Catholic Health Association Endorses Pro-Abortion Senate Health Care Bill

[catharina]

That was my point from the beginning: I can say and I can “choose”. Just like you can. Why it annoys you is beyond me, but that’s okay. If one wants to spend all their energy on being annoyed, then one can be annoyed all day

As created souls we receive both intellect and will.
It is our DUTY to hold an informed conscience.
In matter of faith and morals, we are to be informed by grace and teaching.

Conscience (free will, choice) does not grant an unbridled liberty to “choose.”

 

[Rence]

As created souls we receive both intellect and will.
It is our DUTY to hold an informed conscience.
In matter of faith and morals, we are to be informed by grace and teaching.

Conscience (free will, choice) does not grant an unbridled liberty to “choose.”

Ok, well, at this point I think your goal is to just be argumentative, and congratulations, you accomplished it But I really don’t want to be argumentative. I simply cited the part of the Heathcare Bill that deals with abortion and I as I can read, and understand, it does not appear to be promoting abortion, nor is it using tax payer dollars to pay for abortion outside federal law, therefore as a US citizen, I find it more than accetable and I hope the bill passes. I really haven’t found anything in it that I hate, but I’ll keep reading it, it’s pretty long.

Having an informed conscience doesn’t mean blindly following like sheep. It means doing one’s homework and making one’s decisions based on what one found and what one’s conscience dictates. With all due respect, because it’s not my intention to be nasty, but it’s NOT my problem, if one has a problem with the fact that some people research and then make choices based on that reasearch. It’s that person’s problem. I hope you find peace with yourself so that you’re not so angry anymore. It’s really not good for you to be so angry all the time worrying about what other people do. You can really make a difference in your part of the world by worrying about what you do.

 

[catharina]

Ok, well, at this point I think your goal is to just be argumentative, and congratulations, you accomplished it But I really don’t want to be argumentative. I simply cited the part of the Heathcare Bill that deals with abortion and I as I can read, and understand, it does not appear to be promoting abortion, nor is it using tax payer dollars to pay for abortion outside federal law, therefore as a US citizen, I find it more than accetable and I hope the bill passes. I really haven’t found anything in it that I hate, but I’ll keep reading it, it’s pretty long.

Having an informed conscience doesn’t mean blindly following like sheep. It means doing one’s homework and making one’s decisions based on what one found and what one’s conscience dictates. With all due respect, because it’s not my intention to be nasty, but it’s NOT my problem, if one has a problem with the fact that some people research and then make choices based on that reasearch. It’s that person’s problem. I hope you find peace with yourself so that you’re not so angry anymore. It’s really not good for you to be so angry all the time worrying about what other people do. You can really make a difference in your part of the world by worrying about what you do.

I’m usually extraordinarily peaceful Yet when I hear of Catholics who promote disagreement reagrding pro-life teachings I MUST speak up. Abortion policies are the “problem” of all. To have a healthy conscience, one must keep it informed and in compliance with the teachings of the Church. That is simple theology and has nothing to do with one’s preferences and desires. When the bishops bestir themselves to speak -repeatedly - on an issue in the political arena, the we are called to hear them and to be obedient. Perhaps there is a significant difference in our ages. I’m 64 yrs old and have been active in pro-life work for more than 40 years. I’m definitely old enough to know that it’s best for Catholics to rely on the bishops’ research and their teachings.

I have no desire to be argumentative. It simply overwhelms me when I find Catholics who seem to believe they are immune to acting in defense of life. Hope you can understand that. (You are Catholic before and above your US citizenship. Me too.)

 

[catharina]

Ok, well, at this point I think your goal is to just be argumentative, and congratulations, you accomplished it But I really don’t want to be argumentative. I simply cited the part of the Heathcare Bill that deals with abortion and I as I can read, and understand, it does not appear to be promoting abortion, nor is it using tax payer dollars to pay for abortion outside federal law, therefore as a US citizen, I find it more than accetable and I hope the bill passes. I really haven’t found anything in it that I hate, but I’ll keep reading it, it’s pretty long.

Having an informed conscience doesn’t mean blindly following like sheep. It means doing one’s homework and making one’s decisions based on what one found and what one’s conscience dictates. With all due respect, because it’s not my intention to be nasty, but it’s NOT my problem, if one has a problem with the fact that some people research and then make choices based on that reasearch. It’s that person’s problem. I hope you find peace with yourself so that you’re not so angry anymore. It’s really not good for you to be so angry all the time worrying about what other people do. You can really make a difference in your part of the world by worrying about what you do.

Indeed Our Lord called us sheep. He told Peter, ‘feed my lambs, feed my sheep.’

Christ Himself is known as the Lamb of God.

As for “homework” we first and last study the teachings of the Church!

 

[MSGirl]

Indeed Our Lord called us sheep. He told Peter, ‘feed my lambs, feed my sheep.’

Christ Himself is known as the Lamb of God.

As for “homework” we first and last study the teachings of the Church!

Catherina, did you even bother to read to read the portion of bill that Rence posted? Are Catholics not supposed to have a brain? I believe the reason people are against this health care plan is because of all the misrepresenations that are out there. This is not socialized medicine and there are no death panels. This is simply the republican party being against anything that Obama is for.

 

[Rence]

Catherina, did you even bother to read to read the portion of bill that Rence posted? Are Catholics not supposed to have a brain? I believe the reason people are against this health care plan is because of all the misrepresenations that are out there. This is not socialized medicine and there are no death panels. This is simply the republican party being against anything that Obama is for.

There are a lot of misrepresentations. That’s why I took the time to look for and download the 1016 page document myself and look up stuff I found questionable. And BECAUSE it is so big, I wanted someone to confirm what I found, or site where there is a contradiction.

But the portion I sited spoke for itself and I feel it is unfair (and untruthful) to continue calling this bill the Pro-Abortion Bill and other titles, implying that it encourages and promotes abortion. Clearly this bill does not. And honestly I have no unearthly clue what the motivations are to deny people who SO NEED insurance because they are hung up on those few paragraphs. This bill isn’t going to change the law on abortion, or change current access to abortion. So if it doesn’t pass, there will be different reasons why it will not pass other than this nonsense about abortion.

But I do thank this forum for all the information on where to send our letters

And to answer the first part of your post: some people honestly believe we should be following blindly without thinking for ourselves or bothering to do our homework. And that’s okay, I get that. But I have no unearthly clue why they feel such an intense drive to supress others in their drive to think for themselves. I don’t know where it comes from.

 

[catharina]

Catherina, did you even bother to read to read the portion of bill that Rence posted? Are Catholics not supposed to have a brain? I believe the reason people are against this health care plan is because of all the misrepresenations that are out there. This is not socialized medicine and there are no death panels. This is simply the republican party being against anything that Obama is for.

MS girl, I rely on the bishops to do adequate research regarding something of the magnitude of issues of healthcare. I look to them for leadership based on their grace of office (as spiritual leaders) and their education, wisdom and experience. I do not hold as “equal” any other opinions. That the bishops chose to speak againt the erroneous view of the ‘catholic hospital assn’ is more than sufficient for me.

 

[MSGirl]

MS girl, I rely on the bishops to do adequate research regarding something of the magnitude of issues of healthcare. I look to them for leadership based on their grace of office (as spiritual leaders) and their education, wisdom and experience. I do not hold as “equal” any other opinions. That the bishops chose to speak againt the erroneous view of the ‘catholic hospital assn’ is more than sufficient for me.

Do the bishops speak without error in all matters? I could be wrong, but I believe there are some bishops that are in favor of the plan.

 

[catharina]

Do the bishops speak without error in all matters? I could be wrong, but I believe there are some bishops that are in favor of the plan.

Normative (regular) teachings of the Magesterium are to be accepted.
Personally, I know of no Catholic bishop who supports obamacare.
The bishops’ structural authority in the US is the USCCB and it most clearly rejects obamacare.

 

[Mark77]

Catherina, did you even bother to read to read the portion of bill that Rence posted? Are Catholics not supposed to have a brain? I believe the reason people are against this health care plan is because of all the misrepresenations that are out there. This is not socialized medicine and there are no death panels. This is simply the republican party being against anything that Obama is for.

MS Girl & Rence,

Catharine has it exactly correct. If in doubt, err on the side of the Bishops who have been pushing for Health care reform for many years & would surely support it if simple language like the Stupak amendment banning abortion funding were truly in these massive, 2000 plus page, intentionally deceptive & vague bills written by attorneys who are paid to parse words & obfuscate the Truth!

If this bill does so much good, all they had to do was strip out the abortion funding & it would have passed last fall.

If you are absolutely sure that the legalese in these bills written by politicians who are bought & paid for by Planned Parenthood & other abortion profiteers then go ahead & support the bill.

As Catholic’s you should never be uncharitable to others by using derogatory & condescending statements like "some people honestly believe we should be following blindly without thinking for ourselves or bothering to do our homework

**Sounds desperate! Calling people “blind followers & ignorant, lazy…”…Next you’ll be saying “people will be denied care & will have more abortions without this bill”, Oh, you did say that!
**
Rence, you said; **“I have looked at what the Bishops said. And they have the right to their view as well as I do. Unless there is clear evidence that the bill supports abortion, which it doesn’t, it IS propaganda.” **

i’m so glad that so many catholics like you & Nancy Pelosi & Joe Biden & Patrick Kennedy are so much more intelligent & well informed than our Bishops. While our Bishops are not perfect, they are surely far better than our politicians when it comes to Church Teaching on key issues like abortion & the Right to Life!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[MSGirl]

Do the bishops speak without error in all matters? I could be wrong, but I believe there are some bishops that are in favor of the plan.

Normative (regular) teachings of the Magesterium are to be accepted.
Personally, I know of no Catholic bishop who supports obamacare.
The bishops’ structural authority in the US is the USCCB and it most clearly rejects obamacare.

If the abortion clause was not included in the Health Care bill would you support it then? Do you agree with the Bishops on thier immigration policies?

 

[Rence]

MS Girl & Rence,
Catharine has it exactly correct. If in doubt, err on the side of the Bishops who have been pushing for Health care reform for many years & would surely support it if simple language like the Stupak amendment banning abortion funding were truly in these massive, 2000 plus page, intentionally deceptive & vague bills written by attorneys who are paid to parse words & obfuscate the Truth!
**
But I’m not in doubt I read what I read, and cited it here. If anyone ELSE is in doubt, cite another place that proves otherwise.**

If this bill does so much good, all they had to do was strip out the abortion funding & it would have passed last fall.

What abortion funding? If you read the quote, the taxpayors aren’t funding abortion, per federal law.If they buy a supplement, that is their business and their choice, just like now, without the bill. The bill doesn’t change funding for abortion.

If you are absolutely sure that the legalese in these bills written by politicians who are bought & paid for by Planned Parenthood & other abortion profiteers then go ahead & support the bill.

As Catholic’s you should never be uncharitable to others by using derogatory & condescending statements like "some people honestly believe we should be following blindly without thinking for ourselves or bothering to do our homework

**Wow, how onesided was THAT. Are you reading all these posts, or did you zero in on mine? With all due respect, why don’t you follow your own advice, because that’s exactly what catarina said to me. Her words, not mine:
"Indeed Our Lord called us sheep. He told Peter, ‘feed my lambs, feed my sheep.’
Christ Himself is known as the Lamb of God.
As for “homework” we first and last study the teachings of the Church! "
and implied, in all her posts in response to mine, that I had no business to research on my own and should just take the Bishops’ word at face value no matter what my research has shown. That’s not an uncharitable claim, that’s what she said. Sorry if that offends you, or anyone else. **

Sounds desperate! Calling people “blind followers & ignorant, lazy…”…Next you’ll be saying “people will be denied care & will have more abortions without this bill”, Oh, you did say that!

I didn’t call anyone blind followers, and ignorant and lazy. All my posts pertained to me.
And OH, I didn’t say that. Where did I say that people will have more abortions without the bill. I think you’re one confused reader.

Rence, you said; **“I have looked at what the Bishops said. And they have the right to their view as well as I do. Unless there is clear evidence that the bill supports abortion, which it doesn’t, it IS propaganda.” **
i’m so glad that so many catholics like you & Nancy Pelosi & Joe Biden & Patrick Kennedy are so much more intelligent & well informed than our Bishops. While our Bishops are not perfect, they are surely far better than our politicians when it comes to Church Teaching on key issues like abortion & the Right to Life!

Keep in mind that our policiticians (esp Nancy Pelosi) are still in good standing with the Church, even after her meeting with the Pope. And while I have never pretended to know everything, I have read parts of the Bill pertaining to abortion, and have posted what I found. Why should I question what I have read first hand? If I ask a question, do I not deserve an answer? As quoted here, the Bishops are calling the bill a pro-abortion bill, and clearly that’s not what it is. Sorry.

mark

 

[catharina]

Her [Catharina’s] words, not mine:
"Indeed Our Lord called us sheep. He told Peter, ‘feed my lambs, feed my sheep.’
Christ Himself is known as the Lamb of God.
As for “homework” we first and last study the teachings of the Church! "

and implied, in all her posts in response to mine, that I had no business to research on my own and should just take the Bishops’ word at face value no matter what my research has shown. That’s not an uncharitable claim, that’s what she said. Sorry if that offends you, or anyone else.

Never did I imply such a thing. In fact I stated the exact opposite.
I stated the fact that regardless of our reams of personal research,
“we are first and last to study the teachings of the Church.”

We are not to draw conclusions that are oppositional to Church teaching based on our own “research” and preference. Such a practice of “picking and choosing” speaks of relativistic actions.

 

[Rence]

Never did I imply such a thing. In fact I stated the exact opposite.
I stated the fact that regardless of our reams of personal research,
“we are first and last to study the teachings of the Church.”

We are not to draw conclusions that are oppositional to Church teaching based on our own “research” and preference. Such a practice of “picking and choosing” speaks of relativistic actions.

How exactly is that not what I said?

I said that I read the Health Reform Bill document itself and found it NOT to be in support of abortion, and NOT to be using taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions. It’s there in black and white. I even quoted in the document where I found it. You say, I should disregard what I read in the Heath Reform Bill document itself because “we are not to draw conclusions that are oppositional to Church teaching based on our own reseach”…so please enlighten me: how is it false when I say: Catarine implied, in all her posts in response to mine, that I had no business to research on my own and should just take the Bishops’ word at face value no matter what my research has shown. That’s not an uncharitable claim, that’s what she said."

I don’t know where the breakdown in communication is between you and me, and I’m sorry that there is such a breakdown, but the fact of the matter is, we are both saying the same thing. The only difference is, you don’t like what I am saying. For some reason, you take offense to my saying of it. Yet, that’s exactly what YOU are saying

Why all this confusion? Why all this silliness? If you want to not support the Bill, don’t. If you want to support the bill, do. It’s not going to make you or me any more right or wrong. You got your information from whereever you got your information, and that should drive your decision making. I got my information (and cited it), from the actual bill itself, and that WILL drive my decision making. There is NO reason for all this drama.

 

[catharina]

How exactly is that not what I said?

I said that I read the Health Reform Bill document itself and found it NOT to be in support of abortion, and NOT to be using taxpayer dollars to pay for abortions. It’s there in black and white. I even quoted in the document where I found it. You say, I should disregard what I read in the Heath Reform Bill document itself because “we are not to draw conclusions that are oppositional to Church teaching based on our own reseach”…so please enlighten me: how is it false when I say: Catarine implied, in all her posts in response to mine, that I had no business to research on my own and should just take the Bishops’ word at face value no matter what my research has shown. That’s not an uncharitable claim, that’s what she said."

I don’t know where the breakdown in communication is between you and me, and I’m sorry that there is such a breakdown, but the fact of the matter is, we are both saying the same thing. The only difference is, you don’t like what I am saying. For some reason, you take offense to my saying of it. Yet, that’s exactly what YOU are saying

Why all this confusion? Why all this silliness? If you want to not support the Bill, don’t. If you want to support the bill, do. It’s not going to make you or me any more right or wrong. You got your information from whereever you got your information, and that should drive your decision making. I got my information (and cited it), from the actual bill itself, and that WILL drive my decision making. There is NO reason for all this drama.

I repeat: Personal research is just fine for all of us.
In the end however, Catholics are to abide by Church teaching.
The bishops have spoken against obamacare more than once in recent days.
I am not confused nor do I waste my time in silliness.

It’s just a FACT that taking the advice of the bishops does indeed make me "more right.’
You claim an unkown exemption for yourself. If you can’t grasp that … oh well.

 

[Mark77]

Watch this! youtube.com/watch#!v=SJ5-ZFpoDtU&feature=related

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Mark77]

Rence,

You wrote; “Keep in mind that our policiticians (esp Nancy Pelosi) are still in good standing with the Church, even after her meeting with the Pope.”???

If you believe that someone like Nancy Pelosi, who supports & promotes abortion, the murder of innocent babies, is “still in good standing with the church”, you are surely delusional.** Just because the Pope meets with someone doesn’t mean they are in good standing with the Church. The Pope meets with Jews, Athiests, Muslims… & they are surely not in good standing with the Church!
**
Even liberal, pro-choice CNN reported "The Vatican says the pope lectured Pelosi about abortion and assisted suicide. " edition.cnn.com/2009/POLITICS/02/18/pope.pelosi/index.html.

**The only thing worse than getting lectured by the Pope for supporting the murder of babies by abortion is when she will have to stand alone in front of Jesus & have to answer for her actions!

Pelosi just wanted a photo op & a taxpayer funded trip to Italy for her family.
**
Here’s the bottom line; NO MATTER HOW MUCH GOOD THIS BILL MIGHT DO, IF IT FUNDS ABORTION IT IS COOPERATING IN A GRAVE EVIL!

**The Catechism of the Catholic Church & St. Thomas Aquinas teach us; ““An evil action cannot be justified by reference to a good intention” (cf. St. Thomas Aquinas, Dec. praec. 6). The end does not justify the means.” (CCC 1759)
**

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Mark77]

Gilliam just posted;

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops explain the issue succinctly here:

**In line with longstanding federal jurisprudence, the authorizing legislation for Community Health Centers creates a presumptive mandate for funding abortions without meaningful limit. Currently such funding is prevented only by the fact that funds under the Labor/HHS appropriations act are governed by the Hyde amendment. By appropriating new funds not covered by Hyde, and by failing to include any relevant abortion limitation of its own, the Senate health care bill as presently worded would disburse billions of dollars in federal funding that no one could prevent from being used for elective abortions.**

These attorneys are slick, just because it doesn’t say that abortion is directly funded, they do not prohibit creative ways to take taxpayer money for additional baby murders!

Sancta Maria, Mater Dei, Ora Pro Nobis Peccatoribus!

mark

 

[Pamm]

I don’t believe that the Bishop’s statement would constitute an “infallible” judgement by the Pope. As Rence says, they have a right to their opinion. I don’t vote or support things just because Bishops, who by the way, are human beings who are sinners like me, say something. The Bishops also looked the other way for a very long time about the sexual abuse in their diocese.

In today’s newspaper in Nebraska, a doctor in Schuyler, NE, where a large Hispanic population lives, says that one of his patients chose to have an abortion a few weeks ago after he told her that she would have to pay for her pre-natal care and the delivery of her child. A second woman is considering an abortion for the same reasons.

Also, the voters did not pass this. It was our state legislature and pro-life governor who agreed to the elimination of services for illegal immigrants.

omaha.com/article/20100318/NEWS01/703189863/1009#abortion-tied-to-prenatal-loss

 

[OraLabora]

As a Catholic you should look at what the Bishops are (repeatedly) saying.
They are in disagreement with your view.
Church teaching can NOT be dismissed as propaganda.

Church teaching? Or bishops’ opinions?

Is this a dogmatic teaching of the magisterium or a recommendation of the local conference of bishops?

Just want to clarify, although this issue doesn’t apply to me as I’m in Canada.

Sounds to me like a lot of hysteria going around on all sides.