Catholic doctrine

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Joanathan,

Do your homework independant of Catholic literature. The Bible came first. Catholicism began around 300 or 400 AD.
The Book of Revelation (the last chapter) gives a serious warning to those who add to or take away from the Bible. “If anyone preaces a new Gospel, let him be accursed”. It is a closed Book. There is no new Gospel, and that includes the ones preached by Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Muhammed or anyone else.

The Bible encourages us to “test all things”. If we test all things using Catholic literature we are only kidding ourselves and guilty of circular reasoning.
What are we to have faith in? The Bible, or Catholic doctrine?
According to the Bible any “new revelation” or doctrine is to be accursed.
I’m not making this stuff up. It’s all right there for you to read for yourself in the King James Bible.
Our God is a God of order. “I am the same today, tomorrow and for eternity”.
"There is one mediator between God and man, and that is the Christ Jesus. Not Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Confuscious, Buddah or anyone besides Jesus Christ. That’s what the Bible teaches. If there is conflict, it is man made.
 
The Bible came first. Catholicism began around 300 or 400 AD.
THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE. The Bible did NOT come first. The Catholic Church came first and actually wrote and put together the Bible. Read history and see for yourself. The Bible was not completely put together until hundereds of years after the death of our Lord.
The Book of Revelation (the last chapter) gives a serious warning to those who add to or take away from the Bible.
Please provide chapter and verse that states such. I know there is a verse that states we are not to add or take away from the prophecies in the book of revelation, but nothing at all to say “add or take away from Scripture” (to suggest “Sola Scriptura” as you falsely claim.

Also the Catholic Church began on the day of Pentecost. The “reformed” ones, that believe the Bible Alone theory, and have become a mass of anarchy came along in the 16’th century, with your reasoning, rejecting the Church and having nowhere else to turn.

Ken
 
Joanathan,

Do your homework independant of Catholic literature.
Which books would you have us read?
The Bible came first. Catholicism began around 300 or 400 AD.
By Constantine perhaps? Even though Constantine wasn’t a bishop, wasn’t a priest and wasn’t even baptised until on his death bed? How do you explain the following section of the epistle of Ignatius of Antioch to the Smyrneans:
CHAPTER VIII.–LET NOTHING BE DONE WITHOUT THE BISHOP.

See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is[administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude[of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid.
The emphasis is mine. This was written around the year 110 AD, and Ignatius was a disciple of the apostle John.
The Book of Revelation (the last chapter) gives a serious warning to those who add to or take away from the Bible.
Why would this apply to the whole of the Bible and not simply to the book of Revelation? Although I agree that none of the God-inspired Biblical books should be removed from the canon of the Bible. Why then, would you remove seven of the Old Testament books (the deuterocanonicals)? These books were considered to be canonical since the early fourth century - when the canon of the Bible was decided upon by Catholic bishops.
“If anyone preaces a new Gospel, let him be accursed”. It is a closed Book. There is no new Gospel, and that includes the ones preached by Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Muhammed or anyone else.
As well as the ones preached by Martin Luther and John Calvin.
The Bible encourages us to “test all things”. If we test all things using Catholic literature we are only kidding ourselves and guilty of circular reasoning.
Again, what would you have us read?
What are we to have faith in? The Bible, or Catholic doctrine?
We are to have faith in GOD. We are also to obey His commands, including the command to listen to those people He sent (“He who hears you hears me. He who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me, rejects the One who sent me”). The people He sent are the apostles and their successors, such as Paul, Barnabas and Ignatius of Antioch. We should also believe in the promises that Jesus made to us - including the promise that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church - the Church cannot teach error.
According to the Bible any “new revelation” or doctrine is to be accursed.
Indeed.
I’m not making this stuff up. It’s all right there for you to read for yourself in the King James Bible.
What is so special about the King James Bible? What happens if I don’t speak English?
Our God is a God of order. “I am the same today, tomorrow and for eternity”.
I agree.
"There is one mediator between God and man, and that is the Christ Jesus. Not Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy, Confuscious, Buddah or anyone besides Jesus Christ. That’s what the Bible teaches. If there is conflict, it is man made.
I agree. Does this mean you can ask other people to pray to God for you?
 
Willibuster, something got overlooked in the posts above regarding this question:
…
3) Does the Catholic church believe that church councils are equal in authority to Scripture, and does it teach that papal teachings are also equal to Scripture?
Not “equal,” no, and here’s why.

Scripture (the Bible) and Apostolic Tradition (the preaching of the Apostles) constitute God’s entire revelation to humanity. These alone constitute the actual word of God. Church councils and ex cathedra papal teachings aren’t revelations from God. They are human works which merely are kept free from error by the Holy Spirit. In other words, the doctrine of infallibility holds only that the Holy Spirit prevents erroneous doctrine from being taught ----- that’s not the same as God actually revealing information.

Catholics believe the Holy Spirit keeps the Church from error in defining matters of faith and morals. We don’t believe that God is whispering in the pope’s ear telling him what to say, nor dictating words to church councils. On the contrary, God’s general revelation to humanity ended with the death of the last Apostle. We just believe that the Holy Spirit prevents error from being taught as doctrine by the Church.

Does that distinction make sense?
 
Good post Gamera, I just wanted to comment on one thing:
On the contrary, God’s general revelation to humanity ended with the death of the last Apostle. We just believe that the Holy Spirit prevents error from being taught as doctrine by the Church.
I wonder if it would be more accurate to say that God’s general revelation to humanity ended with the Ascension of Jesus? If this is true, then the Apostles are in the same boat as the rest of the Church since. Was God “whispering in the ears” of the Apostles when on their public ministry? I don’t think so. I think they preached in accordance with the Revelation that Jesus revealed to them.

I don’t think I’m making much sense here, sorry…
 
THIS IS COMPLETELY FALSE. The Bible did NOT come first. The Catholic Church came first and actually wrote and put together the Bible. Read history and see for yourself. The Bible was not completely put together until hundereds of years after the death of our Lord.

Please provide chapter and verse that states such. I know there is a verse that states we are not to add or take away from the prophecies in the book of revelation, but nothing at all to say “add or take away from Scripture” (to suggest “Sola Scriptura” as you falsely claim.

Also the Catholic Church began on the day of Pentecost. The “reformed” ones, that believe the Bible Alone theory, and have become a mass of anarchy came along in the 16’th century, with your reasoning, rejecting the Church and having nowhere else to turn.

Ken
Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” NIV

The beginning of God’s church is recorded in The Book of Acts. That account is the true beginning of God’s church. The head Is Jesus Christ, and God’s elect comprise the body.

God Bless,
Robert
 
Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” NIV
“This book” refers only to the book of Revelation. The bible won’t exist for about 300 more years.
 
“This book” refers only to the book of Revelation. The bible won’t exist for about 300 more years.
I just wanted to add that when Revelations was written there was no biblical cannon so it was independent of any of the other NT books. so those verses couldnt of been talking about any other books or the bible as a whole because the author had no idea of the bible as we know it.
 
I asked our Curate directly recently if it is Church doctrine that non-Catholics go to hell and he emphatically responded “NO”
I find it very worrying that people say this - the Catachism clearly states this is not the case also
 
The thing about non-Catholics automatically going to Hell is a heresy. The form of it you usually get in the US is called Feeneyism, after a priest named Feeney who got excommunicated over it.

Sad story. He was a very able guy who got asked to work at some kind of Newman Center at an Ivy League school. He worked hard, got along with the students, and got a lot of them to re-commit to Catholicism or convert to it. But he also started to take on some awfully odd ideas, and to emphasize this “non-Catholics are never saved” interpretation of “no salvation except through the Church and Jesus”. After a while, his superiors went to transfer him, and he refused to go. The church higher-ups asked him to stop teaching his weird version of Catholicism, and he wouldn’t do that, either. And that’s how he got excommunicated.

(All this happened a good few years before Vatican II inadvertently came along as an excuse, but you can see how people were already doing crazy things and justifying themselves for it. The rot just didn’t become evident to most American Catholics until the sixties hit, and eliminated the peer pressure against acting like a selfish idiot.)

Feeney ended up in some kind of commune in the wilds of Massachusetts, raising kids communally and weird stuff like that, but going to church in an ultra-traditional way. (Except for that little heresy and disobedience thing.) Apparently he did reconcile with the Church in the end, but still, pretty scary and sad. It just goes to show that it never pays to get too stuck on the importance of your job, your personal views, and yourself.
 
“This book” refers only to the book of Revelation. The bible won’t exist for about 300 more years.
The Book of Genesis was written by Moses around 1450-1410 BC.
The Book of Revelation was written by The Apostle Paul around the year 95 AD.

God Bless,
Robert
 
I just wanted to add that when Revelations was written there was no biblical cannon so it was independent of any of the other NT books. so those verses couldnt of been talking about any other books or the bible as a whole because the author had no idea of the bible as we know it.
The Apostle Paul said “for I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ.”
“But I make known to you brethren that the Gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.”
2Peter 1:20-21 “Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man; but Holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.”

God Bless,
Robert
 
The Book of Genesis was written by Moses around 1450-1410 BC.
The Book of Revelation was written by The Apostle Paul around the year 95 AD.

God Bless,
Robert
[SIGN]BEEEEEP![/SIGN]Dead wrong!

Revelation chapter 1:
1: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2: who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3: Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
4: John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
5: and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
6: and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7: Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
9: I John, your brother, who share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Who told you St. Paul wrote that?
I’d go back and show 'em the truth if I was you.
(Paul indeed! :rolleyes: )
Pax tecum,
 
[SIGN]BEEEEEP![/SIGN]Dead wrong!

Revelation chapter 1:
1: The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show to his servants what must soon take place; and he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2: who bore witness to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw.
3: Blessed is he who reads aloud the words of the prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written therein; for the time is near.
4: John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
5: and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the first-born of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
6: and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.
7: Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, every one who pierced him; and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8: “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.
9: I John, your brother, who share with you in Jesus the tribulation and the kingdom and the patient endurance, was on the island called Patmos on account of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus.

Who told you St. Paul wrote that?
I’d go back and show 'em the truth if I was you.
(Paul indeed! :rolleyes: )
Pax tecum,
I am profoundly sorry for my mistake. I don’t know why I said The Apostle Paul. It was The Apostle John. Stayed up too late.
 
Revelation 22:18-19 “I warn everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book: if anyone adds anything to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes words away from this book of prophecy, God will take away from him his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book.” NIV

Robert
Cool, I take it you only use Catholic Bibles? Because after interpreting Revelation in such a way you couldn’t possibly use a version in which many books were removed in order to better suit Luther’s own opinions of God.
 
Cool, I take it you only use Catholic Bibles? Because after interpreting Revelation in such a way you couldn’t possibly use a version in which many books were removed in order to better suit Luther’s own opinions of God.
Galatians 1: 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven preach any other gospel to you than that what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.

Galatians 1:11 But I make known to you brethren that the Gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.

Galatians 1:12 For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through the revelation of Jesus Christ

The Holy Bible was written by more than 40 human authors inspired by The Holy Spirit over a period of about 14 to 18 centuries. According to 2 Tim 3:16-17 “All of the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit.” The word “inspired” in Greek is Theopneustos which means God-breathed. The Apostle Peter wrote that Holy men composed the books of the Bible as they were "moved"by the Holy Spirit. Also The Apostle Paul wrote to his student Timothy that all scripture was given by inspiritation of God. The authors of the Bible wrote spontaneously using their own minds and experiences while influenced and directed by God.

As a Christian, I have faith that God is able to get His word to me. And my faith is in The Holy Bible. The foundation of the church was laid through The Apostles and The Prophets. God’s church consists of Jesus Christ as the head, and His elect as the body.

God Bless,
Robert
 
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Robert902:
The Holy Bible was written by more than 40 human authors inspired by The Holy Spirit over a period of about 14 to 18 centuries. According to 2 Tim 3:16-17 “All of the Bible was inspired by the Holy Spirit.” The word “inspired” in Greek is Theopneustos which means God-breathed. The Apostle Peter wrote that Holy men composed the books of the Bible as they were "moved"by the Holy Spirit. Also The Apostle Paul wrote to his student Timothy that all scripture was given by inspiritation of God. The authors of the Bible wrote spontaneously using their own minds and experiences while influenced and directed by God.

As a Christian, I have faith that God is able to get His word to me. And my faith is in The Holy Bible. The foundation of the church was laid through The Apostles and The Prophets. God’s church consists of Jesus Christ as the head, and His elect as the body.

God Bless,
Robert
The foundation of the Church was founded by Jesus Christ, whom he appointed twelve men, the Apostle to build it, and Peter as the Leader of the Apostle.

Peter is the Prime Minister of the Church and Jesus is the head of this Catholic Church.

Mark 3:16; John 1:42 – Jesus renames Simon “Kepha” in Aramaic which literally means “rock.” This was an extraordinary thing for Jesus to do, because “rock” was not even a name in Jesus’ time. Jesus did this, not to give Simon a strange name, but to identify his new status among the apostles. When God changes a person’s name, He changes their status.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are “Kepha” and on this “Kepha” I will build my Church. In Aramaic, “kepha” means a massive stone, and “evna” means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is “petra”, that “Petros” actually means “a small rock”, and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus’ blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used “Kepha,” not “evna.” Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.

Matt. 16:18-19 – to further rebut the Protestant argument that Jesus was speaking about Peter’s confession of faith (not Peter himself) based on the revelation he received, the verses are clear that Jesus, after acknowledging Peter’s receipt of divine revelation, turns the whole discourse to the person of Peter: Blessed are “you” Simon, for flesh and blood has not revealed this to “you,” and I tell “you,” “you” are Peter, and on this rock I will build my Church. I will give “you” the keys to the kingdom, and whatever “you” bind and loose on earth will be bound and loosed in heaven. Jesus’ whole discourse relates to the person of Peter, not his confession of faith.

Matt. 16:13 - also, from a geographical perspective, Jesus renames Simon to rock in Caesarea Philippi near a massive rock formation on which Herod built a temple to Caesar. Jesus chose this setting to further emphasize that Peter was indeed the rock on which the Church would be built.

John 16:13 - Jesus promises that the Spirit will “guide” the Church into all truth. Our knowledge of the truth develops as the Spirit guides the Church, and this happens over time.

1 Cor. 2:13 – Paul explains that what the ministers teach is taught, not by human wisdom, but by the Spirit. The ministers are led to interpret and understand the spiritual truths God gives them over time.

Eph. 4:13,15 – Paul indicates that attaining to the unity of the faith and the knowledge of the Son of God to mature manhood is a process. We are to grow up in every way into Christ. Doctrine (which means “teaching”) develops as we understand God’s Revelation.

Acts 15:27-28 - the apostles know that their teaching is being guided by the Holy Spirit. He protects the Church from deception.

Gal. 2:11-14 - non-Catholics sometimes use this verse to diminish Peter’s evident authority over the Church. This is misguided. In this verse, Paul does not oppose Peter’s teaching, but his failure to live by it. Infallibility (teaching without error) does not mean impeccability (living without sinning). Peter was the one who taught infallibly on the Gentile’s salvation in Acts 10,11. With this rebuke, Paul is really saying “Peter, you are our leader, you teach infallibly, and yet your conduct is inconsistent with these facts. You of all people!” The verse really underscores, and not diminishes, the importance of Peter’s leadership in the Church.

Eph. 3:10 - the wisdom of God is known, even to the intellectually superior angels, through the Church (not the Scriptures). This is an incredible verse, for it tells us that God’s infinite wisdom comes to us through the Church. For that to happen, the Church must be protected from teaching error on faith and morals (or she wouldn’t be endowed with the wisdom of God).
 
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