How does salvation by faith and works contradict the Bible?
But what doctrines do you believe are “explicitly stated” in Scripture, and on what basis do you make such a determination?
You “take… with a grain of salt” even the trinity and two natures of Christ? Are you considering conversion to the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
CCC 95 "It is clear therefore that, in the supremely wise arrangement of God, Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture and the Magisterium of the Church are so connected and associated that one of them cannot stand without the others. Working together, each in its own way, under the action of the one Holy Spirit, they all contribute effectively to the salvation of souls.Thank you
The bible is the final word of God, I believe.
Not a Bishops word.
The Pope can say the opposite of what the bible says, and the bible is still the truth, not the Pope. Therefore, the bible is preeminent.
I’m sorry, but did I miss a memo somewhere? Can you show me a passage of scripture that states what you have expressed there? The reason I ask is because if what you say is true then there should be a specific passage of scripture to support it. That has to be the case because according to you everything that we believe must be in the Bible.
I can assure you that faithful and knowledgeable Catholics will certainly agree with your first and last statements, but even the Bible tells us that your second statement is in error. Please see Revelation 11:3-12.
Here you have also erred in what I have bolded. Can you please point me to any passage of scripture that explicitly states that God is a Trinity? Can you supply me with a passage of scripture that explicitly explains Purgatory? These are just two examples of Biblical doctrines that are not explicitly stated in the Word of God. I urge you to back up and begin to very carefully study your faith and the Bible. I did that side by side and it hurried me home to our most holy faith. (See My Testimony)
That’s not true at all. Errant individuals have led many astray with new modern winds of doctrines of men in the last 500 years. Please see my blog articles Who REALLY Preaches “A Different Gospel”? , “I Find No Sacraments In the Bible” he said. , and Infallibility & How The Apostles Taught the Study of Sacred Tradition.
Mary: “Full of Grace”
If you question this then you apparently have fallen in among some bad teachers such as the Jehovah’s Witnesses or Oneness Pentecostals who have revived the ancient Arian heresy that the church refuted very early on. The Trinity is very much found implicitly in scripture.
Really? And just what have you come to believe in this regard? In fact, you must have missed Mass last Sunday because the epistle reading was Philippians 2:1-11 which reads in part.
Really? You have been sorely misled. How Is A Catholic Saved?
Let me know when any of these three become doctrines of the church, because none of them have, so whoever misled you has you barking up the wrong trees there.
I recommend that you take the persons who fed you all this with much more than just a grain of salt, because they have taught you wrong.
Not by me you won’t, though I can prove that you are being misled, and I’ll use both the Word of God and Catholic teaching all the way back to the early church. Please feel free to Pm me with these things if you don’t want to do this publicly.
Then you need to follow the instructions of St. Paul when he wrote Timothy to “Carefully study to present thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth”
Where exactly does the Bible say that? Specifically, where does it lay claim to being the final and ultimate authority for all that Christians believe and practice? I sincerely would like you to show me these passages because I’ve read the Bible several times over (all 73 books of it), and continue to do so and I have never found any such claim within it.
The Bible is a document. It cannot interpret itself. Why do you think there are so many denominations–all claiming they have the right interpretation of Scripture? Because the Bible is not just any book that anyone can read–it’s God written word. And the significance of that is only one body of men was given the commission to preach and teach God’s word–the Apostles. Jesus entrusted them with his message–with God’s message to men. So, they have the authority to decide what the Bible means. No Church teaching contradicts the Bible. It’s impossible because the Church only teaches God’s word and nothing else, and the final word of God to men was Jesus Christ. The Bible is a part of Sacred Tradition, passed on from prophets and the elders chosen by God until Christ came. Then he gave that commission to his Apostles. Their writings make up the NT. How could they contradict each other when we have the successors of the Apostles with us today, who have the same authority to speak for Christ that was given to the original Twelve? You are placing a book, a partial relating of God’s word, as higher than Christ himself. It was Christ himself who gave the Apostles and their successors the authority to preach and teach in his name. You are confused about this matter and should talk to you priest about it ASAP.
The bible is the final word of God, I believe.
Not a Bishops word.
The Pope can say the opposite of what the bible says, and the bible is still the truth, not the Pope. Therefore, the bible is preeminent.
It was never argued that a bishop’s word is the final word of God. Rather, what was stated is exactly what scripture states: that the Word of God is is Christ, who came down from heaven and became man.
I think what you mean is that the pope can magisterially teach the opposite of what the scripture says. If that is what you mean, the answer is no he can’t.
But how does one KNOW that the Bible is truth? Because the Bible says it is true? Logically speaking, the Bible cannot provide it’s own verification. The Koran says the same thing, and so does the book of Mormon.
I meant differing opinions about salvation, ie: baptism by desire, invincible ignorance, salvation for those outside the Catholic church…etc… Are Orthodox saved? Are only Catholics in communion with Rome saved? Are Baptists saved?..How does salvation by faith and works contradict the Bible?
But what doctrines do you believe are “explicitly stated” in Scripture, and on what basis do you make such a determination?
You “take… with a grain of salt” even the trinity and two natures of Christ? Are you considering conversion to the Jehovah’s Witnesses?
I don’t want to take this thread off-topic, but I’m genuinely puzzled. Perhaps a moderator can split this discussion into a new thread.
I don’t know? Maybe I would want to be one? I don’t know anything about them.Zoiks! Can you say Can of Worms?
Your last statement is the key here. It’s not theology that broke up the Church, but men wanting to grab power.I meant differing opinions about salvation, ie: baptism by desire, invincible ignorance, salvation for those outside the Catholic church…etc… Are Orthodox saved? Are only Catholics in communion with Rome saved? Are Baptists saved?..
I don’t understand the second question.
Haha, that was funny about the Jehovah’s Witnesses.
Yes, I take the trinity and the natures of Christ with a grain of salt. Why? Because the trinity was developed in the 300’s. And the
natures of Christ is one of the issues that split up the early church. It wasn’t necessary to split the church over theological debates.
That just seems so sad looking back on it. So that is why I take it with a grain of salt. If I was a Coptic Christian or a Catholic they might
have a different view on the natures of Christ but it shouldn’t divide us because… JESUS did not say - HEY everybody…let me break it down for you:
this is how my natures work…
What theologians speculate on should not be sufficient enough to DIVIDE the body of Christ.
In my humble opinion. And the trinity, well, that was mostly a political issue. Again, Jesus did not say, Let me break it down for you people: this is how the
Godhead functions:… It is not crucial to our salvation to percieve the godhead in one way or another. So again, it should not DIVIDE the body of Christians.
Politics is what does that. And power hungry people.
You might be right here. I was referring to Revelation 22:18-19
You are correct with this statement. Revelation was not the last book in the Canon of Scripture to be written. Some of the Gospels came afterwards. Likewise, there were books of “scripture” which were rejected which were penned BEFORE Revelation.
I don’t think the RCC teaches it has closed the canon. Sure, it’s declared 73 books to be canonical but I’m pretty sure it never said these are the only inspired books.
That is incorrect. The church teaches that general revelation ended with the death of the last apostle. There is nothing new to add to scripture at this point.
I actually wasn’t referring to the council of carthage. Rather to Pope Damascus’ declaration of the Canon, which was affirmed at the Synod of Hippo, and then again at the Councils of Carthage. Basically by 410 AD the entire western church was using the single canon as taught by Pope Damascus… the same NEW testament Canon that all of Chrisendom uses today, and the same old testament canon that Catholics (and some protestants) still use.
No, Trent was were the Canon was infallibly settled. But it was Carthage, Hippo, and the Pope who promulgated the Canon which was infallibly declared at Trent. It is their new testament canon that protestants STILL use to this very day.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/corona_stellarum/Smilies/emot-can.gif Yep, you sure did.
You say that as if it’s a given, but where’s your scripture that says so?
If this were true then why then did Our Lord Himself repeat the same prayer 3 times in the Garden of Gethsemane? See Matthew 26:36-44. Why do the Psalms repeat parts over and over again? Why do most Christians repeat the Our Father again and again? Obviously that is not what Our Lord meant, especially since none of us are pagans, which He specifically mentions.
Call No Man Father?
You stated that there were no more prophets, yet this passage plainly shows that there are indeed prophets yet to come which refutes your position. There are other scriptures I could cite, but I don’t think that’s needed.
You are dead wrong. Let’s start with one scripture right off. Matthew 28:18-20
This is grossly inaccurate and dead wrong. You cannot objectively read the New Testament and not see the authority of the Church to excommunicate those who depart from the truth and teach errors for whatever reason. look at St. Paul’s letters to the Corinthians Church for example. (BTW, excommunication has been around all along. See Acts 5:1-11 for a very serious example. Talk about "do or die issues?)
No one had this problem much until the 16th century when modern new winds of doctrines of men blew through Christianity and have persisted to this day…descending into the chaos that you seem to be speaking of. Every error and heresy in the 2,000 years of Christian history has been answered by the Catholic Church. If you knew any such history you’d have known that and not been so easily misled by whoever you’re listening to. (Who is it BTW? You have never said, and you should have.)
Show me where you have any scriptures to base this on. I don’t think you can. Moreover, what exactly do you think the natures of Christ is? So far, all you’ve done is ineffectively try to run the Catholic Church down with a lot of polemics and yet no scriptures or proof. If this is what you have based your thinking on then then it’s ill founded indeed. How old are you, anyway?
I can and I will, especially since you have yet to make any support for your remarks in anything other than a polemic denial. If you do not know the Word of God and the teachings of the Catholic Church any better than this, then it’s little wonder that you are so messed up at this point and it’s a good thing that you joined us here at CAF where these false beliefs can be challenged and refuted with truth from both scripture and authentic sacred Tradition and Church teaching, which will prove to be all tied in together.
What’s your point here? The fact is that St. Paul plainly tells us that Our Lord had 2 distinct natures at the same time. One Divine and one human. That’s exactly what incarnation means.
So you seem to feel that the Church should not stand up for and defend objective truth as revealed. Is that so? If not the Catholic Church, who then? Who else was there when Arius preached his heresy? Who else was there to respond when the Donatist and Gnostics preached theirs? Certainly not the modern error ridden faith communities of the last 500 years who have no one in authority, espouse the scriptures as it’s own self interpreting authority,(An authority that the scriptures nowhere claim for itself), and cannot and have not agreed even with each other as to doctrinal truth.