheroyalpath.blogspot.com/2010/04/st-peter-aleut.html
orthodoxhistory.org/2011/01/31/is-the-st-peter-the-aleut-story-true/
orthodoxhistory.org/2011/02/02/primary-sources-on-st-peter-the-aleut/
orthodoxhistory.org/2011/02/07/guest-article-on-st-peter-the-aleut/
orthodoxhistory.org/2011/02/10/excerpt-richard-pierce-on-st-peter-the-aleut-2/
orthodoxhistory.org/2011/02/11/iakov-babin-the-ilmena-island-massacre-of-1815-2/
orthodoxhistory.org/2011/10/24/peter-the-aleut-the-original-martyrdom-account/

Bottom line: the evidence supporting the story is woefully lacking, the story is elaborated over time, accumulating errors and inconsistencies. The evidence is so weak that the real question is why would the OCA move for glorification? That question is addressed by EO writers in the above links.

. It is a fact that there are no other currently known of times of torture used by the Spanish Catholics in California, but that almost makes it all the more believable - it was probably a single priest who had some issues

The problem with this idea is that the event was reported as typical of the Spanish.

 

[tdgesq]

Well, might as well bring up Photius of Constantinople then.

 

[5Loaves]

Edit: I’ll also add that some people doubt his existence, and you can read about that here.

I’ve always felt a special sense of devotion to St. Peter the Aleut. We venerate him in my parish with All Saints of America and Russia, a Feast we only just celebrated on July 7th

Still I have wondered how it could be that Franciscan Missionaries were responsible for his death. Fr John Veniaminov (who later became St Innocent) had good relations with the Franciscans. Only 20 years after St Peter was said to have been martyred St Innocent spent time with the Friars at Mission San Rafael, Mission San Jose, Mission Santa Clara, and Mission San Francisco de Asís (AKA Mission Dolores). I first heard this from a local Orthodox priest who spoke of the records of Fr John and the Franciscans praying the Our Father together in Latin. They conversed in Latin, a language which Fr John (St Innocent) had learned at the seminary in Irkutsk.

These visits to the Franciscan Missions were when Fr John was also visiting Ft Ross. It has seemed like such a terrible crime against any Orthodox as that which is said to have happened to St Peter would have surely been part of the oral history.

The earliest Orthodox priests who came to Alaska are known for their work for the rights of the native peoples there who certainly were being brutalized by other Russians in Alaska.