Catholic heliocentrism

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One also learned as a Catholic that no papal decree can be overturned without an act of abrogation, an explanation as to why the decree is being officially abandoned.
On a little more reflection, it seems to me that the answer to this is to be found in the distinction laid out by the canonists on papal approval of various acts of Congregations in forma communi and in forma specifica. The 1616 decree was approved by the Pope in forma communi and hence, if my own understanding is correct, the character of this decree remains that of a duly approved act of the Congregation itself, i.e. it was not a papal act per se. Hence such acts of Roman Congregations do not require an explicit papal abrogation.

This would also explain something you mentioned in another thread now unfortunately deleted, namely, that this decree does not show up in Denzinger. Was this part of the great conspiracy, as you said there, or does it admit of a less insidious explanation?

Again, don’t have my Denzinger handy, but I suspect that there are many, many decrees of various Roman Congregations approved in forma communi that do not appear in Denzinger precisely because, lacking the fullest papal approbation, they do not lend to the theological topic at hand the sort of ecclesiastical authority that Denzinger normally documents. The acts of Roman Congregations approved in forma communi do not in themselves represent binding theological definitions. Decrees authorized in forma specifica would do so and I suspect that one will find those assiduously documented by Denzinger.

And as for the 1633 decree, it was about what was and was not to be on the Index which we all agree was a disciplinary matter that could be and was changed by later Popes, on any number of issues besides geocentrism.
 
David. Anything written on the 1616 decree since 1741 is Copernican thinking. It is based on the false belief that the 1616 decree and 1633 trial of Galileo were ERRORS of EMBARRASSING proportions. Of course they have to depict the papal decree of 1616 as ‘not infallible’. They would hardly do otherwise given they write as convinced Copernicans now. But they need to do more than use the old not infallible ploy.

Now look at the scenario they depict. The quotes you give makes it all look like a harmless mistake, all by saying it was not infallible, not this, not that. What about it being wrong? Here is what Fr Roberts was able to say in 1870 as regards the 1616 decree:
  1. Decrees confirmed by, and virtually included in, a Bull addressed to the Universal Church may be, not only scientifically false, but, theologically considered, dangerous, i.e. calculated to prejudice the cause of religion, and compromise the safety of a portion of the deposit committed to the Church’s keeping. Or, in other words, the Pope in and by a Bull addressed to the universal Church, may confirm and approve with Apostolic authority decisions that are false, unsound, and perilous to the faith.
  2. Decrees of the Apostolic See and of Pontifical Congregations may be calculated to oppose the free progress of science.
  3. The Pope’s infallibility is no guarantee that he may not use his supreme authority to indoctrinate the Church with erroneous opinions, through the medium of Congregations he has erected to assist him in protecting the Church from error.
  4. The Pope, through the medium of a Pontifical Congregation, may require, under pain of excommunication, individual Catholics to yield an absolute assent to false, unsound, and dangerous propositions.
Now the above is the Catholic Church according to the Copernican whose position you quote above David. Doesn’t make good Catholic reading, does it? Why didn’t the same Catholic Encyclopaedia address these obvious consequences? Well I’ll tell you why. Because who in God’s name would want anybody to read what the Church got up to according to the Copernican converts? All that was carefully avoided substituted with pious rhetoric trying to make it all look like a harmless mistake in 1616. And if you want I can show the PERSONAL attack on the same 1616 and 1633 Churchmen at Vatican II and by Pope John Paul II later.

For me as a Catholic, all the above was not Catholicism as I was taught as a boy. That kind of religion that doesnt know formal heresy from a matter of science is for the birds. My Catholicism needed to see evidence of the Holy Ghost guiding the Church as promised, not allowing it to become the instrument of contradiction as depicted above. I did my homework and came out a better convinved Catholic for it. Peace with my beliefs began with the knowledge that the Church was never proven wrong in the first place. I then had to carefully follow the official acts in this matter as distinct to those of individuals. From 1741 popes became the victims of false prophets they relied on to guide them in their decisions. Popes were assured that science, Newton and Bradley, had proven the 1616 decree false. Permission to grant imprimaturs and to eliminate books from the Index were the only official acts of these popes, but the 1616 decree wasn’t touched. No abrogation or retrial was ever held, even by Pope John Paul II, the most convinced Copernican of all in the history of the Church. Yes he held his Galileo Commission from 1981-1992, but it was all PAS business, not one ounce of papal authority behind its distorted findings.

The truth will out, as the saying goes. But for the truth of the 1616 decree to be accepted it means the Copernicans in the Church since 1741 have to be exposed for what they were and are, apologists whose faith in human reasoning is greater than that of the geocentric interpretation of the Fathers and Church up to 1741. But can you imagine any pope or churchman, or theologian, or philosopher or whatever, facing a laughing world to proclaim that in mature recollection, we in the Church now revert back to the truth defined and declared in 1616? I’d say they would rather die as martyrs rather than suffer such a jolt in their human pride. And as the fellow said, that is a truth too far, so on goes the ‘it was not infallible’ farce.
 
Can someone explain to me the Vatican’s position on the Copernican thory on the relationship among the Earth, the sun and the planets? I mean, a Catholic can believe it as a scientific fact in good conscience, right?
May I respectfully point out that there is no Catholic heliocentrism and no Catholic geocentrism. In other words, one is free to believe in heliocentrism or geocentrism as one wishes.

In my humble opinion, the merits of the geocentric theory and the heliocentric theory should be debated on scientific grounds only. Personally, I see no reason to go back centuries to the opinions expressed by Church officials when modern science has contributed loads of info regarding the universe.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
 
May I respectfully point out that there is no Catholic heliocentrism and no Catholic geocentrism. In other words, one is free to believe in heliocentrism or geocentrism as one wishes.

In my humble opinion, the merits of the geocentric theory and the heliocentric theory should be debated on scientific grounds only. Personally, I see no reason to go back centuries to the opinions expressed by Church officials when modern science has contributed loads of info regarding the universe.

Blessings,
granny

The human person is worthy of profound respect from the moment of conception.
Is this helpful at all to the discussion; I have a clearer view from reading it and it does not appear that the Catholic Church was dogmatic about any side of the issue. Although I must say that the Bible tells us the answer(s) to the question(s) and if it were referred to and understood and believed, there would have not been an issue to start with.
 
Is this helpful at all to the discussion; I have a clearer view from reading it and it does not appear that the Catholic Church was dogmatic about any side of the issue. Although I must say that the Bible tells us the answer(s) to the question(s) and if it were referred to and understood and believed, there would have not been an issue to start with.
Definitely, your link is helpful. I have seen references to some of that info but it always seemed out of context. This article puts things in perspective, especially the line “Indeed, most of the resistance to heliocentrism came not from the Church but from the universities.” Personally, I think it is important to place the events regarding Galileo within the environment of the Renaissance and the Reformation.

Note: I do recognize that most universities were Catholic in some way. However, it is within the “university” environment that scientific discoveries need to be battled both pro and con. The role of the Catholic Church is to affirm Divine Revelation regarding faith and morals. Given the nature of the times, it should be obvious that the Church would be worried that startling information about the physical position of the material earth could eat at the faith of Catholics. Therefore, the clash.

It is not my intention to whitewash the Church. It is my intention to clarify the difference between decrees and actual Catholic dogma. Decrees can be wrongly issued. Catholic dogma is infallible. The above post is correct in that the Catholic Church was not dogmatic about any side of the issue…

It is interesting to me, that the Church did not then or since duly define and universally declare a dogma to settle the scientific issue regarding geocentrism and heliocentrism. Among all those hot heads on both sides, someone understood the real mission of Catholicism. Someone must have realized that decrees and the Index were adequate to handle the pressing situation. Thus, in the future, Catholics would not be hindered in their exploration of the wonder and glory of God’s creation.
 
May I respectfully point out that there is no Catholic heliocentrism and no Catholic geocentrism. In other words, one is free to believe in heliocentrism or geocentrism as one wishes.

In my humble opinion, the merits of the geocentric theory and the heliocentric theory should be debated on scientific grounds only. Personally, I see no reason to go back centuries to the opinions expressed by Church officials when modern science has contributed loads of info regarding the universe.

Blessings,
granny
.
Again granny you show me you go from post to post like a correction administrator, deciding this is Catholic, that is not Catholic, this is binding, that is not binding, just as if you now have the job once under the auspices of Cardinal Bellarmine, Master of Controversial Questions. The only problem is that you cannot show anyone where or when the Church said anything like you say regarding the authority and status of the 1616 decree. I have shown where the Church defined and declared the formal heresy (1616 and 1664), and it to be absolute (1633). You have shown NOTHING, only your opinion. And you want me to apologise **‘for misrepresenting its local actions as an universal, duly defined and declared dogma which is part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith.’ **

As for your .‘May I respectfully point out that there is no Catholic heliocentrism and no Catholic geocentrism. In other words, one is free to believe in heliocentrism or geocentrism as one wishes’, well I can show where the Church made it formal heresy to hold H, so can you show me where the Church said you can hold H now? But more importantly granny, how does the Church interpret the hundreds of passages that reveal a G world? Is the Church left with a ‘don’t know how to interpret those passages?’ Is the Church’s position now that of Einstein’s, a Tweedledum or Tweedledee exegesis and hermeneutics? That what your saying?

As for your 'humble opinion, the merits of the geocentric theory and the heliocentric theory should be debated on scientific grounds only. Personally, I see no reason to go back centuries to the opinions expressed by Church officials when modern science has contributed loads of info regarding the universe’, where would that get us, given science’s Tweedledum or Tweedledee limits the last time I looked?
 
Is this helpful at all to the discussion; I have a clearer view from reading it and it does not appear that the Catholic Church was dogmatic about any side of the issue. Although I must say that the Bible tells us the answer(s) to the question(s) and if it were referred to and understood and believed, there would have not been an issue to start with.
Understand Pat, that every article like this you read will be written by a Copernican.
Objective scholars however, intent on trying to come to terms with what they conclude to be a disastrous episode in Church history, even if it is the only one of its kind, admit ‘the wish to solve the riddle plays against the consciousness that it may be insoluble.’ The reason for this is of course because the teaching of the Church precludes such a happening as the Galileo affair in which a Church decree defining and declaring formal heresy can be demonstrably wrong. The Holy Ghost, we are ever assured, in matters of defining faith and morals - and the true interpretation of the Scriptures is of faith - assists the Pope, the Church, in its government. Such is the true nature of the ‘riddle’ and is the reason why so many scholars, in spite of their close examination of the case, know in their heart that they have failed to resolve things to their ultimate satisfaction. And that is the reason why there are many different versions and interpretations of the Galileo case, those written by people who wished to see the Church discredited and undermined as a divine institution in the minds of men, and those written by Catholics – such as the 1992 Galileo Commission - who, in their belief that Galileo was proven right after all, rewrite and revise history retrospectively in a desperate attempt to try to minimise the damage they perceive was done to the credibility of the Catholic Church. We see then both sides had good reason to pervert the facts and different accounts of the case are a result of this, but more so in those composed over the centuries by the Catholic apologists, all trying hard of course to expurgate the Church from the responsibility and consequences of having defined and declared by papal decree the proposition of a fixed sun as formal heresy and for condemning Galileo accordingly. Such pathetic delusion and denial desperately tries to avoid the fact that the Catholic Church, according to its own teaching, does not indulge in pert, frivolous, or erroneous decrees when deciding on matters of faith or morals; yet one could well believe it did such a thing were one to believe the stories put out these past centuries.

continued:
 
continued:

Now that article applauded by Granny. Its fine and accurate until we get to; 'Today Galileo’s conclusion seems obvious. But it was not obvious at the time,.’ See, he thinks H has been proven. H cannot be proven. If you do not come to terms with this I suggest you forget trying to find the truth of the affair.

Next:
’It must be pointed out that at the time the Church did not have an official position on whether the sun goes around the earth or vice versa.’ Wrong, the Church had an official position, given all the Fathers interpreted the Scriptures as revealing G. It’s contrary interpretation H had not been defined as formal heresy then, but like other dogmas based on Revelation, they are retrospective so to speak.
The church’s position was reflected in Osiander’s preface to Copernicus’s book De revolutionibus in 1546 when he wrote: ‘This artist is markedly outstanding in both these respects for it is not necessary that these hypotheses should be true, or even possible; but it is enough if they provide a calculus which fits the observations…And if it constructs and thinks up causes - and it has certainly thought up a good many - nevertheless it does not think them up in order to persuade anyone of their truth but only in order that they provide a correct basis for calculation…Maybe the philosopher demands probability instead; but neither of them will grasp anything certain or hand it on, unless it has been divinely revealed to him.’
As this preface spelled out the Church’s position, Copernicus’s book was not considered a danger to Catholic faith, so the Church remained neutral.

The next aberration in the article is this nonsense: 'After careful study of the matter and of Galileo’s evidence, Cardinal Bellarmine-who was later canonized and made a doctor of the Church-concluded that Galileo had not contradicted Scripture.’
Here is the truth:
The following day, the 25th Feb 1616 - the day on which the Pope Paul V actively presided at the Holy Office as its prefect - the censures were reported to him by Cardinal Mellinus after which he gave his two well-known orders, one to Bellarmine, and one to the Commissary of the Holy Office. The first order was that Galileo was to be summoned and told of the decision and advised to abandon his heresy. Cardinal Bellarmine was to call Galileo to the Vatican Palace where he was to be notified that he could no longer propose Copernicanism as a truth. There was also to be present the Commissary General of the Inquisition, Fr de Lauda, who would, in the event of Galileo objecting, deliver a more severe warning under threat of imprisonment.

‘At the Palace, the usual residence of the afore-named Lord Cardinal Bellarmine, the said Galileo, having been summoned and standing before his Lordship, was, in presence of the very Reverend Father Michael Angelo Seghiti de Lauda, of the Order of Preachers, Commissary-General of the Holy Office, admonished by the Cardinal of the error of the aforesaid opinion and that he should abandon it; and immediately thereafter, in presence of myself, other witnesses, and the Lord Cardinal, who was still in the room, the said Commissary did enjoin upon the said Galileo, there present, and did order him in the name of his Holiness the Pope, and the names of all the Cardinals of the Congregation of the Holy Office, to relinquish altogether the opinion in question, namely that the sun is the centre of the universe and immovable and that the earth moves; nor henceforth to hold, teach, or defend in any way, either orally or in writing. Otherwise proceedings would be taken against him in the Holy Office. The said Galileo acquiesced in this ruling and promised to obey. Done in Rome, in the place aforementioned, in the presence of the Reverend Badino Nores from Nicosia in the Kingdom of Cyprus, and the Reverend Augustino Mongardo, of the diocese of Montepulciano, both witnesses belonging to the said Lord Cardinal’s household.’ —A. Favaro: Galileo e L’Inquisizione, 1902, p.62.

Finally: 'It’s interesting to note that during all of Galileo’s conflicts with the Church, other astronomers, including the equally famous Johannes Kepler, were openly writing and teaching heliocentrism. Kepler even worked out and published the equations that describe the orbits of the planets about the sun. Yet he never had the problems Galileo did, in part because he had less to do with the Catholic Church but also because he did not have Galileo’s biting arrogance.’

Kepler was a Protestant. I do not see that above, do you? That is why he avoided the problems of Galileo.
 
. I have shown where the Church defined and declared the formal heresy (1616 and 1664), and it to be absolute (1633). You have shown NOTHING, only your opinion.
You are right. I have shown nothing because there is no duly defined and declared dogma regarding the physical place of the material earth.

Yes. There are lots of opinions regarding the earth’s position in the grand scheme of things. These opinions may be debated until the cows come home. But all the debates and all the shouting of formal heresy this and formal heresy that does not automatically indicate a true dogma. Furthermore, I never got a clear answer if this dogma existed before the name calling or was it a new dogma after the name calling.

My only concern is that readers find out the correct information regarding the difference between a local decree and an universal dogma, between the Index and the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

There have been miles of posts explaining the mission of the Catholic Church and how it teaches this mission. See DavidPalm posts above.

The* Catechism of the Catholic Church, Second Edition* is a gold mine of Catholic teachings. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass with Jesus Christ truly present in the Eucharist is the pinnacle of our Faith. All this, along with the Seven Sacraments, is primary in the Catholic Church.

The mission of the Church is to bring souls to God. The Church is to help us achieve eternal bliss in the presence of the Blessed Trinity. The Church is here to serve others.

The Church is not meant to be a referee between a specific geocentric theory and a specific heliocentric theory.

Blessings,
granny

O Sacrament Most Holy,
O Sacrament Divine,
All praise and all thanksgiving,
be every moment Thine.
 
Summary:

I have just three main points and then what I can contribute to this discussion is pretty much tapped out. I want to clarify exactly what I’m saying here. I am arguing that no explanation of the movement of the heavenly bodies is de fide in the Catholic Church. I am arguing that the Church gives us freedom to explore these things and come to conclusions based on the best scientific evidence. I am asserting that the Catholic Church does not propose any one conclusion as a matter of faith, the denial of which is formal heresy.

I am not entering into the relative merits or lack thereof of any scientific theory. In my limited study I find that geocentrism, like “young earth creationism”, has certain major implausibilities which prevent me from embracing it. But I am not an expert and I am not addressing the scientific questions.

What concerns me is the assertion that geocentrism is de fide and that the denial of it is therefore “formal heresy”. This I think is fraught with theological difficulties.

Point #1: It Has Happened in the History of the Church that “It’s Not Infallible” is the Truthful and Correct Answer

Although Cassini denigrates the “but it’s not infallible” approach, the fact is that when one surveys Church history there are a few—a remarkably small number but still a few—instances in which one examines all the facts and has to conclude that what was said even in an official capacity was wrong, but that it was not proposed infallibly and so does not negate the Church’s claim.

The most famous of these is probably that of Pope Honorius. Gerry Matatics and Tim Staples in public debate argued that Honorius was not wrong and they were soundly defeated by a knowledgeable opponent. Robert Sungenis was all set to try the same approach, but Steve Ray and David Palm convinced him that the approach to the question taken by the famous patristic scholar Dom John Chapman was the correct one: “The Pope and the Council were in agreement as to the necessity of condemning Honorius, and they were certainly right in doing so under the circumstances” (Chapman, The Condemnation of Pope Honorius, p. 9). Chapman goes on to argue that, although this was indeed an official papal document and did address a doctrinal matter, Pope Honorius did not convene the Roman Synod, did not invoke the authority of St. Peter, did not do any of the things Popes of his day were wont to do when authoritatively addressing a doctrinal issue. He was wrong on a doctrinal matter, but he manifestly did not bind the Church to his error.

Point #2: The decrees against Galileo were from Roman Congregations, approved only in forma communi. They were not papal decrees and therefore, all the more, were not immune from error.

As I have already demonstrated, the 1616 and 1633 decrees concerning Galileo were not “papal decrees”. Period. They were issued by Roman congregations. A papal decree and a decree from a Roman congregation are two different things. No amount of cajoling can make one into the other. In fact, the Catholic Encyclopedia states that the 1633 decree “did not receive the pope’s signature”.

I had to smile when in another thread Cassini insisted that, “It was the Church itself that insisted the decree was papal, not I” and then stated, “Here the minutes of Galileo’s 1633 trial to prove it” (my emphasis). So now not only the decree of a Roman congregation, but even its minutes represent the authentic and authoritative voice of the Church! I am quite certain that any number of instances could be cited from various Roman congregations, much less their minutes, which Cassini would be very happy indeed to agree are not de fide, are not to be simply equated with the voice of the Church.

The Catholic Encyclopedia points out that even non-Catholics scholars have reasonably conceded that the actions of these congregations in the Galileo case did not commit the whole Church to the positions taken:

Nor is this only an opinion of theologians; it is corroborated by writers whom none will accuse of any bias in favour of the papacy. Thus Professor Augustus De Morgan (Budget of Paradoxes) declares

It is clear that the absurdity was the act of the Italian Inquisition, for the private and personal pleasure of the pope — who knew that the course he took could not convict him as pope — and not of the body which calls itself the Church.

And von Gebler (“Galileo Galilei”):

The Church never condemned it (the Copernican system) at all, for the Qualifiers of the Holy Office never mean the Church.

It may be added that Riceloll and other contemporaries of Galileo were permitted, after 1616, to declare that no anti-Copernican definition had issued from the supreme pontiff. (Galileo)


<< to be continued >>
 
One additional decree that has been cited in this regard is Pope Alexander VII’s bull Speculatores Domus Israel which served as a preface to the republication of the Index. Here I think that Peter Dimond, despite his errant sedevacantist position, has provided an important insight. He points out that the Pope tells us explicitly what his purpose was in including the previous decrees in the republication of the Index:

Yet it is so far retained that the class to which each book belongs will be found cited where the book is named, and also the decree by which the book was originally prohibited, in order that the whole history of each case may be known. “For this purpose,” pursues the Pontiff, "we have caused the Tridentine and Clementine Indices to be added to this general Index, and also all the relevant decrees up to the present time, (Dimond, “Examining the Theological Status of Geocentrism and Heliocentrism and the Devastating Problems this creates for Baptism of Desire Arguments”, p. 24, citing Roberts, The Pontifical Decrees Against the Movement of the Earth and the Ultramontane Defense of Them)

Dimond continues:

In promulgating this disciplinary measure, the pope did not infallibly declare that all must believe the things contained in those past decrees of the Holy Office, etc. which were attached to the Index. No, as Fr. Roberts says, Pope Alexander VII attached those other decrees “in order that the whole history of each case may be known.” To have lesser decrees attached to a disciplinary measure in order that the history of each case may be known is very different from solemnly declaring (to be believed by the universal Church) all the points contained in those decrees attached to the Index. I believe that this clearly shows that the bull of Pope Alexander VII was a disciplinary measure which did not infallibly promulgate the decrees attached to that disciplinary measure (Dimond, p. 25.)

And as MarianD rightly said in another thread (would that we had more catechumens like this!):

Papal bulls/decrees are simply the Pope writing a letter. It carries no weight of dogma or infallibility. They are, however, authoritative. That means that one shouldn’t outright disobey it, but that doesn’t mean that one can’t argue against it. Arguing against a papal decree does NOT make one a non-Catholic, and the words contained within the Papal bull/decree are not infallible dogmas and are subject to change.

As it stands, of course, the Index that Alexander VII promulgated was duly modified and eventually abandoned entirely by his successors, demonstrating that this was a matter of discipline, not of doctrine.

The bottom line is that if the Popes of that day had wished to condemn directly with their authority, or to confirm a doctrine as de fide directly with their authority, for the whole Church, they were free and capable of doing so. They did not do so and I see in this the working of the Holy Spirit.

<< to be continued >>
 
**Point #3: The Contrary Position Cannot be Harmonized with the Dogma of the Church’s Indefectibility
**
Finally, I have already stated that I do not believe that Cassini’s is consonant with a dogma of the Faith, the indefectibility of the Church. Although he professes to be upholding the Church’s authority, surely it’s clear that his position destroys it.

Where on one view we have two Roman congregations, confirmed only in forma communi, erroneously branding a particular view as “formal heresy”, on the other view we have Pope after Pope and all the bishops in communion with them allowing greater and greater expression of this “formal heresy”. They have granted imprimaturs to books that teach this “formal heresy”. They have allowed this “formal heresy” to be taught in Catholic schools worldwide. It is explicitly allowed in a papal encyclical that this “formal heresy” may in fact be true (cf. Benedict XV’s In Praeclara Summorum 4, cited above), an ecumenical council deplored what happened in 1616 and 1633 (Gaudium et Spes 36, citing Vita e opere di Galileo Galilei in the footnote, making it clear what was in mind), and another Pope publicly apologized for it. My guess is that at this point Cassini would fall back on the “but it’s not infallible” argument that he derides in other contexts. But in this thread he has done exactly what I think has to be done if one insists that the 1616 and 1633 decrees established a de fide doctrine, namely, he has painted all of the Popes from Benedict XIV to Benedict XVI as traitor, dupes, and cowards.

What has actually happened is that the Church has officially adopted as her own the principles with regard to Scripture and science as laid out by St. Augustine ( 1:19–20; 2:9De Genesi ad Litteram), reiterated by St. Thomas (Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 68), reiterated even by St. Robert Bellarmine (Letter to Foscarini, third point), and officially by Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus 19:

The unshrinking defense of the Holy Scripture, however, does not require that we should equally uphold all the opinions which each of the Fathers or the more recent interpreters have put forth in explaining it; for it may be that, in commenting on passages where physical matters occur, they have sometimes expressed the ideas of their own times, and thus made statements which in these days have been abandoned as incorrect. Hence, in their interpretations, we must carefully note what they lay down as belonging to faith, or as intimately connected with faith – what they are unanimous in. For "in those things which do not come under the obligation of faith, the Saints were at liberty to hold divergent opinions, just as we ourselves are,"55 according to the saying of St. Thomas. And in another place he says most admirably: "When philosophers are agreed upon a point, and it is not contrary to our faith, it is safer, in my opinion, neither to lay down such a point as a dogma of faith, even though it is perhaps so presented by the philosophers, nor to reject it as against faith, lest we thus give to the wise of this world an occasion of despising our faith."56 The Catholic interpreter, although he should show that those facts of natural science which investigators affirm to be now quite certain are not contrary to the Scripture rightly explained, must nevertheless always bear in mind, that much which has been held and proved as certain has afterwards been called in question and rejected. And if writers on physics travel outside the boundaries of their own branch, and carry their erroneous teaching into the domain of philosophy, let them be handed over to philosophers for refutation.

Therefore I believe that the correct view is very simply that in this matter of “how the heavens go” we have freedom as Catholics. The contrary position, that geocentrism is proposed by the Church de fide, is itself an error that places the Catholic who holds it in a completely untenable position with regard to his own Church. It is, as I have said, the position of the man who would burn down a building, with all the people in it, to kill a rat.
 
He has been proved wrong many times. The problem is that the people who believe in him don’t listen to reason and don’t know anything about science or physics. If someone tells me the moon is made of green cheese and I say it’s not, I’ve seen a rock from the moon (which I have, at my last university), he’ll say it was a fraud…there is no way to convince invincible ignorance. (See: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Invincible_ignorance_fallacy
However for those other readers who are open to reason, here’s a web site that does a good job of refudiating (my favorite neologism) the geocentrists:
philvaz.com/apologetics/p92.htm
And for you geocentrists and young earth enthusists–go ahead, enjoy your computers, your satellite TV’s, MRI’s and all the benefits of science and technology. You can do that without knowing anything about physics or having a consistent world view. You don’t have to pay your intellectual dues.
Thank you for the links.
 
David, I have read your three posts and all you do is regurgitate the opinions of Copernicans, all of whom were/are convinced that the Church of 1616 was proven wrong in its papal decree that defined and declared belief in a fixed sun as formal heresy. In other words, if we are to take the Church seriously, all material heretics now. The opinions of heretics defending their right to promulgate the same heresy defined by the Church do not constitute a reliable foundation for Catholic truth.

It cannot be denied that Pope Paul V declared a contradiction of a scriptural revelation formal heresy. Heresy is a denial of a dogma. It cannot be denied that Pope Urban VIII let it be known the Church of 1616 considered the same formal heresy to be absolute and immutable. It cannot be denied under Pope Urban VIII Galileo was found guilty of suspicion of heresy in that his book indicated he was a sun-fixer. You make light of the minutes I quote and refer to. The minutes are but a record of what Pope Urban VIII judged to be the authority of the 1616 decree according to the Church.

***‘Invoking, then, the most holy Name of our Lord Jesus Christ, and that of His most glorious Mother Mary ever Virgin, by this our definitive sentence we say, pronounce, judge, and declare, that you, the said Galileo… have rendered yourself to this Holy Office vehemently suspected of heresy, that is, of having believed and held a doctrine which is false and contrary to the sacred and divine Scriptures… and that an opinion can be held and defended as probable after it has been defined and declared to be contrary to Holy Scripture.’ ***

The history of the Copernican attacks, ploys and revisionism of the above is long, begun by Descartes before the ink was dry on Galileo’s condemnation in 1633 and continued to this day on CAF, evolving all the time with new ploys, new revisionism, new people to quote from. Now take a look at all David’s quotes and opinions, they come from individuals. Professor Augustus De Morgan and von Gebler, Peter Dimond. No thanks, I’ll go with Pope Paul V and Pope Urban VIII. Diamond of course is a post-Vatican II sedevacantist who judges the post Vatican II popes all multiple formal heretics. The last thing he needs as a practicing sedevacantist is anyone suggesting that popes from 1741 were Copernican heretics or he has to say no true popes since 1741. That would be the end of sedevacantism.

Now given that the Galileo case has caused such controversy throughout Catholicism, with opinion after opinion on the status of the CHURCH’S decrees, NOT ONE OF THEM SINCE 1633 FROM THE CHURCH OFFICIALLY, wouldn’t you think the Church would have ruled on it. You know why the Church hasn’t touched the decree officially? Because the Church cannot contradict a papal decree defining formal heresy without the gates of hell breaching the Church. The only way to remove a decree defining formal heresy is by abrogation, not by majority vote of Toms, Dicks and Harrys. Yes, until there is an abrogation, a legal elimination of a definition of heresy, or a legal retrial of Galileo by the Church, then that heresy stands no matter who holds it or promulgates it. But do not hold you breath. Near four hundred years of opinions is all your going to get. Meanwhile the Church retains its divine protection but to see this is a faith too far for today’s Copernicans. That said, more and more are opening their eyes and the truth will set them free.

Finally you state,
’What has actually happened is that the Church has officially adopted as her own the principles with regard to Scripture and science as laid out by St. Augustine (De Genesi ad Litteram 1:19–20; 2:9), reiterated by St. Thomas (Summa Theologica, First Part, Question 68), reiterated even by St. Robert Bellarmine (Letter to Foscarini, third point), and officially by Pope Leo XIII in Providentissimus Deus 19’:

Tell you what David, let us take the above in isolation and continue this debate with specifics. Could you show us how ‘THE CHURCH’ did its ‘official’ U-turn according to the teachings of Augustine, St Thomas and Cardinal Bellarmine. I will respond in full to it tomorrow one way or another.
 
Post 51 is a misrepresentation of Catholicism. Please refer to previous posts by David Palm for the truth.

Furthermore, after repeated requests, the alleged duly defined and universally declared theological dogma/doctrine regarding the physical position of the material earth has never been produced from the provided reference material. Thus, the word doctrine, sprinkled throughout minutes and letters, must be taken as a term meaning strong scientific or philosophical beliefs which are outside the purview of theological dogmas of that time.

As is well known, the Catholic Deposit of Faith does not contain dogmas pertaining to specific scientific conclusions concerning the study or the research of individual physical and material phenomenon.

Blessings,
granny

Isaiah 55
 
Cassini,

I thank you for your reply and for your view that my view on this is worthy of interaction. I’m afraid my other responsibilities are such that I cannot sustain an extended debate on this. So below will have to be what I would consider my “closing arguments”.

First I would note the continued assertion that in 1616 and 1633 we are dealing with “papal decrees”. This I have already rejected, with the reasons given above. It’s important, I think, because it addresses a point you have made many times, namely, that formal abrogation of these decrees is required. That remains an unproven assertion.

With regard to the 1616 decree from the Congregation of the Index and the Bull of Alexander VII in 1664 there can be no difficulty, since the Index was duly updated and eventually done away with altogether by subsequent Popes, which of course is their right.

With regard to the 1633 decree of the Holy Office (again, not a papal decree), it is claimed (in the Catholic Encyclopedia for instance) that this never even received the Pope’s signature (although there can be no doubt that he supported it, of course.) (Emphasis is placed by some geocentrists on the allegation that no signed copy of Pius VII’s approval of an imprimatur for Settele’s can be produced. So it would seem that at least some consider this sort of argument to carry weight.) At most the 1633 decree can be said to be approved in forma communi and I have yet to see any evidence that decrees from a Roman congregation with that level of papal approval must be formally abrogated by a later Pope.

On the other side, I have pointed to one papal encyclical which clearly allows for the holding of what you are calling a “formal heresy” (Benedict XV’s In Praeclara Summorum 4). And Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Providentissimus Deus (18-19), drawing upon St. Augustine and St. Thomas, gives the principles for the whole Church on which both the witness of the Fathers and the testimony of sacred Scripture are to be considered when there appears to be a conflict between Scripture and natural science. This was reiterated by Pius XII in his encylical Divino Afflante Spiritu 3, reaffirming the teaching of Providentissimus Deus and of St. Augustine and St. Thomas on this specific point.

Again, I must emphasize that what I am arguing here is that the Church give us freedom in this area. On the matter of “how the heavens go”, Catholics are permitted to hold various views without any taint of “formal heresy”.

Unless I see evidence to the contrary, the teaching of these two papal encyclicals represents the official teaching of the Church on this matter and their authority trumps that of the decree of a Roman congregation which lacks formal papal ratification.

God bless,
 
David, I have read your three posts and all you do is regurgitate the opinions of Copernicans, all of whom were/are convinced that the Church of 1616 was proven wrong in its papal decree that defined and declared belief in a fixed sun as formal heresy. In other words, if we are to take the Church seriously, all material heretics now. The opinions of heretics defending their right to promulgate the same heresy defined by the Church do not constitute a reliable foundation for Catholic truth.
In others words, this is a direct attack against the Catholic Church.

This unfounded and unwarranted attack on the Church’s spiritual authority has been specifically answered by many different posters for close to two years.

The reason for this attack on Catholicism is that some individuals support geocentrism. This scientific issue is far removed from the realm of Catholicism.

Obviously, continually attacking the Catholic Church has no bearing on the personal scientific issue of geocentrism.

The important point which has been stated many times is –

The true Catholic Church gives its members freedom to explore the physical position of the material earth in the universe. On the matter of “how the heavens go”, Catholics are permitted to hold various views without any taint of “formal heresy”.
 
Cassini,

I thank you for your reply and for your view that my view on this is worthy of interaction. I’m afraid my other responsibilities are such that I cannot sustain an extended debate on this. So below will have to be what I would consider my “closing arguments”.

First I would note the continued assertion that in 1616 and 1633 we are dealing with “papal decrees”. This I have already rejected, with the reasons given above. It’s important, I think, because it addresses a point you have made many times, namely, that formal abrogation of these decrees is required. That remains an unproven assertion.

With regard to the 1616 decree from the Congregation of the Index and the Bull of Alexander VII in 1664 there can be no difficulty, since the Index was duly updated and eventually done away with altogether by subsequent Popes, which of course is their right.

With regard to the 1633 decree of the Holy Office (again, not a papal decree), it is claimed (in the Catholic Encyclopedia for instance) that this never even received the Pope’s signature (although there can be no doubt that he supported it, of course.) (Emphasis is placed by some geocentrists on the allegation that no signed copy of Pius VII’s approval of an imprimatur for Settele’s can be produced. So it would seem that at least some consider this sort of argument to carry weight.) At most the 1633 decree can be said to be approved in forma communi and I have yet to see any evidence that decrees from a Roman congregation with that level of papal approval must be formally abrogated by a later Pope.

On the other side, I have pointed to one papal encyclical which clearly allows for the holding of what you are calling a “formal heresy” (Benedict XV’s In Praeclara Summorum 4). And Pope Leo XIII’s encyclical Providentissimus Deus (18-19), drawing upon St. Augustine and St. Thomas, gives the principles for the whole Church on which both the witness of the Fathers and the testimony of sacred Scripture are to be considered when there appears to be a conflict between Scripture and natural science. This was reiterated by Pius XII in his encylical Divino Afflante Spiritu 3, reaffirming the teaching of Providentissimus Deus and of St. Augustine and St. Thomas on this specific point.

Again, I must emphasize that what I am arguing here is that the Church give us freedom in this area. On the matter of “how the heavens go”, Catholics are permitted to hold various views without any taint of “formal heresy”.

Unless I see evidence to the contrary, the teaching of these two papal encyclicals represents the official teaching of the Church on this matter and their authority trumps that of the decree of a Roman congregation which lacks formal papal ratification.

God bless,
Aw David, I hoped we could debate the matter point by point rather than try to summarise the whole affair post by post. In particular I isolated your paragraph on the Fathers that have been used for centuries to rebut geocentrism. I will now carry on alone as promised.
 
Aw David, I hoped we could debate the matter point by point rather than try to summarise the whole affair post by post. In particular I isolated your paragraph on the Fathers that have been used for centuries to rebut geocentrism. I will now carry on alone as promised.
As my Irish Mother would say: “There is more than one way to skin a cat.”

Thus, I am now checking this link.
catholicintl.com/galileowaswrong/index.html

“The Idea” which follows the conference details makes some interesting statements. The following quotes are taken out of context; therefore one should examine the entire section titled “The Idea” before an evaluation.

*“Galileo Was Wrong *is a detailed and comprehensive treatment of the scientific evidence supporting Geocentrism, the academic belief that the Earth…” (emphasis mine)

"Galileo Was Wrong shows that the debate between Galileo and the Catholic Church was much more than a difference of opinion about the interpretation of Scripture." (emphasis mine)

I hope to find a better clarification of academic and difference of opinion as I check out this website.

Sometime ago, I did find info on the web which confuses how matters of faith are treated by the ancient church. CAF already has a number of posts regarding both sides of this confusion plus the confusion over the Catholic Deposit of Faith.

Blessings,
granny

Genesis 1: 1
 
Can someone explain to me the Vatican’s position on the Copernican thory on the relationship among the Earth, the sun and the planets? I mean, a Catholic can believe it as a scientific fact in good conscience, right?

And what’s with the Sungenis conference on geocentrism?:confused:
Going back to the OP.

Here is the link to the Sungenis conference on geocentrism.
catholicintl.com/galileowaswrong/index.html

As for the Copernican theory on the relationship regarding earth, sun and planets. One is totally free to explore it from all angles.

If by “Vatican’s position” one is asking – Is there a Catholic dogma specifically stating that the Copernican theory must be accepted as a theological statement duly defined and universally declared as part of the Catholic Deposit of Faith? The answer is no.

There is no Catholic dogma regarding the specific physical position and movements of the earth as described by and credited to any particular individual such as Nicolaus Copernicus 1473-1543. This being the case, scientists who advise Catholic leadership regarding the physical movements of planets etc. can offer any opinion they wish. This means that if in their opinion, there is sufficient evidence to support Copernicus, they are free to believe in that theory or they can choose not to.

Since there is no dogma devoted to the Copernican theory, the Pope, himself, is free to express his beliefs regarding the movements etc. In reality, the Pope, himself, is free to believe an opposing theory to the Copernican one just the same as any currently living individual can choose a particular version of the physical position of the material earth.

What is currently happening is that there are a number of individuals, across the board, who are presenting relatively new evidence that geocentrism is a more accurate scientific description of the material earth. Obviously, today as always, one is free to believe in geocentrism.

Since there is no Catholic dogma directly pertaining to Nicolaus Copernicus and his theory, Catholics are free to believe any version of the earth’s movements or non-movements.

Blessings,
granny

John 3: 16 & 17
 
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