Catholic friend under attack from pentecostal relatives

[JamesG]

Hi,

A few months ago I meet a wonderfull catholic woman and I was very impressed with her faith. She has endured many verbal attacks by her pentecostal relatives in the last year. She even told me that her parents recently converted (from being unactive catholics) and as a result are now back togeather. They have used this as an excuse to try to convince her that their way is the right way.

Anyway, I am very worried about her. I think that it won’t be long and her parents will start to attack her.

She told me that sometimes she just placates them so that she doesn’t have to fight. I told her that she should not be afraid of these challenges and should use it as a chance to learn about her faith more and grow stronger. I told her that the answers are there. i just hope that I can help

Sadly I don’t know enough about pentecostals to help her. If any of you can help me outline some of the things that are wrong with their theology or with what they typically assult the church with it would help. I’m also interested in hearing from any former pentecostals and why they have or are considering becoming a catholic.

She told me that they don’t belive that mary was a virgin because in the bible it says that Jesus had a brother. Am I right to reason that this is an incorrect translation? Apparently, they also think that we are idol worshipers.

She also told me that she likes the way they are all very close and she doesn’t see that in the catholic church. I tried to tell her that groups of people like that do exist you just have to do more then simply go to mass.

I gave her a rosary that was blessed by JPII during world youth day. I also tried my best to remind her of Mary. I think that will be her one protection during all of this.

 

[Lampo]

Hi James. I don’t know much about Pentecostals or their religion, sorry. As far as Jesus having siblings, Mk 6:3 says, “Is not this the carpenter, the son of Mary and brother of James and Joses, and Judas and Simon, and are not His sisters here with us?” We need to realize a few things here about these “brothers and sisters”: #1, there was no word for cousin, or for nephew or niece, or for aunt or uncle in ancient Hebrew or Aramaic - the words that the Jews used in all those instances were “brother” or “sister”. An example of this can be seen in Gen 14:14, where Lot, who was Abraham’s nephew, is called his brother.

Another point to consider. If Jesus had had any brothers, if Mary had had any other sons, would the last thing that Jesus did on earth be to grievously offend his surviving brothers? In Jn 19:26-27, right before Jesus dies, it says that Jesus entrusted the care of His mother to the beloved disciple, John. If Mary had had any other sons, it would have been an incredible slap in the face to them that the Apostle John was entrusted with the care of their mother!

Also, we see from Mt. 27:55-56, that the James and Joses mentioned in Mark 6 as the “brothers” of Jesus, are actually the sons of another Mary. And, one other passage to consider is Acts 1:14-15, “[The Apostles] with one accord devoted themselves to prayer, together with the women and Mary the mother of Jesus and with His brothers…the company of persons was in all about a hundred and twenty.” A company of 120 persons composed of the Apostles, Mary, the women, and the “brothers” of Jesus. Let’s see there were 11 Apostles at the time. Jesus’ mother makes 12. The women, probably the same three women mentioned in Matthew 27, but let’s say it was maybe a dozen or two, just for argument’s sake. So that puts us up to 30 or 40 or so. So that leaves the number of Jesus’ brothers at about 80 or 90! Do you think Mary had 80 or 90 children? She would have been in perpetual labor! No, Scripture does not contradict the teaching of the Catholic Church about the “brothers” of Jesus, when Scripture is properly interpreted in context.

 

[Lampo]

As far as worshiping idols:

Deut. 4:15 - from this verse, Protestants say that since we saw “no form” of the Lord, we should not make graven images of Him.

Deut. 4:16 - of course, in early history Israel was forbidden to make images of God because God didn’t yet reveal himself visibly “in the form of any figure.”

Deut. 4:17-19 - hence, had the Israelites depicted God not yet revealed, they might be tempted to worship Him in the form of a beast, bird, reptile or fish, which was a common error of the times.

Exodus 3:2-3; Dan 7:9; Matt. 3:16; Mark 1:10; Luke 3:22; John 1:32; Acts 2:3- later on, however, we see that God did reveal himself in visible form (as a dove, fire, etc).

Deut. 5:8 - God’s commandment “thou shall not make a graven image” is entirely connected to the worship of false gods. God does not prohibit images to be used in worship, but He prohibits the images themselves to be worshiped.

Exodus 25:18-22; 26:1,31 - for example, God commands the making of the image of a golden cherubim. This heavenly image, of course, is not worshiped by the Israelites. Instead, the image disposes their minds to the supernatural and draws them to God.

Num. 21:8-9 - God also commands the making of the bronze serpent. The image of the bronze serpent is not an idol to be worshiped, but an article that lifts the mind to the supernatural.

I Kings 6:23-36; 7:27-39; 8:6-67 - Solomon’s temple contains statues of cherubim and images of cherubim, oxen and lions. God did not condemn these images that were used in worship.

2 Kings 18:4 - it was only when the people began to worship the statue did they incur God’s wrath, and the king destroyed it. The command prohibiting the use of graven images deals exclusively with the false worship of those images.

1 Chron. 28:18-19 - David gives Solomon the plan for the altar made of refined gold with a golden cherubim images. These images were used in the Jews’ most solemn place of worship.

2 Chron. 3:7-14 - the house was lined with gold with elaborate cherubim carved in wood and overlaid with gold.

Ezek. 41:15 - Ezekiel describes graven images in the temple consisting of carved likenesses of cherubim. These are similar to the images of the angels and saints in many Catholic churches.

Col. 1:15 - the only image of God that Catholics worship is Jesus Christ, who is the “image” (Greek “eikon”) of the invisible God.

 

[Asbestos_Mango]

Oh, it depends on what breed of Pentecostal we’re talking about.

The theology varies from one Pentecostal denomination to another, and often even from congregation to congregation.

I’m from South Bend, Indiana, which has several Pentecostal churches, ranging from the Christian Center Cathedral of Praise and Calvary Temple, both megachurches with congregations numbering in the thousands, to small “house churches” with congregations of, maybe a couple dozen or so.

The theology varies from what most evengelical Protestants would consider fairly orthodox to “word faith” insanity.

I recommend finding out what breed of Pentecostal the family is, and searching the Catholic Answers library and doing much printing out of articles. Also, Karl Keating’s book, “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” must be placed into your friend’s hands ASAP.

 

[JamesG]

Oh, it depends on what breed of Pentecostal we’re talking about.

errr… why does it have to be so difficult?

I recommend finding out what breed of Pentecostal the family is, and searching the Catholic Answers library and doing much printing out of articles. Also, Karl Keating’s book, “Catholicism and Fundamentalism” must be placed into your friend’s hands ASAP.

thanks I will get the book for her .

 

[Church_Militant]

James…a couple of other very good sources that she can use are.

Beginning Apologetics #1
http://shop.catholic.com/online-store/scstore/B0279.JPG
Which she’ll find an incredible tool for answering their attacks with simple facts. there are a total of 9 booklets in the series, but that first one is what most Catholics will need to be more than a match for any non-Catholic.

The other is John Martignoni’s Bible Christian Society CDs, which are FREE of charge and even available as MP3 downloads for you to listen to and share.

If you need specific help please feel free to PM or e-mail me through CAF here. I was Pentecostal (Assembly of God) for quite a while and can probably help you with anything that comes up.
Pax tecum,

 

[Gamera]

Oh, it depends on what breed of Pentecostal we’re talking about.

Yup. My college girlfriend was a Pentecostalist, so I attended many a Pentecostalist service with her. They certainly weren’t Catholic, but they didn’t have an anti-Catholic bone in their bodies. Their attitude was good and their faith was strong, it was just their theology that was weak. So it all depends on the particular Pentecostalist church.

 

[Randy_Carson]

She told me that they don’t belive that mary was a virgin because in the bible it says that Jesus had a brother. Am I right to reason that this is an incorrect translation?

Brothers of Jesus, Not Sons of Mary

Many non-Catholics deny the Perpetual Virginity of Mary by referring to passages of scripture that mention the “brothers” of Jesus. A rigorous analysis of scripture, however, proves their position is false. Consider the following:

1. Jesus had a “brother” named James.

"Isn’t this the carpenter’s son? Isn’t his mother’s name Mary, and aren’t his brothers James, Joseph, Simon and Judas?” (Matthew 13:55)

1. James, the Lord’s “brother”, is an apostle.

“Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem to visit Cephas, and remained with him fifteen days. But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother. (Galatians 1:18-19)

1. There are two apostles named James.

“When morning came, he called his disciples to him and chose twelve of them, whom he also designated apostles: Simon (whom he named Peter), his brother Andrew, James, John, Philip, Bartholomew, Matthew, Thomas, James son of Alphaeus, Simon who was called the Zealot, Judas son of James, and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

1. One James (the brother of John) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Zebedee.

“James son of Zebedee and his brother John (to them he gave the name Boanerges, which means Sons of Thunder)” (Mark 3:17)

1. The other apostle named James is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his father is Alpheus.

“And when it was day, he called his disciples, and chose from them twelve, whom he called apostles: Simon, whom he named Peter and Andrew his brother, and James and John and Philip and Bartholomew, and Matthew and James the son of Alpheus, and Simon who was called the Zealot, and Judas the son of James and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor.” (Luke 6:13-16)

1. Therefore, neither apostle named James was a uterine brother of Jesus.
2. The man named Joseph (or Joses) is not the uterine brother of Jesus; his brother is James, and his father is Alpheus.

“Many women were there, watching from a distance. They had followed Jesus from Galilee to care for his needs. Among them were Mary Magdalene, Mary the mother of James and Joses, and the mother of Zebedee’s sons.” (Matthew 27:55-56)

1. Jude (also called Thaddeus) is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is a brother of James.

“Jude, a servant of Jesus Christ and a brother of James” (Jude 1)

1. Judas is not a uterine brother of Jesus because he is the son of James.

“When they arrived, they went upstairs to the room where they were staying. Those present were Peter, John, James and Andrew; Philip and Thomas, Bartholomew and Matthew; James son of Alphaeus and Simon the Zealot, and Judas son of James.” (Acts 1:13)

1. While Matthew 15:35 declares James, Joseph and Judas to be the “brothers” of Jesus, it has been demonstrated from scripture that they are NOT uterine brothers of the Lord. From this, it is apparent that scripture must be using the term “brothers” to mean relatives other than sons of Mary.

By illustrating Protestant misunderstanding on this issue, one can begin to understand that Protestants have not been told the whole truth and that Protestantism is incomplete, insufficient and incoherent.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Apparently, they also think that we are idol worshipers.

On Statues and Praying to Saints

Do you ever just “talk” to God? We know God is called “Abba” or “Father” in the scriptures, and “Abba” translates into English more correctly as “Daddy”. So, do you ever just have a heart-to-heart talk with your daddy in heaven? I hope you do, because it’s a good thing to talk with Him about the things that are on your mind and heart.

Not all conversation with God is “worship”. In our prayer, there are times when we worship God for who He is. At other times, we praise Him and give thanks for what He has done, we repent for our sins, and we intercede for others.

If someone in your family became seriously ill, would pray or intercede for him. Would you also ask a friend from your church to pray for him? Or if someone in your church and asked you to pray for a sick relative, would you?

The Apostle Paul often prayed on behalf of those believers to whom he wrote, and he requested the prayers of the saints on his own behalf. “I urge you, brothers, by our Lord Jesus Christ and by the love of the Spirit, to join me in my struggle by praying to God for me.” (Romans 15:30) And again, “I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone—for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness.” (1 Timothy 2:1-2)

Similarly, we can ask saints in heaven to intercede before God on our behalf. To “pray” to a saint does not mean to worship him or her; it simply means to “talk” to him or her. They can hear us because they are not dead - they’re alive! Jesus said:

“Have you not read in the book of Moses, in the account of the bush, how God said to him, ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living. You are badly mistaken!” (Mark 12:26-27)

As for making images of “anything in heaven or on the earth”, consider God’s own command to Moses:

They traveled from Mount Hor along the route to the Red Sea, to go around Edom. But the people grew impatient on the way; they spoke against God and against Moses, and said, “Why have you brought us up out of Egypt to die in the desert? There is no bread! There is no water! And we detest this miserable food!” Then the LORD sent venomous snakes among them; they bit the people and many Israelites died. The people came to Moses and said, “We sinned when we spoke against the LORD and against you. Pray that the LORD will take the snakes away from us.” So Moses prayed for the people. The LORD said to Moses, “Make a snake and put it up on a pole; anyone who is bitten can look at it and live.” So Moses made a bronze snake and put it up on a pole. Then when anyone was bitten by a snake and looked at the bronze snake, he lived. (Numbers 21:4-9)

[Hezekiah] did what was right in the eyes of the LORD, just as his father David had done. He removed the high places, smashed the sacred stones and cut down the Asherah poles. He broke into pieces the bronze snake Moses had made, for up to that time the Israelites had been burning incense to it. (It was called Nehushtan.) (2 Kings 18:3-5)

The Lord commanded Moses to make an image of a snake to save the people who were bitten by serpents. Later, when the Israelites began to worship and burn incense to it, Hezekiah destroyed it as a false god.

Today, Catholics use pictures and statues of great Christians of the past to remind us of their worthy example. Yes, we ask them to pray for us…just as you yourself might ask someone in your own congregation to pray for a sick relative. The saints are alive and able to pray for us just as much as you and I can pray for each other.

And since they are already in heaven before the throne of God, we might consider that their prayers are even more effective than our own for "The prayer of a righteous man is powerful and effective.” (James 5:16) They’re obviously righteous since they’re already home!

 

[VociMike]

She told me that they don’t belive that mary was a virgin because in the bible it says that Jesus had a brother.

If Jesus really had brothers (other sons of Mary) then He sinned at the very time of His saving passion and death, for He sent Mary to live with John for the rest of her days, thus (if she had other sons) tearing her apart from her surviving family at the very moment of their greatest need for each other. This would be a great dishonoring of His mother, and thus a great sin.

Do they really think that Jesus sinned on the cross?

 

[FCEGM]

Hi. . .

I gave her a rosary that was blessed by JPII during world youth day. I also tried my best to remind her of Mary. I think that will be her one protection during all of this.

James, if she has access to the internet, it would certainly be worth recommending that she visit the Catholic Answers’ site with all its helpful articles (not to mention the Forum) to help shore-up her Faith and her resolve.

 

[Della]

I was a member of the Assemblies of God for 20 years and met all kinds of Pentecostals. If you or she have any specific questions about how they operate and what they believe, I’d be happy to talk to either of you. You can PM me if you’d like.

 

[Asbestos_Mango]

errr… why does it have to be so difficult?

I don’t know, man, I didn’t do it. They’re the ones who keep splintering off into new, different, and weirder subsects of subsects…

thanks I will get the book for her .

De nada.

 

[rtconstant]

You’ve been given good advice here for your friend. As has been stated some basic scripture reading, and basic apologetics books should be enough for her. Also making sure that she understands Catholic doctrine will help her to. If she does these things she should be fine.

If she knows what kind of Pentecostal church that her family goes to then it wouldn’t hurt for her to read up on them. While the Pentecostal movement may be the largest protestant movement (around 75 million) it is also the most segmented and diverse. You’d really be surprised at the beliefs that have come out of the charismatic movement. Some pentecostals aren’t even christian in that they do not baptise in the name of the Trinity.

In anycase the charismatic movement has given birth to some of the most dangerous and strange doctrines in the Protestant movement. With basic study it shouldn’t be hard to for your friend to defend her Faith. I hope though that she will continue to study and perhaps save her family back from this dangerous path.

 

[JamesG]

In the country of mexico there are people who walk on their knees more then 5km as a sacrifice to the Virgin of Guadalupe (on dec 12). When they arive they ask the virgin for the things they want and then they go to a bar and drink until they are drunk.

These people believe more in the Virgin of Guadalupe, than in Jesus, and the priests in mexico are tired of explaining that the Virgin by herself doesn’t have power to make miracles, she is like a mediator between men and Jesus. These people sadly don’t understand.

My question is simple. Is it a sin for these people to act this way? Furthmore what should the church do about this?

Another problem is that there are some people who will completely ignore the rosary because they do not want to be a part of this kind of behaviour. People who act in this way provide foder for the protestants.

 

[Sixtus]

She told me that they don’t belive that mary was a virgin because in the bible it says that Jesus had a brother.

Perhaps they do not believe that God the Father is a virgin because He had a Son

In Aramaic, the language the Lord spoke, the noun ‘brother’ is taken to mean ‘brother-in law’, step-brother, half-brother cousin, uncle, nephew, even close male friends of a family for whom there is no blood line.

Joseph was a widow. It is quite likely that Jesus’ brothers were children from his former marriage.

If as the Pentecostels say Mary had other children, then why on the cross did the Lord commend Mary to the care of the Apostle John? That would have made no sense at all, as she would have been looked after by her other children. particularly in the cultures of the middle east. So too in the West before and during the early parts of the Industrial Revolution .