Catholic godparents to a non-Catholic niece.

[maritamd]

A quick question to those who can help me, please! My husband and I are practicing Catholics, who have been asked to be godparents to our neice, who will be baptized by my sister-in-laws father who is a methodist pastor in their methodist church. My brother who was raised Catholic, married my sister-in-law in the Methodist faith. Are we as Catholics allowed by our faith to sponser this child and be her godparents, or is this considered to be spiritually wrong? I would loath causing a family dispute when all we want to do is help influence this child in a positive, Christian way. Thanks.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

A quick question to those who can help me, please! My husband and I are practicing Catholics, who have been asked to be godparents to our neice, who will be baptized by my sister-in-laws father who is a methodist pastor in their methodist church. My brother who was raised Catholic, married my sister-in-law in the Methodist faith. Are we as Catholics allowed by our faith to sponser this child and be her godparents, or is this considered to be spiritually wrong? I would loath causing a family dispute when all we want to do is help influence this child in a positive, Christian way. Thanks.

Even though your brother could have validly Married your sister-in-law in a Methodist church with a Methodist minister officiating, with his Bishops permission and the proper dispensations. A non-Catholic Christian cannot be a Godparent of a child being Baptized in the Catholic Church, and the reverse is also true. A Catholic cannot be a Godparent of a child being Baptized in a non-Catholic Christian Community. Christianity is still divided, when the Methodists plan to return to Catholic union is still unclear.

 

[FightingFat]

I wouldn’t agree with Brother Rich there, Methodist Baptism is valid for us and I would take this opportunity with both hands in order to strengthen your family ties, to show Christian unity and also to influence your new God daughter!

 

[Erich]

Actually, per the Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism,

1. It is the Catholic understanding that godparents, in a liturgical and canonical sense, should themselves be members of the Church or ecclesial Community in which the baptism is being celebrated. They do not merely undertake a responsibility for the Christian education of the person being baptized (or confirmed) as a relation or friend; they are also there as representatives of a community of faith, standing as guarantees of the candidate’s faith and desire for ecclesial communion.

 

[bbentrup]

Even though your brother could have validly Married your sister-in-law in a Methodist church with a Methodist minister officiating, with his Bishops permission and the proper dispensations. A non-Catholic Christian cannot be a Godparent of a child being Baptized in the Catholic Church, and the reverse is also true. A Catholic cannot be a Godparent of a child being Baptized in a non-Catholic Christian Community. Christianity is still divided, when the Methodists plan to return to Catholic union is still unclear.

What you write is somewhat misleading.
Code of Canon Law:

Canon 874 §2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

As long as a baby has either a godfather or godmother [sponsor] who is Catholic, the other may be a baptized person of a different faith community. It is not clear whether this person is accorded the title of ‘sponsor’ or not, but this person may certainly act in that role apart from the ceremony and lead that person to Christ.

Warning - this is not the ideal - Catholics should always ideally use only Catholic sponsors!

I don’t know of any norms preventing the reverse. I imagine a Catholic would be an ideal role model for a young one. The last poster’s link rather proves this:

98. It is the Catholic understanding that godparents, in a liturgical and canonical sense, should themselves be members of the Church or ecclesial Community in which the baptism is being celebrated. They do not merely undertake a res- ponsibility for the Christian education of the person being baptized (or confirmed) as a relation or friend; they are also there as representatives of a community of faith, standing as guarantees of the candidate’s faith and desire for ecclesial communion.

a) However, based on the common baptism and because of ties of blood or friendship, a baptized person who belongs to another ecclesial Community may be admitted as a witness to the baptism, but only together with a Catholic godparent.107 A Catholic may do the same for a person being baptized in another ecclesial Community.

If a serious question of scandal of faith during the witness of the ceremony arises, the parties involved may want to have the godparent witness the baptism by proxy out of prudence, but otherwise this practice seems permissible.

 

[Newbie2]

“It is the Catholic understanding that godparents, in a liturgical and canonical sense, should themselves be members of the Church or ecclesial Community in which the baptism is being celebrated.”

Should, not must.

I’d let them know about this instruction, and if they still really want you to do it, go ahead. I’d also ask them whether or not they would, if they weren’t able to do it, mind if their kid were to be instructed in the Catholic faith, under your supervision, as that (may or would) be your preference.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

I wouldn’t agree with Brother Rich there, Methodist Baptism is valid for us and I would take this opportunity with both hands in order to strengthen your family ties, to show Christian unity and also to influence your new God daughter!

The problem is as the Ecumenical documents warn, we do not create unity where it does not exist by sharing Sacraments.

A Catholic of course cannot stand up and say they will help the parents raise the child Methodist.

The Methodists of course would not like it if they stood up and professed to help the parents raise the child Catholic:shrug:

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

What you write is somewhat misleading.

As long as a baby has either a godfather or godmother [sponsor] who is Catholic, the other may be a baptized person of a different faith community. It is not clear whether this person is accorded the title of ‘sponsor’ or not, but this person may certainly act in that role apart from the ceremony and lead that person to Christ.

Warning - this is not the ideal - Catholics should always ideally use only Catholic sponsors!

I don’t know of any norms preventing the reverse. I imagine a Catholic would be an ideal role model for a young one. The last poster’s link rather proves this:

If a serious question of scandal of faith during the witness of the ceremony arises, the parties involved may want to have the godparent witness the baptism by proxy out of prudence, but otherwise this practice seems permissible.

I did not say anything about “Christian Witnesses”. I’m only speaking about being **Godparents **in my original post. Re-read it carefully, there is nothing misleading about it.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

“It is the Catholic understanding that godparents, in a liturgical and canonical sense, should themselves be members of the Church or ecclesial Community in which the baptism is being celebrated.”

Should, not must.

I’d let them know about this instruction, and if they still really want you to do it, go ahead. I’d also ask them whether or not they would, if they weren’t able to do it, mind if their kid were to be instructed in the Catholic faith, under your supervision, as that (may or would) be your preference.

A child being Baptized SHOULD also have a Godparent, but it’s also not required for validity. Why are we always looking for loop- holes?

I wonder if the brother has been asked why he is not keeping to his promises to do all in his power to Baptize and raise his children in the Catholic faith?

 

[bbentrup]

I did not say anything about “Christian Witnesses”. I’m only speaking about being **Godparents **in my original post. Re-read it carefully, there is nothing misleading about it.

I was trying to be charitable. Fine, in the interest of clarity, I’ll say instead that you are wrong. Contrary to what you stated in your first post of this thread, a Catholic can be a godparent of a Methodist and vice-versa. You said they can’t, and I quoted the canon that disproves that.

(I had given you the benefit of the doubt at first, since the canon appears to use the word ‘sponsor’ instead of ‘godparent’, and says the non-Catholic baptized sponsor cannot participate except as ‘witness’. Perhaps this is what you had meant when you said a non-Catholic can’t be the godparent, and that is why, if so, this statement is misleading, at best.)

 

[Newbie2]

That’s a good question. I wasn’t fishing for a loophole, but if it’s not a requirement and there would be long-lasting or permanent family strife over it…I’d ask what’s more important from a pastoral standpoint, following the letter of the law, or the spirit of it?

Besides, **if **the Godparents were able to raise the Godchild in the Catholic faith…isn’t that better for the Godchild?

 

[bbentrup]

I did not say anything about “Christian Witnesses”. I’m only speaking about being **Godparents **in my original post. Re-read it carefully, there is nothing misleading about it.

Where in Canon Law does it say a Catholic cannot be a godparent to a Methodist child, as you originally wrote? Please answer this.

Canon Law says nothing about godparents. In the section about sponsors, it seems to equate this term with godparent but such is not a given. Certainly in common parlance a ‘godparent’ is the person (unless by proxy) who stands up and witnesses with the parents the child’s baptism. In certain circumstances, these can certainly include Methodists. When it says they participate only as ‘witnesses’ of the baptism, it does not explicitly state anywhere that they are not ‘sponsors’. Failing that, since it is under the section entitled ‘sponsors’, it seems reasonable to interpret them as ‘sponsors’ as well.

However, even if this last assumption is proven to be false, the obvious intent of the original poster’s question was whether or not she could be a godparent in the ordinary sense of the word, that is leading the child to Christ. This is an emphatic ‘yes’. Perhaps you would like to define your terms since perhaps you are using the word ‘godparent’ in a different way not used by the OP. I stand by my earlier characterization of your post as misleading, unless you are honestly trying to help, but simply wrong.

 

[Erich]

As noted above, Can. 872-874 uses the term “sponsor” to denote someone who is commonly referred to “godparent”. The CCC, however, does not use the term “sponsor”, it uses the terms “godparent”, “godfather”, and “godmother” (which is where, I think, the confusion stems from).

1253 Baptism is the sacrament of faith. But faith needs the community of believers. It is only within the faith of the Church that each of the faithful can believe. the faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. the catechumen or the godparent is asked: “What do you ask of God’s Church?” the response is: “Faith!”

1255 For the grace of Baptism to unfold, the parents’ help is important. So too is the role of the godfather and godmother, who must be firm believers, able and ready to help the newly baptized - child or adult on the road of Christian life. Their task is a truly ecclesial function (officium). The whole ecclesial community bears some responsibility for the development and safeguarding of the grace given at Baptism.

So, for someone being baptized in the Catholic Church, there is to be only one godfather or only one godmother or one of each (i.e. neither two godfathers nor two godmothers). Recall that in order to take on the role of a godparent (aka sponsor), one must fulfill the requirements of Can. 874 (including being a baptized and confirmed Catholic in good standing). A non-Catholic can only serve as a Christian witness.
Directory for the Application of Principles and Norms on Ecumenism:

a) However, based on the common baptism and because of ties of blood or friendship, a baptized person who belongs to another ecclesial Community may be admitted as a witness to the baptism, but only together with a Catholic godparent. A Catholic may do the same for a person being baptized in another ecclesial Community.

A Catholic is not forbidden to stand as godparent in an Eastern Orthodox Church, if he/she is so invited. In this case, the duty of providing for the Christian education binds in the first place the godparent who belongs to the Church in which the child is baptized

Implicit in the above is that a Catholic is forbidden to stand as a godparent in a non-Catholic, non-Eastern Orthodox church. However, the Catholic is not forbidden to stand as a Christian witness.

 

[Erich]

I wonder if the brother has been asked why he is not keeping to his promises to do all in his power to Baptize and raise his children in the Catholic faith?

We don’t know if the brother actually received his Bishop’s permission and the proper dispensations (all we know is that the brother could have validly Married the sister-in-law if certain conditions were met at the time). If not, then no such promise was made.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Where in Canon Law does it say a Catholic cannot be a godparent to a Methodist child, as you originally wrote? Please answer this.

Canon Law says nothing about godparents. In the section about sponsors, it seems to equate this term with godparent but such is not a given. Certainly in common parlance a ‘godparent’ is the person (unless by proxy) who stands up and witnesses with the parents the child’s baptism. In certain circumstances, these can certainly include Methodists. When it says they participate only as ‘witnesses’ of the baptism, it does not explicitly state anywhere that they are not ‘sponsors’. Failing that, since it is under the section entitled ‘sponsors’, it seems reasonable to interpret them as ‘sponsors’ as well.

However, even if this last assumption is proven to be false, the obvious intent of the original poster’s question was whether or not she could be a godparent in the ordinary sense of the word, that is leading the child to Christ. This is an emphatic ‘yes’. Perhaps you would like to define your terms since perhaps you are using the word ‘godparent’ in a different way not used by the OP. I stand by my earlier characterization of your post as misleading, unless you are honestly trying to help, but simply wrong.

Nor did I say canon law says anything about this, I referenced an Ecumenical document, which someone else actually posted. Sponsor and Godparent have very specific meaning in the Catholic understanding and it’s not just someone who witnesses a Baptism.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

We don’t know if the brother actually received his Bishop’s permission and the proper dispensations (all we know is that the brother could have validly Married the sister-in-law if certain conditions were met at the time). If not, then no such promise was made.

If a person didn’t care to validly marry in the Catholic Faith, then of course they would not care if their children are raised in the Catholic Faith or not.

 

[Erich]

Sponsor and Godparent have very specific meaning in the Catholic understanding and it’s not just someone who witnesses a Baptism.

Found what I was looking for earlier (as it turns out, the “complete table of contents” link at usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm does not include the glossary).

From the CCC Glossary:

**

**GODPARENT: **

The sponsor of one who is baptized, who assumes a responsibility to assist the newly-baptized–child or adult–on the road of Christian life (1255).**

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Found what I was looking for earlier (as it turns out, the “complete table of contents” link at usccb.org/catechism/text/index.htm does not include the glossary).

From the CCC Glossary:

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here? I looked at the line which takes you to 1255 in the Catechism which refers you to #67 in SC which references the Rite of Baptism. The Church Documents on Baptism like the Instruction on Baptism which define what the “responsibility” of Godparent is. Which a Catholic cannot fulfill for a non-Catholic Baptism, nor a non-Catholic for a Catholic Baptism.

 

[Zooey]

The problem is as the Ecumenical documents warn, we do not create unity where it does not exist by sharing Sacraments.

A Catholic of course cannot stand up and say they will help the parents raise the child Methodist.

The Methodists of course would not like it if they stood up and professed to help the parents raise the child Catholic:shrug:

Disclaimer: First of all, I am in no way saying that any Catholic should go ahead & do this, if the Catholic Church says that you should not. You need to follow the rules of your faith, not someone else’s.

OK, that said, as the Friendly Neighborhood Methodist, I need to point out something in Br Rich’s post, quoted above:
The godparents at a Methodist baptism **will not **be asked to say that they will help to raise the child as a Methodist.
They will be asked to agree to raise the child as a Christian. And since Methodists recognize Catholics as our brothers & sisters in Christ, that promise would be more than adequately fulfilled by a godparent who, in the event of need, should even himself/herself actually raise the child as Catholic.
Now, this may still not meet the requirements of the Catholic Church, and I do not want to be seen as encouraging anyone to fly in the face of the requirements for a faithful Catholic. It is very possible that inter-religious godparents may be something that Catholics are not allowed to be, in which case, the appropriate thing to do is to decline on the grounds that you are not allowed to participate.
I am just saying, that if this is the only objection, that I did want to say, that the Methodist baptismal ceremony will not require any person to make a promise that would involve raising a child specifically as Methodist.
Indeed, so far as I understand the difference, Methodist godparents’ role is closer to that of “Christian witness” than to godparent as defined by the Catholic Church.

But, please, don’t run out & do something because I said this!!
I just wanted to point out a difference in the 2 ceremonies that I did not see in Br Rich’s answer.*** Not*** foment rebellion!!:nope:

PS: All of this applies to United Methodists, my own faith tradition. I have no information about the ceremony in other churches that may fall under the broad category of “Methodist”.

 

[bbentrup]

Actually, I’m going to defer to Br. Rich on this question and retract everything I’ve said on this issue to this point.

I will point out two things. First, Fr. Serpa appears to say that a Catholic can be a sponsor in a baptism of another faith (see: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=243734&highlight=godparent), however it appears that Michelle Arnold disagrees when she has tackled this question various times. Time for a Catholic Apologist stand-off

Secondly, the church documents in this thread would do everyone a favor by using consistent language (sponsor/godparent/witness) in the various documents cited in this thread, explicitly defining the meanings and limits of each term since these all may or may not have different colloquial and canonical meanings.
Best regards, Ben