Catholic doctrine

[Willibuster]

Hi, I had 3 doctrinal questions:

1. Does the Catholic church teach that Muslims go to heaven? I thought JPaul 2 said that they did, and I heard that he also preached universalism.
2. Did the Catholic church canonize Buddha as a saint?
3. Does the Catholic church believe that church councils are equal in authority to Scripture, and does it teach that papal teachings are also equal to Scripture?

Let me know,

Willibuster

 

[Corki]

1. The Church teaches that the ordinary way to heaven, as stated in Scripture, is through belief in Jesus but that it is not impossible that some Muslims go to heaven since everything is possible with God.
2. No.
3. The Church does not put a quantitative amount on authority. Both Scipture and Tradition (not traditions) are vital for understanding what it means to be a Christian. One cannot fully understand one without the other. The councils were primarily called to deal with one heresy or another and their pronouncements are part of the teaching Tradition of the Church which is always implemented in light of Scripture.

 

[Della]

Hi, I had 3 doctrinal questions:

1. Does the Catholic church teach that Muslims go to heaven? I thought JPaul 2 said that they did, and I heard that he also preached universalism.

No, not as you state it. Here is what the Church teaches about non-Christians attaining salvation:

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:
Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336
847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:
Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337
848 "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."338

1. Did the Catholic church canonize Buddha as a saint?

No. The Church does not add to its canon of saints those who are not of the Catholic faith.

1. Does the Catholic church believe that church councils are equal in authority to Scripture, and does it teach that papal teachings are also equal to Scripture?

Let me know,

Willibuster

The Scriptures nor councils are “authorities.” Authority lies in persons not in documents. Jesus gave to his Church the authority to take his Gospel to the ends of the earth and to decide matters of faith and morals for his followers. The NT is the that message written by various men for various reasons. They also preached and taught orally, and the Church still does. Holy Scripture therefore came out of Sacred Tradition (the teaching of the Apostles) and is the witness to the Church and what it teaches.

 

[Hastrman]

Hi, I had 3 doctrinal questions:

1. Does the Catholic church teach that Muslims go to heaven? I thought JPaul 2 said that they did, and I heard that he also preached universalism.
2. Did the Catholic church canonize Buddha as a saint?
3. Does the Catholic church believe that church councils are equal in authority to Scripture, and does it teach that papal teachings are also equal to Scripture?

Let me know,

Willibuster

Jeepers, who’ve you been talking to?!

1. Yes, Muslims can go to Heaven; this has never not been the teaching of the Church. They have a lot less chance, though, because they don’t have the “safety nets” Christians have (confession, for instance). Those Muslims who are saved are still saved through Christ, although they wouldn’t understand why (although I suspect He would tell them).

John Paul II would laugh if told he preached universalism. Many Calvinists now do, though–they deny free will.

1. We don’t, and can’t, canonize anyone not a Catholic or a pre-Jesus Jew (Moses, Abraham) as saints. Buddha was not Jewish; he was an Indian prince who lived a little before Socrates (5th century BC). We acknowledge that there is some truth to Buddhism–as, for instance, that the Hindu gods cannot save anyone, and that undue attachment to this world is a bad thing and leads to suffering–but we acknowledge the true parts of all false religions. True statements are still true, even if they appear in the midst of a number of false statements.
2. Ecumenical councils (a type of council) are equal to Scripture. The Pope’s teachings are only equal to Scripture when preaching in his capacity as Pope (sort of like being on duty, hence the phrase “ex cathedra” or “from the Chair”, chair in the sense of his office) and only on faith or morals.
   There is, however, only one interpretation of Scripture that has any weight at all, and that is the official interpretation of the Church.

 

[Benedictus]

The church has infallibly defined as dogma that all non-Catholics and all un-Baptized persons go directly to hell.

Fourth Lateran Council:

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.

Council of Florence:

The souls of those dying in actual mortal sin or in original sin alone go down at once into Hell, to be punished, however, with widely different penalties.

 

[quasimodo]

The church has infallibly defined as dogma that all non-Catholics and all un-Baptized persons go directly to hell.

Fourth Lateran Council:

Council of Florence:

The quotes you use do not support your claim. It is my understanding that while your position is out side the official understanding of the doctrine, it is to be “tolerated.”

 

[Benedictus]

The quotes you use do not support your claim. It is my understanding that while your position is out side the official understanding of the doctrine, it is to be “tolerated.”

The quotes are perfectly clear. It is not my position. It is, or was, the Church’s position.

 

[Atreyu]

God save us from Feeneyists…

Willibuster, Della has it right in her post above. When trying to understand Catholic teaching, the Catechism of the Catholic Church is one of the best tools you could use.

 

[Willibuster]

Okay thanks for your responses,

so the Vatican officially does teach as “law” that Muslims can go to heaven and that ecumenical councils are treated as inspired by God, like the way Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox churches view the Scriptures. Does the church believe that Jews (who do not believe in Christ), Hindus or Buddhists can go to heaven?

Willibuster

 

[Atreyu]

Okay thanks for your responses,

so the Vatican officially does teach as “law” that Muslims can go to heaven and that ecumenical councils are treated as inspired by God, like the way Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox churches view the Scriptures. Does the church believe that Jews (who do not believe in Christ), Hindus or Buddhists can go to heaven?

Willibuster

Stealing from another poster here at CAF (Church Miliant):
Hell is the result of the final and deliberate choice to reject the love of God in the sacrifice of Our Lord Jesus Christ
Personally, I would never judge the hearts and minds of anyone else on Earth, and so I will never say anything along the lines of “so-and-so is damned to hell because of not-being-Catholic/being-in-mortal-sin/supporting-the-Carlton-Blues/insert-other-sin-here”.

God will save whomever He chooses to save. But we all have the choice to accept the grace of God (and so be saved) or reject it (and so be damned).

Let’s say a Christian zealot walks up to a Buddhist monk and says “you’re going to hell because you don’t believe in the sacrifice of Christ!” Would it be unreasonable for the monk to reject such a pejorative statement? Of course not. Is he therefore doomed to hell for rejecting Christ? I don’t think so. Would God damn anyone on Earth who hasn’t had the opportunity to learn about Christ, through ignorance? To me, this seems unjust. Of course, it is up to God and I will find out in the next life, but I don’t want anyone to have to go to hell and so I hope and pray for the salvation of all.

As for inspiration of the Ecumenical Councils, I would say that Catholics believe the Holy Spirit protects the Church from teaching error in matters of faith and morals. As the Ecumenical Councils produce solemn declarations on the faith, these solemn declarations are protected from error by God in the same way that the bishops of the Catholic Church who decided on the canon of the Bible were protected from error by the Holy Spirit.

 

[Church_Militant]

Okay thanks for your responses,

so the Vatican officially does teach as “law” that Muslims can go to heaven and that ecumenical councils are treated as inspired by God, like the way Protestants, Catholics and Orthodox churches view the Scriptures. Does the church believe that Jews (who do not believe in Christ), Hindus or Buddhists can go to heaven?

Willibuster

sounds like you had your mind made up before your fingers ever hit a key…

 

[Willibuster]

Church Militant,

you are partially correct here…I am trying to reestablish my faith in Christ (Protestant wing) but was curious as to what the Catholic church teaches on particular doctrines.

I doubt I will convert to Catholicism, but will limit my time in asking questions re: Catholic doctrine to info only and for a limited amount of time on this site, so as to not be a time leech on any members here. Don’t intend to debate the subject right now on this bulletin board, not for now anyway…

thanks for your time and info,

Willibuster

 

[Robert902]

I just don’t understand why so many individuals want to add to God’s word. If you truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and rose from the dead, guess what…you’re going to heaven. Gospel means good news…isn’t that good news?
Salvation is not acquired by works. The cults (Mormons, Jahova Witnesses etc) believe that they must work their way to heaven. But “salvation is a gift from God, not of works, lest any man boast”.
The thief on the cross believed, and was saved. No works, and he wasn’t even baptised!
So…can a Muslim go to heaven? If he is born again, he is a new creation, and on his way to heaven.

 

[newbie1234]

I just don’t understand why so many individuals want to add to God’s word. If you truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and rose from the dead, guess what…you’re going to heaven. Gospel means good news…isn’t that good news?
Salvation is not acquired by works. The cults (Mormons, Jahova Witnesses etc) believe that they must work their way to heaven. But “salvation is a gift from God, not of works, lest any man boast”.
The thief on the cross believed, and was saved. No works, and he wasn’t even baptised!
So…can a Muslim go to heaven? If he is born again, he is a new creation, and on his way to heaven.

Amen!
I love to hear truth!
Keep on preaching!
Give 'em heaven, brother!

 

[JonathanKinsman]

I just don’t understand why so many individuals want to add to God’s word. If you truly believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins, and rose from the dead, guess what…you’re going to heaven. Gospel means good news…isn’t that good news?

Salvation is not acquired by works. The cults (Mormons, Jahova Witnesses etc) believe that they must work their way to heaven. But “salvation is a gift from God, not of works, lest any man boast”.
The thief on the cross believed, and was saved. No works, and he wasn’t even baptised!
So…can a Muslim go to heaven? If he is born again, he is a new creation, and on his way to heaven.

Robert,

These assertions have been made by others on these threads.

A good approach to understanding how wrong you are concerning Catholic teaching is to read some Catholic apologetic documents.

All are based on the Word of God. The Bible that the Catholic Church discerned (with the Holy Spirit) and was declared canonical by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD. Many other Jewish and spurious “gospels” and “letters” written many, many years after Jesus’ Apostles’ lives were tossed.

Today, you can find those “books” in Barnes and Noble or Borders’ as “Lost Books of the Bible” and “Secret Gospels that the Catholic Church Suppressed.”

If you think we Catholics “added” to God’s word, you are congenitally mistaken and nothing here will lead you aright.

So, don’t waste your time if you are truly looking for clarification and answers.

Joe Pastor down the road at The Rock Redeemer church who doesn’t speak or read a lick of Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, but tells his congregation what those unChristian Catholics believe is calling you.

 

[Trad_Catholic_1]

The quotes you use do not support your claim. It is my understanding that while your position is out side the official understanding of the doctrine, it is to be “tolerated.”

Benedictus is not incorrect.

It has always been a question of interpreting the implications of original sin.

Anyway, this is what is stated in the CCC:

As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus’ tenderness toward children which caused him to say: ‘Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,’ allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. (CCC, 1261)

 

[Atreyu]

Benedictus is not incorrect.

Benedictus is incorrect. Look at what he said:

Benedictus:

The church has infallibly defined as dogma that all non-Catholics and all un-Baptized persons go directly to hell.

The two quotes that Benedictus supplied do not support his conclusion, and these are explained in the section of the Catechism quoted earlier in this thread. The Church has definitely not defined as dogma that all non-Catholics and all unbaptised persons go directly to hell. If the Church ever did define this as dogma, then she would be negating the very word of God in that the thief on the cross was definitely not baptised.

Additionally, Benedictus’s statement that the Church has changed her teaching - which I took to mean a change in kind rather than a development - has not happened and cannot happen in the Catholic Church.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

The church has infallibly defined as dogma that all non-Catholics and all un-Baptized persons go directly to hell.

Fourth Lateran Council:

There is but one universal Church of the faithful, outside which no one at all is saved.

Yes, these are the verbatim decrees of these Councils, repeated from the Early Church Fathers. But, how is this to be understood. Holy Mother Church has told us what she means when she says this:

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. the Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. the Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.(St. Augustine, Serm. 96, 7, 9: PL 38, 588; St. Ambrose, De virg. 18, 118: PL 16, 297B; cf. already ⇒ 1 Pet 3:20-21.)

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers (Cf. Cyprian, Ep. 73.21: PL 3, 1169; De unit.: PL 4, 509-536.) Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.(LG 14; cf. ⇒ Mk 16:16; ⇒ Jn 3:5[ETML:C/].)

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.(LG 16; cf. DS 3866-3872.)

848 “Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men.”(AG 7; cf. ⇒ Heb 11:6; ⇒ 1 Cor 9:16.)

There is no flip-flopping, there is no change in Catholic belief. Holy Mother Church has told us, and clarified for us what has been meant by “Outside the Church there is no salvation”. This is the proper interpretation given by the Magesterium.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

1. Does the Catholic church believe that church councils are equal in authority to Scripture, and does it teach that papal teachings are also equal to Scripture?

Ecumenical Councils are part of the Magesterium of the Church, and are of equal standing with Sacred Tradition and Sacred Scripture. Local councils generally don’t have authority beyond their local Church.

 

[Robert902]

Robert,

These assertions have been made by others on these threads.

A good approach to understanding how wrong you are concerning Catholic teaching is to read some Catholic apologetic documents.

All are based on the Word of God. The Bible that the Catholic Church discerned (with the Holy Spirit) and was declared canonical by Pope Damasus I in 382 AD. Many other Jewish and spurious “gospels” and “letters” written many, many years after Jesus’ Apostles’ lives were tossed.

Today, you can find those “books” in Barnes and Noble or Borders’ as “Lost Books of the Bible” and “Secret Gospels that the Catholic Church Suppressed.”

If you think we Catholics “added” to God’s word, you are congenitally mistaken and nothing here will lead you aright.

So, don’t waste your time if you are truly looking for clarification and answers.

Joe Pastor down the road at The Rock Redeemer church who doesn’t speak or read a lick of Latin, Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek, but tells his congregation what those unChristian Catholics believe is calling you.