Catholic farmer vs City of East Lansing

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He should keep going and setting up his stand imo, and let them arrest him if they try.(although I doubt they would take it that far).

History celebrates those who actually stand up to these kinds of things, not just blindly obeys. Those who oppress and/or arrest him will eventually be viewed as the ones in the wrong.
 
A man who discriminates illegally in his business operations…I can’t really shed any tears for him.

What if he didn’t allow interracial marriages?
 
A man who discriminates illegally in his business operations…I can’t really shed any tears for him.

What if he didn’t allow interracial marriages?
Interracial marriage between a man and a woman is a marriage. Same sex marriage has no capacity to be conjugal; it is not a marriage. In the case presented, the farmer’s religious beliefs, which reflect the common view of marriage over several thousand years, are not accepted by the city. I think if he were asked to host a polygamous marriage or a marriage between a man and his tractor, he would decline those as well.
 
Interracial marriage between a man and a woman is a marriage. Same sex marriage has no capacity to be conjugal; it is not a marriage. In the case presented, the farmer’s religious beliefs, which reflect the common view of marriage over several thousand years, are not accepted by the city. I think if he were asked to host a polygamous marriage or a marriage between a man and his tractor, he would decline those as well.
I only meant that religious beliefs are no basis for discrimination when you do business. If your religion said that marriage between people of different races, eye colours, hair colours, etc., had no capacity to be conjugal, the entire world would be outraged.
 
I only meant that religious beliefs are no basis for discrimination when you do business. If your religion said that marriage between people of different races, eye colours, hair colours, etc., had no capacity to be conjugal, the entire world would be outraged.
Yes, certainly that would incur outrage. But in fact, people of different races, eye colors, hair colors, do have the capacity for a conjugal marriage, as long as the two being married are sexually complementary, i.e. man and woman.

It seems that the Catholic and until recently, common view of marriage, has in the eyes of the state become inherently discriminatory. And of course it is, since it limits marriage to two parties of complementary sexuality. But discrimination is not always a bad thing. Without discrimination, physicists could not distinguish a proton from an electron.
 
A man who discriminates illegally in his business operations…I can’t really shed any tears for him.

What if he didn’t allow interracial marriages?
What do you imagine he has to do with ‘allowing’ marriages of any sort, he’s not involved in the marriage licensing process.

There is also no evidence he was discriminating against customers at the market.

Do you also think he should be punished if he didn’t want his children to marry outside their faith?
 
I only meant that religious beliefs are no basis for discrimination when you do business. If your religion said that marriage between people of different races, eye colours, hair colours, etc., had no capacity to be conjugal, the entire world would be outraged.
And sexual preferences are no basis for confiscation of the constitutionally protected right of religofree exercise.
If my religion said those things I have a right to believe them, and exercise my religious freedom in the society at large. People also have a right to take their business elsewhere
 
A man who discriminates illegally in his business operations…I can’t really shed any tears for him.

What if he didn’t allow interracial marriages?
Do we really want the government sanctioning people for what they believe, no matter how odious we find that belief? That sounds like a state religion. In fact it is. If people don’t want to do business with someone that is one thing. But for the government to prohibit someone from doing business because of his belief is something else.
 
It seems that the Catholic and until recently, common view of marriage, has in the eyes of the state become inherently discriminatory. And of course it is, since it limits marriage to two parties of complementary sexuality.
Historically, marriage has been a means of securing alliances and producing children, but thankfully, people in this modern age marry for love, and to make their household finances a bit easier.
But discrimination is not always a bad thing. Without discrimination, physicists could not distinguish a proton from an electron.
Discrimination in this context means selecting against certain couples, and not against others. It’s different from determining differences.
]What do you imagine he has to do with ‘allowing’ marriages of any sort, he’s not involved in the marriage licensing process
Bad word choice on my part, fair enough.
There is also no evidence he was discriminating against customers at the market.
If he’s being slandered (not sure of correct legal term), then this changes everything.
Do you also think he should be punished if he didn’t want his children to marry outside their faith?
If he didn’t want that? No, though I’d probably assume a few stereotypes about him. He’s free to believe whatever he wants to, it’s acting on those beliefs that’s punishable.
And sexual preferences are no basis for confiscation of the constitutionally protected right of religofree exercise.
If my religion said those things I have a right to believe them, and exercise my religious freedom in the society at large. People also have a right to take their business elsewhere
You have a right to believe them, that doesn’t automatically grant you a right to operate a business run by those beliefs. To use a historical example, people believed that black people were unfit to use the same water fountains as white people, and we all saw how well that turned out. :rolleyes:
Do we really want the government sanctioning people for what they believe, no matter how odious we find that belief? That sounds like a state religion. In fact it is. If people don’t want to do business with someone that is one thing. But for the government to prohibit someone from doing business because of his belief is something else.
No, absolutely not. I want the government to sanction people for how they act.

It’s already generally accepted that a hotel owner can’t turn somebody away for being black. I would hope that you agree with that, but if you do, that’s a different discussion altogether.
 
The real problem I have here is the lack of nexus between his outside activities and the farmers market. There is nothing discriminatory in his behavior at the farmers market. For example, while I find the KKK abhorrent, I cannot see a reason from banning the head of the KKK from a farmers market. I wouldn’t buy anything from such a person though.
 
You have a right to believe them, that doesn’t automatically grant you a right to operate a business run by those beliefs. To use a historical example, people believed that black people were unfit to use the same water fountains as white people, and we all saw how well that turned out. :rolleyes:

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The comparison to blacks is ridiculous on its face (and an insult to blacks who suffered under Jim Crow) because the farmer did not say he would not serve gays. He is saying he will not participate in a ceremony that is counter to his religious beliefs. That is an exercise of religion, not discrimination.
 
The comparison to blacks is ridiculous on its face (and an insult to blacks who suffered under Jim Crow) because the farmer did not say he would not serve gays. He is saying he will not participate in a ceremony that is counter to his religious beliefs. That is an exercise of religion, not discrimination.
Unfortunately, by law, it is discriminatory in the sense that he’s refusing to participate in some ceremonies. He’s free to abide by his religious beliefs, and find a different line of work. This is the same situation as if his religious beliefs forbade him from participating in mixed-race marriages. Nobody’s forcing him to approve of anything, but if you want to do business there, you have to abide by certain criteria.
 
Shredderbeam;14883182]Unfortunately, by law, it is discriminatory in the sense that he’s refusing to participate in some ceremonies
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Unfortunately is right. The. Constitution says, “Congress shall make the law.”
He’s free to abide by his religious beliefs, and find a different line of work
There is nothing here that is similar to his being free. If he were free, he could abide by his religious beliefs and rights while he participates in his line of work. That would be being free
This is the same situation as if his religious beliefs forbade him from participating in mixed-race marriages. Nobody’s forcing him to approve of anything, but if you want to do business there, you have to abide by certain criteria
While there is absolutely no similarity to mixed race marriages, the court is forcing him to choose between his constitutionally protected right to religious free exercise ( which incidentally does not mention leaving one’s rights outside their career by force of the courts).

It is no more discriminatory for a business owner of faith than it is for a priest to not participate in such an event.
 
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