Catholic Disillusioned by Confederate Flag Defense by Pro-Life Catholic Radio Folks

[Claire091166]

I am a black woman who listens to a lot of Catholic Radio. In the past few years, I have been surprised by the vociferous defense of the Confederate Flag by my fellow passionate pro-life Catholics, so much so that it seems that the only folks defending the flag are the Catholics who listen to catholic radio and White Nationalists.

This has made me disillusioned with the pro-life movement to the extent that I did not attend last year’s Walk for Life West Coast. I have attended every walk since it’s inception and was even instrumental in inviting one of the past speakers.

Of course, I am still and always will be pro-life, but I just cannot bring myself to listen to Catholic Radio or participate in any pro-life events.

White folks often ask me about the dismal lack of African American participation in the pro-life movement (Alveda King, Pastor Hoy et al not withstanding) and I explain that the movement seems more “concerned” with black people in the womb, but not when they are attacked by police or killed in a church in the name of the Confederate Flag.

Nazi flags are not flown in public because of the hatred it signifies for the Jewish people. Why can’t the same courtesy of not displaying the confederate flag/monuments be extended to black people?

And no, black lives matter is not representative of black folks. I mention that because I know someone else will.

 

[jeannetherese]

I’ve been listening to Catholic radio for many years and have never heard discussion of flags. Is there a particular episode of a program which you might point to so that we might examine the case which gives you concern?
I have heard Alveda King on Catholic radio and my experience of Catholic radio is that it is a strong voice in defense of black babies and that it encourages listeners to grow in faith and charity.
May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
Amen.

 

[Claire091166]

I’ve been listening to Catholic radio for many years and have never heard discussion of flags. Is there a particular episode of a program which you might point to so that we might examine the case which gives you concern?
I have heard Alveda King on Catholic radio and my experience of Catholic radio is that it is a strong voice in defense of black babies and that it encourages listeners to grow in faith and charity.
May God bless you and all who visit this thread.
Amen.

Thanks for your encouragement. I listen Immaculate Heart Radio and right after the events in Charlottesville, I heard defense of the flag by Patrick Madrid and Jesse and Terry. I tuned out after last Monday’s episode because I couldn’t take it anymore. Patrick Madrid also stood up for the flag after the Church shooting of 9 black people in 2015. Also heard a defense by Doug Keck on Teresa Tomeo’s EWTN show last year.

I think it’s sad, because Cath Radio does encourage listeners, but it seems more “concerned” about black babies in the womb than black folks outside the womb.

 

[randomuser]

I am a black woman who listens to a lot of Catholic Radio. In the past few years, I have been surprised by the vociferous defense of the Confederate Flag by my fellow passionate pro-life Catholics, so much so that it seems that the only folks defending the flag are the Catholics who listen to catholic radio and White Nationalists.

This has made me disillusioned with the pro-life movement to the extent that I did not attend last year’s Walk for Life West Coast. I have attended every walk since it’s inception and was even instrumental in inviting one of the past speakers.

Of course, I am still and always will be pro-life, but I just cannot bring myself to listen to Catholic Radio or participate in any pro-life events.

White folks often ask me about the dismal lack of African American participation in the pro-life movement (Alveda King, Pastor Hoy et al not withstanding) and I explain that the movement seems more “concerned” with black people in the womb, but not when they are attacked by police or killed in a church in the name of the Confederate Flag.

Nazi flags are not flown in public because of the hatred it signifies for the Jewish people. Why can’t the same courtesy of not displaying the confederate flag/monuments be extended to black people?

And no, black lives matter is not representative of black folks. I mention that because I know someone else will.

A lot of what you’re talking about is “pro-birth,” not truly pro-life.

It’s not ‘pro-life’ to essentially deify losers - literally losers - at the expense of decency and compassion to all Americans.

I agree with you.

 

[DebChris]

After Dylan Roof killed the people he did, I learned some things about the Confederate flag that I didn’t know before. Perhaps it’s because of the effort to ban it; I really dislike censorship.
The War Between the States was more than about Blacks and Whites. It pitted brother against brother and tore a nation apart. 50,000 Blacks died fighting for the Confederacy, a fact that I did not know. Nor did I know the meaning behind the St. Andrew flag, or how in future wars it would become a rallying call of support and unity instead of division. “Southern Boys have your back.”
I did not know that the Cherokee nation was in the midst of its own Civil War at the time. Some fought for the Union and others for the Confederacy. Some Native American tribes fought for the South because of their own conflict with the Federal government. Others fought for the Union.
One thing I was able to do during the short period of time that I lived in Louisiana was visit the cemetery in Vicksburg, MS. It honors the lives of both Confederate and Union soldiers who lost their lives during the war in which more American lives were lost than any other. Most were unknown.
I did not know that by statute Confederate soldiers are now considered veterans.
I did know about Naval blockade of Southern ports, but never considered that the ships that sailed at that time were all built in New England.

I did learn other things as well. I have lived in different parts of the country and the world. No, I don’t like seeing the present divisions in my country continue to grow.

I don’t own a television. It is interesting being able to watch some old television shows on YouTube. Check out Rifleman"Sheridan Story" and Bonanza"Weary Willies."

The South was destroyed during the War and Reconstruction. The nation began to identify itself using the singular verb. It finally saw itself as one.

 

[dmelosi]

I am a black woman who listens to a lot of Catholic Radio. In the past few years, I have been surprised by the vociferous defense of the Confederate Flag by my fellow passionate pro-life Catholics, so much so that it seems that the only folks defending the flag are the Catholics who listen to catholic radio and White Nationalists.

This has made me disillusioned with the pro-life movement to the extent that I did not attend last year’s Walk for Life West Coast. I have attended every walk since it’s inception and was even instrumental in inviting one of the past speakers.

Of course, I am still and always will be pro-life, but I just cannot bring myself to listen to Catholic Radio or participate in any pro-life events.

White folks often ask me about the dismal lack of African American participation in the pro-life movement (Alveda King, Pastor Hoy et al not withstanding) and I explain that the movement seems more “concerned” with black people in the womb, but not when they are attacked by police or killed in a church in the name of the Confederate Flag.

Nazi flags are not flown in public because of the hatred it signifies for the Jewish people. Why can’t the same courtesy of not displaying the confederate flag/monuments be extended to black people?

And no, black lives matter is not representative of black folks. I mention that because I know someone else will.

I have given this a lot of thought over the past couple of months and have to say I agree with you on the confederate symbols 100%. I think your example of the nazi flags is a good one. Both do nothing but show that the people flying them support those feelings.

I believe it will come to this realization by most and am sorry for your pain until it does.

But don’t let this chip away at your pro-life views, there are still those out there that try to change the meaning of it to ease their own conscience for supporting the party they are married to.

 

[jeannetherese]

Thanks for your encouragement. I listen Immaculate Heart Radio and right after the events in Charlottesville, I heard defense of the flag by Patrick Madrid and Jesse and Terry. I tuned out after last Monday’s episode because I couldn’t take it anymore. Patrick Madrid also stood up for the flag after the Church shooting of 9 black people in 2015. Also heard a defense by Doug Keck on Teresa Tomeo’s EWTN show last year.

I think it’s sad, because Cath Radio does encourage listeners, but it seems more “concerned” about black babies in the womb than black folks outside the womb.

It’s unfortunate that after listening to 4 arguments with which you have disagreements you have chosen to walk away from Catholic radio and pro life marches.
May your break prove a blessing to you and your faith.
Amen.

 

[DebChris]

It is important to do is to separate issues.
We don’t have to agree on every issue to agree on the fundamental issue that life is worth protecting from the moment of conception to natural death.

My state representative, for instance, is a hard line Republican who considers herself pro-life. It is about the only issue with which we agree.

Sometimes when discussing life issues, I have to separate the issue from the presumptions that those on the other side have. Namely, the presumption that if I hold a position on one issue, I necessarily hold a particular position on a different issue. The position I hold on issue A has no bearing on the position I hold on issue B. What does effect my positions is my faith.

Life begins at conception. Life is worth protecting. According to Feminists for Life, what leads many women to abortion is a lack of resources. Therefore, the best way to help women is to help them find the resources they need to help them choose life.

 

[exnihilo]

If you listen to a person, group, or media outlet long enough you’ll eventually find something you don’t agree with. It may be something about which you are particularly passionate. If the people are otherwise good people I’d assume they are well intentioned, even if you disagree.

White folks often ask me about the dismal lack of African American participation in the pro-life movement (Alveda King, Pastor Hoy et al not withstanding) and I explain that the movement seems more “concerned” with black people in the womb, but not when they are attacked by police or killed in a church in the name of the Confederate Flag.

I honestly don’t know why you’d think pro life people don’t care when Black people are killed by police or in a church. I think police brutality is a serious issue. At the same time I don’t think it is necessarily racist. People of all races face police brutality and are killed by police.

As for symbols who gets to define them? Who gets to decide what is representive? I feel extremely confident people who fly a Confederate flag by and large don’t kill Black people. It is true that some people who do use them as symbols of intimidation. It is true some do harm or kill Black people. This is of course terrible. But when the KKK was at its peak in the US they had a march on Washington, DC. The flag they carried was the US flag. You can find pictures of it. They still march with that flag, even if they carry Confederate flags. You can find pictures of the US flag from Charlottesville. Does that mean the US flag is a symbol of hate?

 

[Tim_D]

Nazi flags are not flown in public because of the hatred it signifies for the Jewish people. Why can’t the same courtesy of not displaying the confederate flag/monuments be extended to black people?

This is a completely false equivalency. The Nazi party was one based on a perceived Darwinian system of social and inherent racial superiority. The Confederate states were a collection of people united by a common culture and lifestyle. There were many who maintained that Lincoln’s invasion of the south was unconstitutional, along with his order to blockade southern ports. The southern perspective saw a hostile government using force of arms to destroy their way of life. Naturally, people would respond to resist that.

There is a trend current in the country today to judge people of the past with a modern 21st century mentality. Not only is it not right to do so, it is unfair to those of the past. While an upright man like Robert E. Lee is being condemned today through ignorance, people like Margaret Sander, Che Guevara, and even people like Fidel Castro and Vladimir Lenin himself are heralded, at least in hushed tones, by many on the left. An argument for both sides of the Confederate flag can be made but not the Nazi flag. It is not fair to try and compare the two.

 

[Tim_D]

But when the KKK was at its peak in the US they had a march on Washington, DC. The flag they carried was the US flag. You can find pictures of it. They still march with that flag, even if they carry Confederate flags. You can find pictures of the US flag from Charlottesville. Does that mean the US flag is a symbol of hate?

This is an excellent point. The klan also carried the Christian cross. Does that now make the cross a symbol of hate that should be eradicated?

 

[EmeraldOak]

OP, in the past over other issues I have been disillusioned by things Catholics have said and done. But we can’t allow it to deter us from doing God’s work. Men will offend us and hurt us but it is ultimately the devil that is behind division, he is our real enemy. It is the forces of evil that want us to be wounded and feel victimized. You are a beloved child of God, all you can do is continue to know God, love Him, and serve Him. God will sort out the rest.

 

[kainosktisis]

OP, in the past over other issues I have been disillusioned by things Catholics have said and done. But we can’t allow it to deter us from doing God’s work. Men will offend us and hurt us but it is ultimately the devil that is behind division, he is our real enemy. It is the forces of evil that want us to be wounded and feel victimized. You are a beloved child of God, all you can do is continue to know God, love Him, and serve Him. God will sort out the rest.

Thank you for that. I am of mixed descent (& you can imagine how excited I was to learn of all of the cocktail mix my family has after family members had their DNA tests done! There was stuff in the mix I never had any IDEA we had!). Once in a while, someone will act uncharitably towards me because of my physical appearance. I’ve dealt with that before at home - & abroad. It hurts, but I move on. People have a right to their opinions, I suppose, but yeah…Such is life. I do appreciate the words putting it all right on track though.

I have mixed views myself about the Confederate Flag. I see it as a symbol that has predominantly been used for hate, but I have since learned that it does not always present as such. Like the swastika being formally used as a symbol of peace vs the genocidal use of it in Germany, symbols can mean different things to people.

I served in the military over in Germany years ago. The people there removed many of the symbols of the Reich, but occasionally they miss one…or draw one if so inclined…Ultimately symbols will mean whatever some will want them to mean. I’ve seen some famous musicians or artists wearing crosses like jewelry pieces with no regard to what that symbol means - living life contrary to the calling of that cross - & the One Who died on it & rose from the dead for us…But that will never make me stop loving Him or His cross - nor His Church…

I love my country, but it pains me to see how it is becoming now…In my home state, I see many people without smiles. Silly as it seems, I feel called to smile & pray, & to try to bring some joy to people amidst these times of joylessness. I still feel joy. I want people to feel that, too.

Thank you for your kind words.

 

[Gertabelle]

I am a black woman who listens to a lot of Catholic Radio. In the past few years, I have been surprised by the vociferous defense of the Confederate Flag by my fellow passionate pro-life Catholics, so much so that it seems that the only folks defending the flag are the Catholics who listen to catholic radio and White Nationalists.

:hug3:

Oh my dear sister, my heart breaks for these injustices!

I stopped listening to Catholic radio for the same reasons – that so many of the show hosts and guests were grasping at a single needle of virtue in a mountainous haystack of vice.

My new car came with a Sirius satellite connection, and we found The Catholic Channel – Love it! The show hosts are devout Catholics. But they somehow seem more real, more in touch with real people and real lives. They also seem more aware that symbols have a societal meaning beyond what each and every individual claims is their personal meaning.

Even my 13-year-old son likes the shows. There’s so much joy and laughter in the shows!

Meanwhile, let’s pray for these people who are the public face of Catholicism.

God bless you!

 

[Tis_Bearself]

It’s unfortunate that after listening to 4 arguments with which you have disagreements you have chosen to walk away from Catholic radio and pro life marches.
May your break prove a blessing to you and your faith.
Amen.

^^This.
The Church is a large, diverse body of people. You are not going to find 100% of them sharing your views or your sensitivities at all times.

I too have mixed views of the Confederate flag. I believe that in the South where it was flying over state houses until recently, or when used by certain proponents of hate, it has a very different meaning than it did to many of us who have seen it for decades as just a piece of history or as a symbol that represented Lynyrd Skynyrd the band, or the “General Lee” car on “Dukes of Hazzard”. I suppose naming the car “General Lee” would be a terrible faux pas nowadays too instead of a humorous plot twist.

There is also a concern about wiping away whole parts of our history instead of learning from them, which is what happens when state legislators insist that a certain flag be removed from a large display of historic flags.

Why not ask people who are “defending the Confederate flag” what they have done lately to help people of color? If someone is helping by donating money or time to a cause etc. then does it really matter what they think of a piece of cloth?

 

[Gertabelle]

There is also a concern about wiping away whole parts of our history instead of learning from them, which is what happens when state legislators insist that a certain flag be removed from a large display of historic flags.

There is a rather huge chasm of difference between choosing not to give a place of honor to an historic flag and wiping away whole parts of history. Keep the confederate flag in a museum, but don’t fly it over public buildings.

The former keeps history alive. The latter is giving the flag a place of honor and presumed consent to general societal meaning of the flag.

Why not ask people who are “defending the Confederate flag” what they have done lately to help people of color? If someone is helping by donating money or time to a cause etc. then does it really matter what they think of a piece of cloth?

I think that largely depends on when, where, and how they are “defending the Confederate flag.”

Are they just talking among friends in their living room?

Or are they a radio show host on a nationally syndicated Catholic radio network?

Are they defending this flag through private words?

Or are they defending the flag by flying it in public places?

And saying that what matters is all a matter of personal opinion is really off the mark. The Confederate flag has a very clear and historic association with the Civil War.

And whatever else the Civil War may have been about, it was also absolutely about the right to own human beings as personal property, and to view (and treat) those human beings as anything but human.

And whatever else that flag may mean to individuals today, society’s main understanding of that flag is in fact its association with the Civil War south.

A private citizen may fly the Confederate flag, and they are protected by their First Amendment rights in doing so. But a public (government) building is not the same as a private citizen.

Well, that’s just my two cents on the issue… or maybe a dime…

 

[exnihilo]

And whatever else the Civil War may have been about, it was also absolutely about the right to own human beings as personal property, and to view (and treat) those human beings as anything but human.

And whatever else that flag may mean to individuals today, society’s main understanding of that flag is in fact its association with the Civil War south.

I really don’t see how you think the war could be about slavery. Slavery was mixed up in the matter. But the Union had slaves states. The Union Congress passed an amendment to forever protect slavery. Lincoln said he was fighting the war to collect taxes and specifically not to end slavery. The right to own slaves wasn’t at issue between the warring factions. Even the Emancipation Proclomation was a war measure hoping to instigate a slave revolt.

The flag is definitely associated with the South and the South from that time period. But it is also associated with freedom, however odd that may seem to some. That is why it flew over the Berlin Wall when it came down.

If anything the flag has been made a scapegoat. It lets the country pretend like racism was only a southern issue then and now.

 

[Brendan]

Jeanne,

I am Irish. If I had it in my heart, I could choose to view the Britsh Union Jack with hatred and contempt.

It was the flag under which many severe repressions, even attempts at genocide occurred.

I experienced myself in Belfast when I was younger. A group of other youths saw me walking up the block from my grandmother’s house. That block was Catholic. The other boys were not. I was attacked, it was my American accent that stopped them for a bit, and allowed me to escape.

Unfortunately, those same boys, now men, have a good chance of marching under the Union Jack every July 12 in fine bowlers and orange sashes.

But why, should I, as a Catholic, choose to have hatred and contempt for a piece of cloth. It, nor any other human sigh, is the sign under which Christ chose to conquer Death and Redeem us all. That is the Cross alone.

I also have friend in Belfast who are working staunchly to end abortion at the Marie Stopes clinic there. They most like fly the Union Jack, and probably very proudly.

Should I hold that against them? So I point out that it’s history is that of a period of very brutal colonialism towards my ancestors? Or should I simply applaud their work, and not care about purely secular symbols? to care only about the Cross.

As a Catholic, I choose to applaud their work, to freely choose to work among my pro-life friends in Christ and to simply just not care about their flag. To simply just not give it a thought.

 

[Tis_Bearself]

There is a rather huge chasm of difference between choosing not to give a place of honor to an historic flag and wiping away whole parts of history. Keep the confederate flag in a museum, but don’t fly it over public buildings.

The former keeps history alive. The latter is giving the flag a place of honor and presumed consent to general societal meaning of the flag.

I completely agree with you. I think the vast majority of us, whether or not we lived in the South, can get behind the idea of not flying an unofficial flag over public buildings, especially one that represents the losing side of a bloody civil war.

At the same time, we did have in one of the northern states where I work the situation of a state legislator insisting that the Confederate flag be removed from the historic Flag Day display in a state government building, that had at least a dozen or more historic US flags in it, of which the Confederate flag was just one flag among others and did not have any sort of pride of place or special significance other than “here’s another flag that was part of US history”. I found this alarming, especially since like I said this state is a Northern state and did not have any particular attachment to the “rebel flag”, nor did they fly it over the state house at any time, etc.

I think that largely depends on when, where, and how they are “defending the Confederate flag.”

Are they just talking among friends in their living room?

Or are they a radio show host on a nationally syndicated Catholic radio network?

Are they defending this flag through private words?

Or are they defending the flag by flying it in public places?

And saying that what matters is all a matter of personal opinion is really off the mark. The Confederate flag has a very clear and historic association with the Civil War.

My question would be, HOW are they defending it?

Saying it’s OK to fly over the state house? Not good.

Expressing a concern about its removal from a historic display as I described? Legitimate concern.

Expressing a concern about US free speech being suppressed in the same way as the free speech of certain European countries has been suppressed? To me, also a legitimate concern, although most people who are not heavily involved with First Amendment law do not understand why courts, lawyers, First Amendment advocates think this is important, and also there are so many idiots in the media and on the Internet yammering wrongly about the First Amendment that if the speaker is not from the ACLU or a major law school or law firm, they should probably just be quiet.

And whatever else that flag may mean to individuals today, society’s main understanding of that flag is in fact its association with the Civil War south.

Yes, fine, but does this mean that we also need to start banning everything associated with the Civil War South? I can see not spending public money on a statue of General Lee when it comes from taxpayers who maybe don’t want a constant reminder of that era and would rather see it spent on things that benefit the people now living in the town. I can see not flying the flag of the Civil War loser over the State House. But taken to extremes, we might have to ban reenactments, put content warnings all over “Gettyburg” film or “The Civil War” documentary, etc. because they have stuff about the Civil War South in them.

And with respect to your distinction between private citizens and public government buildings, the people who are vehemently opposed to the flag don’t see any difference between the two. If you fly a Confederate flag nowadays, or display a Confederate Flag patch, or have a Confederate Flag cake for your Gone with the Wind party, it doesn’t matter why you’re flying it. You’re Dylann Roof in their eyes. Sure, the government won’t throw you in prison, but you may well face repercussions from your neighbors, especially in this day and age when everybody thinks it’s OK to “punch the nazi” or “punch the Trump supporter” or “punch the (purported) racist” etc.

Removing the flag from flying over the State Houses was fine, great, probably should have been done ages ago. But it got hysterical from there. That’s my take. Feel free to call me a racist, I already have been called that many times at this point for not jumping on the “evil bad flag” bandwagon.

 

[Monte_RCMS]

Look up Carol M. Swain.

She is a civil rights lawyer … and she is black.

Has written a bunch of books AND appears on talk radio. [Heard her twice this week.]

Check out her books.

bethepeopletv.com

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carol_M._Swain