Catholic Gifts to Lutherans

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I did a little research and found this description of the high altar of St Jacob Church that lists the 6 saints on either side of the crucifix. Leonhard Weidmann, the artisan who created the altar, is situated between St John and St Antonius the Hermit. So is he St Leonhard?

flickriver.com/photos/zug55/2664076295/
The Twelve Apostles Altar (Zwölf-Boten-Altar, 1466) in the east choir is one of the finest Gothic high altars, made by Swabian master carvers. We see six saints (from left to right): Elizabeth, James (or Jakob, the patron saint of the church), Mary, John, Leonhard, and Antonius the Hermit. The predella below (not shown here) represents Christ and the twelve apostles.

In addition to the side altar of the Crowning of the Virgin Mary, this church also has an altar of the Holy Blood. At the top of the altar, there is a rock crystal capsule which holds the Reliquary of the Holy Blood :confused: Other relics include a piece of wood from the table at the Last Supper, a nail from the holy cross, a thorn from the crown Christ wore before the crucifixion and some of Mary’s milk.
books.google.com/books?id=zleSnaeZx8QC&pg=PA134&lpg=PA134&dq=st+jacob’s+church+rothenburg+relics&source=bl&ots=8COI9OwcOw&sig=Gn2hIGt2q70ziNbAXjNuO1ogFzc&hl=en&sa=X&ei=fNk3UrPWBILOiwL0qYEI&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=st%20jacob’s%20church%20rothenburg%20relics&f=false

I don’t know how many Lutherans believe all this stuff but it was one of the reasons for Luther’s concern on the veneration of the saints.
 
steido01 said:
Is that why you redacted portions of Luther’s writings? Do keep in mind that Luther was fiercely against violent uprisings; see his work against te peasant revolt and my previous post. You may find it equally “uncomfortable” that some Roman Catholics had similar sentiments with the monasteries of that age.

Last I knew, Anglicans were not Lutherans. Please do not group protestants together. Lutherans monasteries exist to this day.
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So do Anglican monasteries and religious communities. Note the Cowley Fathers (society of Saint John the Divine) and the Holy Cross Fathers (Order of the Holy Cross).

There are many more. Anglican Benedictines and Franciscans for example.
 
Randy_Carson said:
I do understand. However, my point was that Catholic monasteries, churches and lands were simply taken by Protestants in both England and Germany.

So, while some have been unhappy with me for butting into this thread, I can’t help but recall that some of the things that Protestants received from the Catholic Church were NOT freely given!

And here’s another of my thoughts: while everyone is busy making reparations and apologizing to the Jews for their ill treatment down through the centuries, is there any chance we Catholics will be getting any of that property back any time soon?

😉
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I feel like I’ve been combating you in the threads lately - sorry, Randy! :hug3: Just wanted to point out the context of Luther’s quote and the portions you omitted. It tells a rather different story; firstly, a lament about what monasteries had become and, secondly, it gives a practical means of [not] using them and their possessions to do good (note that he advises the princes to dismantle them legally -as it was within their right within their realm- and does not advocate the destruction of monasteries by mobs). I do wonder if the reformers would have seen the monasteries in a different light, had monasteries more often served their proper, original purposes: as a simultaneous place of retreat to God and service to neighbor. I think some of this shines through in Article XXVII of the Augsburg Confession.

As for Rome getting property ‘back,’ well… we’ll trade. St. Mary’s Church in Wittenberg for St. Peter’s Basilica in Rome - straight up. 😛
 
pablope said:
Whether you like it or not…you are part of the umbrella of Protestants…with the Anglicans…perhaps the most common factor…anti papacy.
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That common factor includes Orthodoxy. Are they, therefore, protestant? The Old Catholics broke away particularly because of the claim of infallibility ex cathedra. Are they protestant?
Can we assume, as a result, that the definition of protestant is “any Christian communion or group that is not Catholic?”

“Protestantism” is a fictional umbrella, a term with no real meaning other than a convenient way to say, non-Catholic western Christian. The term comes from the protest at the Second Diet of Speyer in 1529, of which the Anglicans had no part.

Jon
 
pablope said:
Whether you like it or not…you are part of the umbrella of Protestants…with the Anglicans
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I agree (just as the term “catholic” encompasses Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans along with a few smaller groups like Old Catholics, PNCC and ACoE). But as far as your next statement
pablope said:
…perhaps the most common factor…anti papacy.
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I don’t think you really thought that through. On the one hand, if you mean “anti papacy” as that phrase is usually understood, that is absolutely not a requirement for being “protestant”. (It’s sad that many protestants are, in fact, anti-papacy. 😦 But I won’t get into that.)

P.S. If you meant something different, e.g. if you meant non-papal rather than anti-papal, then isn’t that like saying “A common characteristic of Christians is that they don’t accept Buddhist teachings”?
 
Randy_Carson said:
, is there any chance we Catholics will be getting any of that property back any time soon?

😉
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I think all of our churches will have to get used to having our building and their contents stolen - Anglicans are having their churches stolen by the secular wolves their midst, Lutherans are having their churches stolen by the secular wolves in their midst, and sadly, I’m sure many Catholic hospitals and charities will be stolen by the secular wolves in the culture.

Loss of our buildings is difficult no matter the time in history or by what reason - but we have Christ. May our loss drive us into His outstretched arms.
 
Randy makes a cogent point. The properties were lost not by choice but at the point of a sword. They are therefore spoils of war. There were Catholic and Lutheran armies in the field during the Reformation. There were also Anabaptist armies, for a short period of time, but they could not stand against the combined might of Catholics and Lutherans. One thing that Catholics and Lutherans could agree on was that Anabaptists did not deserve to live.

One thing I will challenge Randy on is the idea of return of properties. Buildings half a millennium old have huge maintenance costs. A wholesale return with the proviso that they be maintained would probably bankrupt the Catholic Church. Randy, you do not need to put such ideas forward to anti-Catholics.😉
 
What I discovered was the number of Roman Catholic churches that became Lutheran and everything was kept intact including shrines to saints, esp the Virgin Mary and huge sacrament house/ tabernacles. Some day Roman Catholics and Lutherans will worship together in these beautiful and ancient churches.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Randy makes a cogent point. The properties were lost not by choice but at the point of a sword. They are therefore spoils of war. There were Catholic and Lutheran armies in the field during the Reformation. There were also Anabaptist armies, for a short period of time, but they could not stand against the combined might of Catholics and Lutherans. One thing that Catholics and Lutherans could agree on was that Anabaptists did not deserve to live.

One thing I will challenge Randy on is the idea of return of properties. Buildings half a millennium old have huge maintenance costs. A wholesale return with the proviso that they be maintained would probably bankrupt the Catholic Church. Randy, you do not need to put such ideas forward to anti-Catholics.😉
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Nah…we could just rent them back to you! 😛
 
This is the Church of St Cosmas and Damien in Stade, Germany. The original church was built in the 12th century. The first photo of the side altar is devoted to the blessed Virgin Mary and reflects the triptych style so common in Europe. The second photo is the high altar that Lutherans built in 1675 reflects Gothic. I find these magnificent churches a wonderful testament to our shared expression of the holy Faith.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
Randy makes a cogent point. The properties were lost not by choice but at the point of a sword. They are therefore spoils of war. There were Catholic and Lutheran armies in the field during the Reformation. There were also Anabaptist armies, for a short period of time, but they could not stand against the combined might of Catholics and Lutherans. One thing that Catholics and Lutherans could agree on was that Anabaptists did not deserve to live.
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How very Christian of you. :rolleyes: I probably need to study this some more, but to me the very idea of Anabaptist armies sounds like an oxymoron considering all Anabaptist groups I am familiar with (Mennonite, Amish, and of course Brethren) are staunch pacifists. 🤷
 
In 1534, the Anabaptists set up a government in Muenster, Germany. The city was attacked by combined Lutheran and Catholic armies. The leaders were killed and their bodies put into cages and hung from the cathedral. Survivors decided to forgo violence and became pacifists, as BrethrenBoy has said. The Augsburg Confession is as much in reaction to Anabaptist beliefs and practices as it is about Catholic beliefs and practices.
 
Oldtimer_7 said:
In 1534, the Anabaptists set up a government in Muenster, Germany. The city was attacked by combined Lutheran and Catholic armies. The leaders were killed and their bodies put into cages and hung from the cathedral. Survivors decided to forgo violence and became pacifists, as BrethrenBoy has said. The Augsburg Confession is as much in reaction to Anabaptist beliefs and practices as it is about Catholic beliefs and practices.
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Keep in mind that the Lutheran Communion [LWF] profoundly expressed our horror and contrition to Anabaptists for what our Lutheran ancestors did to other Protestants.
 
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