Catholic godparents to a non-Catholic niece.

[Br.Rich_SFO]

Actually, I’m going to defer to Br. Rich on this question and retract everything I’ve said on this issue to this point.

I will point out two things. First, Fr. Serpa appears to say that a Catholic can be a sponsor in a baptism of another faith (see: forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=243734&highlight=godparent), however it appears that Michelle Arnold disagrees when she has tackled this question various times. Time for a Catholic Apologist stand-off

Secondly, the church documents in this thread would do everyone a favor by using consistent language (sponsor/godparent/witness) in the various documents cited in this thread, explicitly defining the meanings and limits of each term since these all may or may not have different colloquial and canonical meanings.
Best regards, Ben

I will say that I would agree that a Catholic could be a “Christian Witness” at a Methodist Baptism. But of course they should be in company with a Methodist Godparent, who could then sponsor the child later at the Methodist confirmation, which the Catholic could not participate in. Great care should be taken however not to fill this role to show Christian unity, where unity does not yet exist.

 

[thomfra]

A non-Catholic Christian cannot be a Godparent of a child being Baptized in the Catholic Church, and the reverse is also true.

This is not my experience.

 

[FightingFat]

I think the decision is simple, you can be the open arms of the Catholic Church which welcomes everyone, or be standoffish.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

This is not my experience.

Unfortunately we do have many Catholics that are unaware of the Church documents and instructions. We have many priests and pastors that are willing to tell Catholics what-ever they want to hear because they want to be “pastoral”. I’m sure many people here don’t like me because I don’t always say what people want to hear and I’m not willing to compromise Church practices or beliefs to make people feel good. How many times do we see two Godmothers or Godfathers at Baptisms. We had one a few weeks ago that had two sets of Godparents? Go figure that one.

 

[Erich]

I’m not sure what point you are trying to make here?

The same point you tried to make, namely, that a Catholic can’t fulfill the (Catholic definition/understanding of the) role of Godparent for a non-Catholic baptism, just as a non-Catholic can’t fulfill the (Catholic definition/understanding of the) role of Godparent for a Catholic baptism.

Your first post in this thread said as much, but you gave no references to back it up. Subsequent posters disagreed with you, whereupon I posted (a) the link to the Ecumenism document (which speaks of godparents), (b) the link to the applicable Canons (which speak of sponsors), and (c) the link to the CCC (which speaks of godparents). The “missing link” in all this was something official equating godparents with sponsors rather than with “Christian witnesses” (a term which has a very precise meaning for Catholics – separate from godparent and/or sponsor – but which does not appear to have as precise a meaning for non-Catholics). In fact, as another posted pointed out, Methodist godparents’ role is closer to that of “Christian witness” than to godparent as defined by the Catholic Church.

In other words, I was agreeing with you the whole time.

 

[Br.Rich_SFO]

The same point you tried to make, namely, that a Catholic can’t fulfill the (Catholic definition/understanding of the) role of Godparent for a non-Catholic baptism, just as a non-Catholic can’t fulfill the (Catholic definition/understanding of the) role of Godparent for a Catholic baptism.

Your first post in this thread said as much, but you gave no references to back it up. Subsequent posters disagreed with you, whereupon I posted (a) the link to the Ecumenism document (which speaks of godparents), (b) the link to the applicable Canons (which speak of sponsors), and (c) the link to the CCC (which speaks of godparents). The “missing link” in all this was something official equating godparents with sponsors rather than with “Christian witnesses” (a term which has a very precise meaning for Catholics – separate from godparent and/or sponsor – but which does not appear to have as precise a meaning for non-Catholics). In fact, as another posted pointed out, Methodist godparents’ role is closer to that of “Christian witness” than to godparent as defined by the Catholic Church.

In other words, I was agreeing with you the whole time.

I apologize I read the link but it lead from one reference to another to another. I also think that may be why many Catholics cannot figure out exactly what the Church is saying.

 

[Erich]

I apologize I read the link but it lead from one reference to another to another.

No harm, no foul!

I also think that may be why many Catholics cannot figure out exactly what the Church is saying.

Again, I agree!

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I apologize I read the link but it lead from one reference to another to another. I also think that may be why many Catholics cannot figure out exactly what the Church is saying.

It would be nice if there was some canon law that required future canon laws to be written at a level that allowed normal people to figure them out! LOL!

 

[FrDavid96]

Time to chime in here.

It is impossible for a non-Catholic (other than Orthodox) to be a Godparent to a Catholic child.

Unfortunately, many Catholics try to apply this word to the official witness of the baptism, but in cases like this, the parents are being dishonest by telling the witness that he is a “Godparent”.

The Church has a long-standing history of equating the words Godparent and Sponsor. They are interchangeable terms (in Baptism). The Latin words “sponsi” and “patrini” have been used interchangeably for centuries. Many Catholic baptismal registers and certificates still use the older word “patrini” (which means “little parents”). Older registers in fact tended more towards using the word “patrini.” Post-Vatican II language tends more towards the use of “sponsor” to better describe the actual responsibilities of Godparents. But the fact remains that Godparent and sponsor mean exactly the same thing.

There is a problem in the US that many Catholics, even those preparing parents for baptism inform the parents that “they can have a non-catholic Godparent, so long as they have a Catholic Godparent too.” This is not true. It is a misunderstanding (and I would say an outright lie) that has been perpetuated by the fact that it has been repeated so often.

At no point whatsoever does the Church equate the term “Christian witness” with either the words Godparent or sponsor.

The role of a witness is to observe what happens and to be prepared to give testimony to the fact that the baptism occured, should there be some doubt at a later time. This is the very definition of the word. There is no other role or function of a witness beyond this.

 

[Phemie]

Time to chime in here.

It is impossible for a non-Catholic (other than Orthodox) to be a Godparent to a Catholic child.

Unfortunately, many Catholics try to apply this word to the official witness of the baptism, but in cases like this, the parents are being dishonest by telling the witness that he is a “Godparent”.

Problem is that priests have done a lousy job of explaining this, if they’ve bothered at all. It was never mentioned when we asked my BIL (member of the United Church) to be ‘godfather’ to our youngest. We asked “Can we have one godparent who is non-Catholic?” and the answer was “Yes.” No attempt to teach anything.

I go to great lengths to explain this in baptismal preparation and I’m fighting decades of having Pentecostals (rarely baptized in this town) & Salvation Army ‘godparents’ and, in at least a few cases, of both ‘godparents’ being non-Catholic because the priest didn’t bother to ask about the chosen godparents’ religion.

 

[Crazy_Diamond]

I go to great lengths to explain this in baptismal preparation and I’m fighting decades of having Pentecostals (rarely baptized in this town) & Salvation Army ‘godparents’ and, in at least a few cases, of both ‘godparents’ being non-Catholic because the priest didn’t bother to ask about the chosen godparents’ religion.

I had a funny moment a few years ago when my brother told me he was going to be a godparent to the baby of his Catholic girlfiend’s friends. I explained very seriously that according to Vatican teaching a non-Catholic couldn’t technically be the godfather. It turned out he had joined the Catholic church a year earlier, and never told me in all our conversations! You know what they say about assumptions…

 

[happymommy]

Even though your brother could have validly Married your sister-in-law in a Methodist church with a Methodist minister officiating, with his Bishops permission and the proper dispensations. A non-Catholic Christian cannot be a Godparent of a child being Baptized in the Catholic Church, and the reverse is also true. A Catholic cannot be a Godparent of a child being Baptized in a non-Catholic Christian Community. Christianity is still divided, when the Methodists plan to return to Catholic union is still unclear.

Actually a non Catholic can be a God parent of a Catholic chlid. My sister in law is our sons God mother. They only require one of the God parents to be Catholic. My SIL just had to have a letter written by her minister saying she was a good standing member of their church.

 

[happymommy]

Actually a non Catholic can be a God parent of a Catholic chlid. My sister in law is our sons God mother. They only require one of the God parents to be Catholic. My SIL just had to have a letter written by her minister saying she was a good standing member of their church.

And we spoke to our Monsignor before we asked her, so that if she were not allowed we could ask someone else. He said it was fine as long one of the Godparents was a confirmed Catholic in good standing with the Chruch.

 

[FrDavid96]

And we spoke to our Monsignor before we asked her, so that if she were not allowed we could ask someone else. He said it was fine as long one of the Godparents was a confirmed Catholic in good standing with the Chruch.

Happy, what you described just isn’t possible. A Protestant may be a witness but never a Godparent.
What he was realy saying is that you can have one Godparent and one non-Godparent-witness.

It is impossible for someone who is Protestant to be a Godparent/Sponsor because that means that the person is sponsoring the child to become a member of the Church. One who is not a member of the Church cannot bring a new member into the Church.

 

[happymommy]

Happy, what you described just isn’t possible. A Protestant may be a witness but never a Godparent.
What he was realy saying is that you can have one Godparent and one non-Godparent-witness.

It is impossible for someone who is Protestant to be a Godparent/Sponsor because that means that the person is sponsoring the child to become a member of the Church. One who is not a member of the Church cannot bring a new member into the Church.

I’m sure you are right that she is, as far as the church record goes, a witness, but we still call her his Godmother. In our hearts that is what she is. I’m not going to tell him, this is your Godfather and your non-Catholic Christian witness. Even though she is not Catholic, she is very supportive of all of our children in their faith and has even stepped up to the role of “godmother” for our daughter, because her Catholic Godmother has chosen a lifestyle in the past few years that is not in agreement with the church and we have stopped all contact with her. Is it possible to get her removed as our daughters Godmother or are we better off leaving it alone and keeping it a private matter?

 

[FrDavid96]

I’m sure you are right that she is, as far as the church record goes, a witness, but we still call her his Godmother. In our hearts that is what she is. I’m not going to tell him, this is your Godfather and your non-Catholic Christian witness. Even though she is not Catholic, she is very supportive of all of our children in their faith and has even stepped up to the role of “godmother” for our daughter, because her Catholic Godmother has chosen a lifestyle in the past few years that is not in agreement with the church and we have stopped all contact with her. Is it possible to get her removed as our daughters Godmother or are we better off leaving it alone and keeping it a private matter?

As for your final question, that part can’t be changed, because the baptismal record is a recording of an event in the past. When a Godparent dies, we don’t go back to the records and supply a new one, do we? Not to be flip, but that simply illustrates the point that a Godparent is not someone who can be replaced in the church records when the “need” arises.

 

[happymommy]

As for your final question, that part can’t be changed, because the baptismal record is a recording of an event in the past. When a Godparent dies, we don’t go back to the records and supply a new one, do we? Not to be flip, but that simply illustrates the point that a Godparent is not someone who can be replaced in the church records when the “need” arises.

I understand. I wouldn’t expect them to change anything, esp. due to a death of a Godparent. I was not trying to be flippent about it and just switch Godparents whenever. She was someone who was a very big part of our lives and never thought she would change the way she has. We have given a lot of thought to the God parents for all of our children. It’s not something we take lightly and it’s not just about that special day. We expect them to be a part of their lives forever and help them with their faith. This situation is sad and I won’t derail this thread with the details. I was just asking. I feel badly for our daughter that she doesn’t really have a Godmother anymore. As I said my sister in law has stepped up and has tried to fill that void, but it’s not the same. Thank you for answering my question.

 

[FrDavid96]

I understand. I wouldn’t expect them to change anything, esp. due to a death of a Godparent. I was not trying to be flippent about it and just switch Godparents whenever. She was someone who was a very big part of our lives and never thought she would change the way she has. We have given a lot of thought to the God parents for all of our children. It’s not something we take lightly and it’s not just about that special day. We expect them to be a part of their lives forever and help them with their faith. This situation is sad and I won’t derail this thread with the details. I was just asking. I feel badly for our daughter that she doesn’t really have a Godmother anymore. As I said my sister in law has stepped up and has tried to fill that void, but it’s not the same. Thank you for answering my question.

When I said “not to be flip” I meant not to be disrespectful about the death of a Godparent.

 

[thomfra]

Happy, what you described just isn’t possible. A Protestant may be a witness but never a Godparent.

Sorry. You are wrong. Check your facts.

 

[Phemie]

Sorry. You are wrong. Check your facts.

No Fr. is right, Canon Law is clear on that point regardless of what you may have been told or seen:

Can. 874 §1. To be permitted to take on the function of sponsor a person must:

1/ be designated by the one to be baptized, by the parents or the person who takes their place, or in their absence by the pastor or minister and have the aptitude and intention of fulfilling this function;

2/ have completed the sixteenth year of age, unless the diocesan bishop has established another age, or the pastor or minister has granted an exception for a just cause;

3/ be a Catholic who has been confirmed and has already received the most holy sacrament of the Eucharist and who leads a life of faith in keeping with the function to be taken on;

4/ not be bound by any canonical penalty legitimately imposed or declared;

5/ not be the father or mother of the one to be baptized.

§2. A baptized person who belongs to a non-Catholic ecclesial community is not to participate except together with a Catholic sponsor and then only as a witness of the baptism.

It’s too bad that for years parents who’ve asked have not had it explained. They were just told “No problem, as long as you’ve got 1 who’s a Catholic” but it was never explained that the two wouldn’t be there in the same capacity.