Catholic Gifts to Lutherans

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EvangelCatholic said:
Jon

Does your parish venerate the crucifix on Good Friday? Lutherans do. Is that worshiping the cross?
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I believe that in olden days, the English word “worship” was in fact sometimes used to mean “venerate” … hence the existence of old Catholic documents referring to “worshiping Mary”.
 
benjohnson said:
We had a well intentioned sunday-school teacher try to tell our youngest to “be the crucifix” and hold out your arms. I didn’t interrupt her lesson, and she really meant well, but we did come to an a better theological understanding afterwards. Of course, I’ve done worse!
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Whatever happened to “be the ball”? (Or, in the case of Julie Roberts in Runaway Bride, be the bell.)
 
NovusAugustus said:
It’s very complex and has a lot to do with how I feel about the Lutherans (and Anglicans) in general. In some ways your Churches seem similar to the Orthodox in that some parts of your communion have valid if illicit and schismatic orders and adhere to the Traditional sacraments, but the heterodoxy that was permitted to flourish in your communions in the past couple decades/centuries throws doubt on the legitimacy of the modern Lutheran Churches, even the traditional ones.

That’s why I have mixed feelings about these church buildings.The early Evangelical Catholics had so much in common that they could be seen as similar to groups like the SSPX…but the Evangelical Catholics today seem to be such a loose heterodoxy it is hard to have any view on the “Lutheran” body as a whole. I almost feel that each Lutheran bishop (or priest/pastor if there is no bishop in the area) has to be evaluated individually, which is very frustrating.

I know this is a bit of a rant but I have been reading this section of CAF for a while and it is so frustrating. Obviously we would love a truly ecumenical Church, but how can this be done when you have beautiful, traditional, episcopal, reformed Churches that are considered on a par with strange modern Lutheran churches with priestesses, once-a-month communion and so on.

When I look at an Orthodox Church I say–okay, they may not accept the authority of Rome, so we can never be truly certain of their salvation, but at least I can be certain that they practice valid and true sacraments in accord with Tradition. So even though I may feel that the Orthodox church buildings ultimately “belong” under the jurisdiction of what I know as the true Roman Church, I can see that it is certainly following the ancient, holy, and true faith of the Apostles.

Almost none of that is true when I see a Reformed church building. It may or may not have validly done sacraments. For that matter, it may or may not be apostolic. Its doctrines may be almost blue-blooded Catholic, or they may be closer to Joel Olsteen hogwash.

At the end of the day, what is a Lutheran/Evangelical Catholic/Reformed Christian?

I don’t really expect an answer, this is just my musings on the difficulties our Churches face if we are to visibly and temporally achieve the unity Christ desired.
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I appreciate your feedback, my friend, and am sensitive to how this must be for a Roman Catholic. These magnificent churches in Germany are awe-inspiring for most people whether they are Catholic, Lutheran or not even Christian.

I am not very familiar with the political situation during/ after the Reformation but I understand that whole sections of northern Europe became Lutheran because the power of princes, kings, the Peace of Augsburg, etc decided it as so. Essentially a church or cathedral merely went from Roman Catholic to Lutheran. Same thing occurred in Great Britain. Bishops and priests kept doing the same thing after the Reformation that they did before the Reformation with rather minor changes to the liturgy aside from the vernacular, which was a major reform. The lasting impact was the division of the Western Church that continued well after Luther; thus all the different Protestants groups.

As I have commented before, Lutherans kept the churches intact because they felt they were Catholics of an evangelical persuasion. I have viewed photos of cathedrals in Scandinavia that were constructed centuries after the Reformation that look plain compared to the gothic style and they remind me of modern day Roman Catholic churches. In a way, Christians are less visual today and these wonderful treasures from the late middle ages and Renaissance reflect a different mindset.

I don’t mean to offend Catholics with these photos.
 
Another unique aspect of this cathedral is that the parish is Lutheran-Reformed. I noticed they celebrate holy Communion once a month. But what a wonderful place to worship!
 
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