Catholic Grandma vs Pagan Grandma

[Dymphna82]

Yeah, a few years ago, I went to an Asatru meetup group just to meet some folk. I sat in a bar with 5 Theodish(which is another Norse) and only 1 person was liberal. I found it refreshing from the general view of the Wiccan community that a Pagan simply cannot be a Conservative. I find that view as ignorant as people like Cher who say she can’t understand why minorities, homosexuals and people of other religions would vote Republican.

History shows that many Pagan paths came from conservative cultures.

Oh and, there’s one Theodish from that group who is a Republican councilman in NYC, though I haven’t met him.

 

[StTommyMore]

I am acquainted with an Asatru family…I’m not friends with them by any stretch of the imagination…I met them through my Wiccan friends with whom I’m very close.

From what I understand the Asatru are very family oriented…“clan” oriented so to speak. Family and children are a huge part of their lives and faith.

Then they aren’t being faithful to the precepts of the Norse religion. The Norse were a brutally murderous people. Personal insults were met with death, even by children.

 

[gurneyhalleck1]

And a fascination in the 80’s too! Remember Ozzy’s classic “Mr. Crowley?”

There was a certain fascination with Crowley among the rock crowd in the 60s and 70s. Being associated with him in some way was a quick bit of street cred for British artists. I recall he is on the sgt. pepper cover and page aspired to live like him for a time. I think the house is called Boleskine or something to that effect. Probably a very nice place. Crowley was seriously wealthy for the first part of his life, though he burned through money like a Kuwaiti prince.

 

[Noesis]

Then they aren’t being faithful to the precepts of the Norse religion.

Somehow, I highly doubt that you’ve taken the time to research this particular subject.

If I am wrong, then I suppose it is fair to think that I could be easily proven wrong; namely, you could describe elements of ancient ‘Norse religion’ which strongly imply that it is worthwhile to eschew family ties. I think it would also be fair for you to provide references for such an interpretation, so that I and others would be able to assess them for ourselves, and see whether or not different conclusions could be drawn.

But if you are willing to do these things, then please note that I am asking you for a defence of a claim you’ve made with regard to Norse religion; and that referencing a cultural perspective which does not clearly imply evidence of connection to such religion, will be absolutely irrelevant to your case.

 

[Noesis]

This is just nonsense. The Coligny calendar, an archeological find from Celtic Gaul of approx. 100 bce…

What sources are you using to support this dating? What information I have found online about this ‘calendar’, points to a date of approximately the turn of the first century of the CE.

I give you the benefit of the doubt, and I assume that you have gathered your information from some scholarly work I am not aware of, and perhaps would find difficult to access without first paying a visit to my local university library. Nonetheless, perhaps you could expand upon your claim.

But this ‘calendar’ is precisely the sort of thing which can act as a symbol for the great difficulty of endeavoring to fathom the Celtic world-vision; it is utterly fragmentary, and it is not even clear as to what, exactly, the fragments were attempting to describe.

 

[StTommyMore]

Somehow, I highly doubt that you’ve taken the time to research this particular subject.

If I am wrong, then I suppose it is fair to think that I could be easily proven wrong; namely, you could describe elements of ancient ‘Norse religion’ which strongly imply that it is worthwhile to eschew family ties. I think it would also be fair for you to provide references for such an interpretation, so that I and others would be able to assess them for ourselves, and see whether or not different conclusions could be drawn.

But if you are willing to do these things, then please note that I am asking you for a defence of a claim you’ve made with regard to Norse religion; and that referencing a cultural perspective which does not clearly imply evidence of connection to such religion, will be absolutely irrelevant to your case.

Actually I did a paper on Ragnarök as an usergrad. A religion, particularly a false religion such as the Norse mythos, is a product of its culture. The Norse culture was violent and murderous, as were the gods they worshiped.

 

[kenofken]

Actually I did a paper on Ragnarök as an usergrad. A religion, particularly a false religion such as the Norse mythos, is a product of its culture. The Norse culture was violent and murderous, as were the gods they worshiped.

The Norse were violent and murderous, as opposed to who? The Picts, the Saxons, Huns? The Romans? Which religion/civilization committed racial and religious genocide on three continents since the 15th Century (hint, it wasn’t Nordic pagans)?

In an earlier reference, you mention the fact that there were killings over insults to a person’s honor in the Nordic cultures. This is hardly unique to them, and in fact was accepted practice in most Western cultures until the very end of the 19th Century. I’m not sure we’re better off having lost that tradition. Men no longer aspire to honor or to preserve the currency that one’s word once held. Today it’s all about the weasel game and the lawyers way out of things. Violent as they were, in the old days, a man’s family name and word meant more than a written contract does today.

As to murderous gods, how many cities and civilizations did your God slaughter in a fit of pique in the Old Testament? It would take me some time to tabulate.

 

[kenofken]

Somehow, I highly doubt that you’ve taken the time to research this particular subject.

If I am wrong, then I suppose it is fair to think that I could be easily proven wrong; namely, you could describe elements of ancient ‘Norse religion’ which strongly imply that it is worthwhile to eschew family ties. I think it would also be fair for you to provide references for such an interpretation, so that I and others would be able to assess them for ourselves, and see whether or not different conclusions could be drawn.

But if you are willing to do these things, then please note that I am asking you for a defence of a claim you’ve made with regard to Norse religion; and that referencing a cultural perspective which does not clearly imply evidence of connection to such religion, will be absolutely irrelevant to your case.

He hasn’t taken the time to research ANY subject relative to the pagan traditions he pronounces judgment upon. As with 99% of the “occult experts” on this site, he simply knows we are “evil” and so therefore anything bad they wish to believe about us is therefore true. Saying that one “wrote a paper in undergrad” is a thin set of credentials to make one an expert on a subject which spans many centuries. I could bang out five or ten pages citing one or two sources unfavorable to Christianity. Would I then be qualified as a historian or Catholic theologion?

 

[StTommyMore]

He hasn’t taken the time to research ANY subject relative to the pagan traditions he pronounces judgment upon. As with 99% of the “occult experts” on this site, he simply knows we are “evil” and so therefore anything bad they wish to believe about us is therefore true. Saying that one “wrote a paper in undergrad” is a thin set of credentials to make one an expert on a subject which spans many centuries. I could bang out five or ten pages citing one or two sources unfavorable to Christianity. Would I then be qualified as a historian or Catholic theologion?

I never claimed to be an “expert” but I know that the Norse culture was brutally violent, and has no value to civilized individuals whatsoever.

On another note, you know nothing about me. You do not know who I am. You have never met me.How can you possibly know what I have and have not researched? I have read Th Prose Edda. I have read several academic books about Norse culture. Including things like children being taught to kill in recompense for an insult during play. Is a culture based on piracy to be honored? Not hardly.

 

[Dymphna82]

Then they aren’t being faithful to the precepts of the Norse religion. The Norse were a brutally murderous people. Personal insults were met with death, even by children.

Now I’m sure you’re goading.

And ken:

As with 99% of the “occult experts” on this site, he simply knows we are “evil” and so therefore anything bad they wish to believe about us is therefore true.

I have 20 years of occult under my belt and 13 years of Wicca. That said…I’m certain that most people don’t consciously pray to Satan(unless they want to), and most are people who try to live decent honorable lives.

But Paganism takes people away from the one true God, and that leaves people more open to the Devil’s influences and oppression.

That is one thing I love about Catholicism, the true religion of God. Any other church would tell me I was not Christian before and need to be baptized all over again. I go to confession and all I’m told is that I sinned and my sins are forgiven. I have a fresh start. I’m glad the friar did not recoil when hearing what I had to say and call me evil. I’m glad that the friar prayed for my absolution. I’m glad my friar was not StTommy over here.

 

[Noesis]

He hasn’t taken the time to research ANY subject relative to the pagan traditions he pronounces judgment upon. As with 99% of the “occult experts” on this site, he simply knows we are “evil” and so therefore anything bad they wish to believe about us is therefore true.

He makes valid points about Norse culture, even if his original assertion with regard to the eschewing of family ties, certainly cannot be demonstrated. But he forgets that his view of that particular society, has utterly been biased by the way in which its history has been preserved: as a remnant of the way in which it was seen by people outside of it, rather than by people who belonged to it. As you rightly point out, such a bias of perspective will often yield unsatisfactory insights of truth.

I don’t know whether or not people perceive you as being ‘evil’, but I certainly can see that a certain Christian world-vision, could allow people to arrive at that opinion. This, afterall, is the purpose of this thread: how to stop the spreading of evil. But since we are speaking of violence, this Christian world-vision of the evil of all things which contradict is, is the essence of what has, throughout history, consistently sparked violence to arise as a result. The Vikings may have been pirates, and they may have been blown by the winds of such piracy even to the New World. But yet, they did not destroy that world, and set up a new one in its place, because they saw it as being too inferior without their laws of perception.

The violence of the Norse was never imperialistic, and neither did it destroy life in the name of its doctrines, its theistic state, and its divine mandate of power.

 

[Taurks]

The Norse were violent and murderous, as opposed to who? The Picts, the Saxons, Huns? The Romans? Which religion/civilization committed racial and religious genocide on three continents since the 15th Century (hint, it wasn’t Nordic pagans)?

No religion commits genocide. Men did for power and wealth - things that Jesus had a very clear opinion of. I also used to hate Catholicism for what the Conquistadors did - but their religion and their actions are two very different things.

 

[StTommyMore]

Now I’m sure you’re goading.

And ken:

I have 20 years of occult under my belt and 13 years of Wicca. That said…I’m certain that most people don’t consciously pray to Satan(unless they want to), and most are people who try to live decent honorable lives.

But Paganism takes people away from the one true God, and that leaves people more open to the Devil’s influences and oppression.

That is one thing I love about Catholicism, the true religion of God. Any other church would tell me I was not Christian before and need to be baptized all over again. I go to confession and all I’m told is that I sinned and my sins are forgiven. I have a fresh start. I’m glad the friar did not recoil when hearing what I had to say and call me evil. I’m glad that the friar prayed for my absolution. I’m glad my friar was not StTommy over here.

Let me clue you in: this isn’t a confessional. There is a time for saying “Go in peace, your sins are forgiven” but that does not mean that sin should not be called sin. What kind of lilly-livered mamby-pamby kind of faith do you espouse? We are all called to holiness, and that includes a sound rejection of paganism with all of its perversion of Truth.

 

[Noesis]

We are all called to holiness, and that includes a sound rejection of paganism with all of its perversion of Truth.

Might such a rejection also be patient and loving? Is not the defense of reason something that a man is capable of without resorting to the anger of hatred? Only wisdom can decide such questions, and it is only wisdom that can select the expression of itself that can do the greatest good, rather than merely causing discord. The validity of a world-view does not imply that a person who subscribes to it, is also by default wise.

 

[StTommyMore]

Might such a rejection also be patient and loving? Is not the defense of reason something that a man is capable of without resorting to the anger of hatred? Only wisdom can decide such questions, and it is only wisdom that can select the expression of itself that can do the greatest good, rather than merely causing discord. The validity of a world-view does not imply that a person who subscribes to it, is also by default wise.

I have not responded with anger or hatred. I simply have stated that the Norse paganism was absolutely without merit.

 

[Noesis]

…their religion and their actions are two very different things.

There are many aspects of the conquest and destruction of the New World, which I feel are certainly alien to some facets of Christian doctrine. But we should also admit that the exclusivity of the Christian world-view, can logically lead to very dark assumptions about the nature of non-Christian societies, individuals, and the religious or non-religious bonds which unite them.

The ‘correct’ interpretation of exclusivity, is one which Christians have historically differed with regard to; but there is no question that it has led to many errors. Likewise, exclusivity has a great deal to say, theologically, about the nature of omniscient God, and it leads to interesting questions about intent. Some might reason that such a God, in creating a single doctrine to which all must bend their knee, created circumstances which arrived at great disaster on the earth; and that this is a contradiction in our theology of the nature of God.

All of this, ultimately, is a form of the old argument from evil; and I find it difficult to both find it uncompelling, and yet adhere to the conscience of my reason.

 

[Noesis]

I have not responded with anger or hatred.

Then perhaps it is best to apologise to Dymphna for communicating something which very rightly might be construed in a very different way from your intent.

 

[kenofken]

No religion commits genocide. Men did for power and wealth - things that Jesus had a very clear opinion of. I also used to hate Catholicism for what the Conquistadors did - but their religion and their actions are two very different things.

I don’t know that actions can be so cleanly divorced from ideology and religion. The honorable St. TommyMore holds that the evil committed by men in Norse cultures in the dark ages flowed directly and primarily from their religion(although a religion which must be considered “without merit” because a 20th Century guy who wrote a paper about them has rendered judgment).

 

[Publisher]

Then they aren’t being faithful to the precepts of the Norse religion. The Norse were a brutally murderous people. Personal insults were met with death, even by children.

Well…since I cannot read their hearts…I don’t know. They seem to be very serious…they seem to be seeking to express their faith in more modern terms and behaviour.

I think they are seeking to live in the modern world just as most churches are…just as the established church of the region no longer drags people out of their homes and tries them for heresy or witchcraft then torture, behead or burn the “guilty”…so too I don’t think the “blood debt” of personal insult is followed…I’m sure those who accused them of not being faithful to there faith are grateful for that.

 

[Thomas_Casey]

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