Catholic Faith vs. Protection of Family / Right of Return

[Daniel49]

Assume that you are born to a Jewish family (as am I) and converted to Roman Catholicism (as did I). Assume that you had an Orthodox and documented Bris as a child. That gives you the right of return to Israel as a place of save harbor. You ultimately end up married to a Catholic woman and have children who you raised as Catholics.

Times get real tough politically in your country of residence and the authorities decide to round up and kill all of the Jews. Now, your children (using the Nazi definition of Jewishness) would be defined as Jews by the authorities as would you, despite your conversion to Catholicism. In other words, your children would be considered to be Jewish by the authorities because of their paternal bloodline and not their faith.

Do you take advantage of the right of return to Israel? Do you tell the truth about your religious status to the Israeli immigration folks? Keep in mind that the question will arise with the Israeli immigration department as to whether or not you have converted to another religion upon interrogation when seeking refuge for yourself and your kids. You will be turned away if you had become a Jewish apostate.

I suppose the right answer from a Catholic perspective for yourself would be to tell the truth and thus martyr oneself. (The right of return would not be extended to your or your family given the disclosure of your conversion.)

But, is it moral to martyr your innocent children by your actions as well, or do you lie about your conversion (saying that you and your children are Jewish) in order to protect their lives. In other words, is it more important to save the lives of your family or to be true to your Catholic faith?

Daniel49

Note: This thread is derived from an answer that I provided to a query on another thread titled “Is It Always a Sin to Tell a Lie?”

 

[Marsha_Adams]

You could always try fleeing to the Vatican. During WWII the Vatican hid thousands of Jews and Allied POWs.

 

[Daniel49]

Hi Marsha,

I know that the Vatican facilitated a large number of POWs and Jews during WW2, I can still imagine that the smallest country in the world (only 0.17 square miles - - - about a city block) could quickly become over-crowded in a crisis situation leaving many people looking for other alternatives.

But the crux of the question is more of a theological one anyway. What should one do if the only door open to them is the one described?

Daniel49

Note: If you have never been there, it is a must see. It will take you about two to three days to see most everything there. We have been there twice.

 

[Marsha_Adams]

Hi Marsha,

I know that the Vatican facilitated a large number of POWs and Jews during WW2, I can still imagine that the smallest country in the world (only 0.17 square miles - - - about a city block) could quickly become over-crowded in a crisis situation leaving many people looking for other alternatives.

Not all of them were actually within the confines of the Vatican City itself. Many were hidden in the surrounding monasteries and convents. Also, many were given false baptismal certificates showing that they were “born” Catholic and were then able to flee Europe. With dna testing these days, that would probably not work, so you would be left to lie to the Israeli government and in so doing deny your faith. Of course, once you were allowed into Israel you could “convert” to Catholicism.

 

[Daniel49]

We knew a woman who became our friend (now deceased) who was a Jewish child living in occupied France during the German invasion of WWII.

She and her family found safe harbor within some institution of the Roman Catholic Church and survived the war as a result. She, and her family were provided with fake baptismal certificates just in case they were needed.

She told us that all of her family had promised to actually convert to Catholicism after the war was over, and that they did. Interesting real-life story.

Daniel49

 

[Marsha_Adams]

During the war, John XXIII (I’m not sure what his position was at the time) gave the Jewish leaders thousands of blank baptismal certificates. He assured them that filling them in would not make the people Catholic. It is nice that the family you mentioned chose to convert later.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

If you lied, you would be denying Jesus. I understand you desire to save yourself and children in this life…but we are not to deny Jesus if we wish for Him to acknowledge us before His Heavenly Father. Those were the words of Jesus Himself. Those who chose this life over Him are not with Him.

Is the servant greater than the Master? If Christ, Who is innocent, humbled Himself to die, death on the Cross…why should we, who are guilty, expect to not have to suffer if that is what comes to us?

You do not have to rush toward martyrdom, and you may run from it. You may not deny Jesus to get out of it.

And you may think that I can say that because I live so far from it becoming a possibility in my life. I assure you, I believe it is right around the corner for we Catholic Americans. And I have 4 children who I tremble at the thought of it happening to. Three of them are 9 and younger.

I pray that we may NEVER deny Jesus…no matter what.

 

[Daniel49]

I think that the real gist of my question is this:

“Do we have the right to martyr our children”.

Or -

“Are we required to afford the protection of their lives at all cost to own personal lives and souls?”

I would think that the latter applies given the sanctity of life position of our Church.

Daniel49

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I think that the real gist of my question is this:

“Do we have the right to martyr our children”.

Or -

“Are we required to afford the protection of their lives at all cost to own personal lives and souls?”

I would think that the latter applies given the sanctity of life position of our Church.

Daniel49

Would you rather him gain this life but lose his salvation by denial of Christ…or lose this life to gain his salvation by taking up his cross and following Jesus?

What good is this life over martyrdom if one must live the life of an unbeliever.

Jesus spoke clearly on this.
I understand your feelings…and your fears. I have young children. But I would much rather them be martyred today than to choose the side of evil and deny Christ.
Make no mistake. If it comes down to them being martyred or not, there will only be one of two choices to make. Christ or satan. No matter the disguises of satan; the choice is clearly made, and the line clearly drawn by satan.

 

[Ceil-1]

Aren’t you still a Jew?

Your children and spouse, in essence, are your dependents It seems to me they are obligated to take you in. I believe you would be better protected by the Church, however.

Not to worry, God would provide in your circumstance. As in WWII, though, some were ordained to suffer and die, others to be cared for and saved. Either way, your way is set before you when the time comes. :twocents:

 

[Daniel49]

Quoting Jesus N Cherie:

“Would you rather him gain this life but lose his salvation by denial of Christ…or lose this life to gain his salvation by taking up his cross and following Jesus?”

---

Again, this is not pertinent to my life. I would be making a decision for some young children in the circumstance. I would be martyrs out of them as well as myself. I am not so sure that my making saving the lives of my children would separate them from Jesus - - - it would only separate myself from Jesus.

Daniel49

 

[Daniel49]

Quoting Ceil-1

“Aren’t you still a Jew?”

---

The Jewish principle here would be this:

“Once a Jew, Always a Jew”

so, yes, I am still a Jew, although an Apostate Jew because I converted to Roman Catholicism.

That I why I answer the question as to what religion I am in this manner:

“Catholic Jew”

Daniel49

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Quoting Jesus N Cherie:

“Would you rather him gain this life but lose his salvation by denial of Christ…or lose this life to gain his salvation by taking up his cross and following Jesus?”

---

Again, this is not pertinent to my life. I would be making a decision for some young children in the circumstance. I would be martyrs out of them as well as myself. I am not so sure that my making saving the lives of my children would separate them from Jesus - - - it would only separate myself from Jesus.

Daniel49

***Let me give a clear example of what I believe is happening in the world today, and what is coming to America in the near future.

The radical muslim Christian hating persecuters come to your family. You have two choices. One, you admit your love and belief as Jesus being the Christ, God and Savior of all men…and you die. Or you allow these people to take control of every aspect of your children’t education…where they teach the child to hate Jesus, and all Christians…and to persecute them to death. And the children live…but lose their faith and identity as Christians.

Your responsibility first and foremost is to get these children to Heaven. To save their earthly lives, yet have them turned away from Christ is against what Christ commanded.***

 

[Daniel49]

Very unfortunately, I must agree with you - - - radical Islam is comming to our country and the choices will be along the lines that you outlined. I do not know how long it will be, but I can see it comming within the next 20 years.

I guess it is clear that we shall be martyring our children in that circumstance - - - sad but quite likely true.

• • • scary times are ahead.

Daniel49

ps - as a sidebar, keep in mind that they would only provide a choice of conversion to islam to non-Jews. Jews are given but one choice under their law and that is death. Christians are given the choice of conversion or death. My family would probably be toast no matter what I had to say about it anyway.

 

[RobHom]

Let me give a clear example of what I believe is happening in the world today, and what is coming to America in the near future.

The radical muslim Christian hating persecuters come to your family. You have two choices. One, you admit your love and belief as Jesus being the Christ, God and Savior of all men…and you die.

**Not without a “battle royal”!! And trust me…it will be a “battle royal”. If you want to “kill” me for my beliefs…you are going to work awfully hard to accomplish your goals.
**

Or you allow these people to take control of every aspect of your children’t education…where they teach the child to hate Jesus, and all Christians…and to persecute them to death. And the children live…but lose their faith and identity as Christians.

Not in my lifetime, and not in my country!!

Your responsibility first and foremost is to get these children to Heaven. To save their earthly lives, yet have them turned away from Christ is against what Christ commanded.

Then what one must do…is be prepared, spiritually, physically, and emotionally to stand up against all who seek to persecute and harm us. And yes, it is our responsibility to lead our children to Christ, and keep them on that path always. But we have no requirement to lay down and surrender to martyrdom, in fact quite to the contrary.

Bear this in mind…there are many, many, many thousands of us in this country, of many religions and beliefs that believe strongly in this country and democracy…and if the need arises, we will rise to the challenge. We once took an oath to “Protect and Defend”…that oath never ends.

 

[RobHom]

I guess it is clear that we shall be martyring our children in that circumstance - - - sad but quite likely true.

I disagree. We will NOT allow that to happen.

• • • scary times are ahead.

Of that I have little doubt…

ps - as a sidebar, keep in mind that they would only provide a choice of conversion to islam to non-Jews. Jews are given but one choice under their law and that is death. Christians are given the choice of conversion or death. My family would probably be toast no matter what I had to say about it anyway.

And for those very reasons we must not permit that to happen.

The only question that will remain when the time comes, is how many people will “cop out” and how many will “mount up” and meet the challenge at hand?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Very unfortunately, I must agree with you - - - radical Islam is comming to our country and the choices will be along the lines that you outlined. I do not know how long it will be, but I can see it comming within the next 20 years.

I guess it is clear that we shall be martyring our children in that circumstance - - - sad but quite likely true.

• • • scary times are ahead.

Daniel49

ps - as a sidebar, keep in mind that they would only provide a choice of conversion to islam to non-Jews. Jews are given but one choice under their law and that is death. Christians are given the choice of conversion or death. My family would probably be toast no matter what I had to say about it anyway.

I understand your fear and sorrow. But rather than dwell on that (which I am aware from personal experience of night sweats myself) is that conversion will never be the answer for those of us who are gentile Catholics. So me and mine will be martyred right along with you. And we will be rejoicing together in Heaven with Jesus Who is the Victor.