Catholic Forum, please explain this to me

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lemondiesel

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I learned about this in class today, and I think it brings up a huge issue.
Zoroastrism had a huge impact on Judaism and later on the Jesus myth. This religion focused on the battle between good an evil, it was a monotheism with one universal god (Ahura Mazda), and one prophet and saviour (Zoroaster). The idea of the final judgment with salvation or eternal damnation was adopted by the Jews and of course later became a central part of Christianity. After monotheism was established in the Jewish religion, the writers tried to change all traces after the old polytheism in the holy texts.
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Quick, they are going to kill you for revealing the truth! RUN NOW! CHRISTIANITY IS ACTUALLY ZOROASTRIANISM!!
 
The fact that there as a monotheistic religion prior to Judaism is a problem?
Furthermore “After monotheism was established in the Jewish religion, the writers tried to change all traces after the old polytheism in the holy texts.” is essentially a claim to explain the fact that you find little to no evidence of polytheism in Judaism- the other explanation being that there never was polytheism in Judaism. Take your pick.

Also, was there even much interaction between the Persian Zoroastrians and the Jews?
 
tjm190 said:
The fact that there as a monotheistic religion prior to Judaism is a problem?
Furthermore “After monotheism was established in the Jewish religion, the writers tried to change all traces after the old polytheism in the holy texts.” is essentially a claim to explain the fact that you find little to no evidence of polytheism in Judaism- the other explanation being that there never was polytheism in Judaism. Take your pick.

Also, was there even much interaction between the Persian Zoroastrians and the Jews
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lol uhhh yes…
It brings up the issue that these three monotheistic religions have only developed to claim a “chosen” people in the eyes of God.

Whatever part of the Tanakh you look at, a parallel can be found in the historical record of Egypt. The Tanakh is Egyptian history, through and through.

Even the story of creation was used from ancient Sumarian beliefs.
 
So what if the idea of punishment/reward is found in Zoroastrianism too. Just because there are similarities between religions does not in any way prove them to be false.
 
lemondiesel said:
I learned about this in class today, and I think it brings up a huge issue.
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Classic example of the “pagan influence fallacy”: catholic.com/library/Is_Catholicism_Pagan.asp

At first stuff like this used to bother me, but then I got a little more educated. We just have to remember that there are people with PhD’s in the Study of Religion that have considered these “issues” thoroughly and yet remain some of the most intelligent and devout Christians.

Good luck on your faith journey, by the way! 🙂
 
TomD123 said:
So what if the idea of punishment/reward is found in Zoroastrianism too. Just because there are similarities between religions does not in any way prove them to be false.
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these are not similar beliefs, they are taken beliefs. It shows that the Christian God many believe “judges” us in a way, actually doesn’t, because he did not originally teach it. Someone else did…

What if I took Christianity, used the majority of your beliefs, changed a few names here and there, and instead of Jesus as God’s son I will claim it is Paul… and wallah! I have a new religion. Oh and the only way to be in my new religion and be saved from eternal damnation you must be a vegetarian.
pcg2 said:
At first stuff like this used to bother me, but then I got a little more educated. We just have to remember that there are people with PhD’s in the Study of Religion that have considered these “issues” thoroughly and yet remain some of the most intelligent and devout Christians.

Good luck on your faith journey, by the way! 🙂
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my professor has a PhD in history, so she is qualified to teach ancient teachings. They could still be Christian because we can argue the existence of Jesus. (which I believe he did exist so do not bash me)

My faith journey has been underway for sometime. It is only till recently that I have found a religion that I do not strongly disagree with.

Please do not think my teacher walked into class and was like “Okay guys! Lets debunk monotheistic religions!!”
 
lemondiesel said:
lol uhhh yes…
It brings up the issue that these three monotheistic religions have only developed to claim a “chosen” people in the eyes of God.

Whatever part of the Tanakh you look at, a parallel can be found in the historical record of Egypt. The Tanakh is Egyptian history, through and through.

Even the story of creation was used from ancient Sumarian beliefs.
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That’s a bit like saying that because both Egyptians and ancient American peoples such as Incas or Mayas built pyramids that there must somehow be a connection between these cultures.

Of course there isn’t - there’s no possible way the one could have influenced the other. They independently came up with the same or similar idea, as remarkable as it seems.
 
LilyM said:
That’s a bit like saying that because both Egyptians and ancient American peoples such as Incas or Mayas built pyramids that there must somehow be a connection between these cultures.

Of course there isn’t - there’s no possible way the one could have influenced the other. They independently came up with the same or similar idea, as remarkable as it seems.
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But now you are evading the fact that Judaism (early Christianity) was influenced geographically by Egypt.

there is no possible way? Mayans didn’t build their first pyramid until the time around Christ. Egyptian’s built their first pyramid around 2600 BCE… that leaves plenty of time for influence my friend.
 
lemondiesel said:
my professor has a PhD in history, so she is qualified to teach ancient teachings. They could still be Christian because we can argue the existence of Jesus. (which I believe he did exist so do not bash me)

My faith journey has been underway for sometime. It is only till recently that I have found a religion that I do not strongly disagree with.

Please do not think my teacher walked into class and was like “Okay guys! Lets debunk monotheistic religions!!”
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Well then your professor is sadly mistaken if he/she is trying to infer causal relationships between Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions.

tell me, what problem do you see with Christianity (possibly) being influenced by other religions?
 
lemondiesel said:
But now you are evading the fact that Judaism (early Christianity) was influenced geographically by Egypt.
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Because they were in the same geographical area at the same time? By that logic Christianity in America is just as likely to have been influenced by Native American religious practices. 🤷
there is no possible way? Mayans didn’t build their first pyramid until the time around Christ. Egyptian’s built their first pyramid around 2600 BCE… that leaves plenty of time for influence my friend.
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No there isn’t. For one thing we know what technologies and modes of transport were available to both cultures, people simply couldn’t have travelled from the one place to the other during the relevant period.

Besides which, there would’ve been other Egyptian influences evident in Mayan culture along with the pyramid thing if there was contact. Linguistic influences, for example. And there have been none found in the extensive research that has been made into both cultures.
 
pcg2 said:
Well then your professor is sadly mistaken if he/she is trying to infer causal relationships between Zoroastrianism and the Abrahamic religions.

tell me, what problem do you see with Christianity (possibly) being influenced by other religions?
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Gladly. Thank you. You said Christianity, but remember this can be applied to Judaism and Islam as well.

When you bring the issue up “judging” and “obedience” towards God, all you are doing is allowing God to reinforce morality. If he truly gave us things like the Ten Commandments, then he is tampering with the supposed free will. “He is just guiding us,” doesn’t work because God can not truly reveal himself to anyone, because then he is messing with that persons free will. What if that person didn’t even want to believe in God, maybe he enjoys evil. If you truly believe in free will, you should believe God created the universe and let it play out, knowing that we would be created, because he knows eeeeeeeeeeverything

So then that goes to the point of ancient teachings. Ancient people worshiped things like the Sun and the Moon as gods because they are simple cause and effect relationships. They knew/felt effects from the sun and moon, but they couldn’t know what was causing it. They knew the effects of volcanoes, but they didnt know what caused them. They knew the effects of wind, they just did not know where wind came from.

As the mankind evolved, our knowledge expanded, and so did our idea of God. We were starting to answer more of the causes which in turn began the questioning of certain gods. Which made cause and effect change into explanations with not as many gods. As we began forming civilizations, we had to learn how to react with the Bible around, testing these cause and effect relationships.

Now… Jesus’, Muhammad’s, Buddha’s core teachings were morality, which in biblical sense, has “evolved” from cause and effect relationships.

“Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit.”

Sorry for the rant, its hard to explain the concept in just a brief response.

Okay, so when Judaic men wrote the Bible, the beginnings of the Bible, they specifically mention Jews receive the Holy Land and they are the only ones who can get into “heaven.” This now gives them a) right to be in Israel and b) they are chosen, they are reinforced by the Laws of Moses and morality, and they will be judged.

Now thats funny. This religion is parallel to Persian beliefs as well. So in a sense, they rewrote the story using “Israelite history”. (There is also Egyptian historical events in the OT)

That is like taking an apple, and covering it in chocolate. In the end it is still an apple.

Sorry for the rant, I would like to add; please do not think I hate the Bible or try and “debunk” it. It probably is one of the greatest writings in history, especially the new testament.

I would just like to show a parable of Jesus and could you tell me what the Christians interpretion it is?

“I tell you, on the day of judgment you will have to give an account for every careless word you utter; For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
Remember, Jesus refrains for using the word actions of any sort.

TO CONCLUDE 😛 the concept of God has changed over time, but the way to impress him hasn’t.
 
LilyM said:
people simply couldn’t have travelled from the one place to the other during the relevant period.
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Will you look up the “Sea People” which is in Egyptian hieorglyphics and other ancient texts as people on boats, who ultimately (still a theory) caused the Bronze Age collapse.
 
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