Catholic hell

[wolfpup]

My understanding is that, according to Catholicism, after death a person is sent immediately to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Could some knowledgeable people elaborate on this - are we judged beforehand or do we just go there immediately?

Orthodox claim that our final destination of Hell or Heaven is not definitively decided until after the final judgement. What is the evidence from the Church Fathers/Scripture that this is not the case?

Thanks,
WH

 

[1ke]

My understanding is that, according to Catholicism, after death a person is sent immediately to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Could some knowledgeable people elaborate on this - are we judged beforehand or do we just go there immediately?

Correct, the particular judgment occurs immediately upon our death as does entrance into either Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell.

Orthodox claim that our final destination of Hell or Heaven is not definitively decided until after the final judgement. What is the evidence from the Church Fathers/Scripture that this is not the case?

vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a12.htm see the footnotes

 

[Victorious]

Orthodox claim that our final destination of Hell or Heaven is not definitively decided until after the final judgement.

I guess my response to this claim would be to ask how it’s possible for our dispositions so to change after death that we can undo the effects of our particular judgment. If, having spent our lives preparing for heaven, we are admitted to the Beatific Vision, how is it possible that we can then turn around and reject God? and if, having spent our lives in dissipation, never recommending ourselves to God or seeking to do His will, we are cast into hell, how is it possible that we can somehow repent? Further, how can heaven be heaven if the danger of damnation that we labor under on earth follows us there? It just doesn’t make sense.

 

[Trishie]

For Jesus’ description of the judgement of souls see Matthew 25 verses 31-46.
As Judge, and as God, He is the authority.

From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a12.htm

God bless you.

 

[wolfpup]

I guess my response to this claim would be to ask how it’s possible for our dispositions so to change after death that we can undo the effects of our particular judgment. If, having spent our lives preparing for heaven, we are admitted to the Beatific Vision, how is it possible that we can then turn around and reject God? and if, having spent our lives in dissipation, never recommending ourselves to God or seeking to do His will, we are cast into hell, how is it possible that we can somehow repent? Further, how can heaven be heaven if the danger of damnation that we labor under on earth follows us there? It just doesn’t make sense.

Well, the response to that would be that we only get a “foretaste” of either hell or heaven before the final judgement - so that is how we can change. Once the final judgement is over, then, of course, it would not make sense that our destination can change.
I wonder if anyone could back this “immediatly to hell or heaven” idea from church fathers, because that would really settle the matter. What is the point of the last judgement if we go immediatly to out final destination straight after death?

 

[thistle]

My understanding is that, according to Catholicism, after death a person is sent immediately to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Could some knowledgeable people elaborate on this - are we judged beforehand or do we just go there immediately?

Orthodox claim that our final destination of Hell or Heaven is not definitively decided until after the final judgement. What is the evidence from the Church Fathers/Scripture that this is not the case?

Thanks,
WH

Hebrews 9:27 Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment

 

[Victorious]

Well, the response to that would be that we only get a “foretaste” of either hell or heaven before the final judgement - so that is how we can change. Once the final judgement is over, then, of course, it would not make sense that our destination can change.

My response to that response would be to ask the proponent to back it up from Scripture and Tradition. Somebody has already pointed out Hebrews 9:27 as a refutation of this theory.

I wonder if anyone could back this “immediatly to hell or heaven” idea from church fathers, because that would really settle the matter. What is the point of the last judgement if we go immediatly to out final destination straight after death?

Whereas the particular judgment does justice to us, the point of the general judgment is to do justice to God. Because on that day, everything will be made public, and we will know the truth about everything, and understand God’s judgments, and see His workings throughout history. The Catechism of the Catholic Church at 1040 puts it like this:

The Last Judgment will come when Christ returns in glory. Only the Father knows the day and the hour; only he determines the moment of its coming. Then through his Son Jesus Christ he will pronounce the final word on all history. We shall know the ultimate meaning of the whole work of creation and of the entire economy of salvation and understand the marvelous ways by which his Providence led everything towards its final end. The Last Judgment will reveal that God’s justice triumphs over all the injustices committed by his creatures and that God’s love is stronger than death.

Evidence of this from Scripture:

Matthew 10:25-26: If they have called the master of the house Be-el’zebul, how much more will they malign those of his household. So have no fear of them; for nothing is covered that will not be revealed, or hidden that will not be known.

Romans 2:3-8: Do you suppose, O man, that when you judge those who do such things and yet do them yourself, you will escape the judgment of God? Or do you presume upon the riches of His kindness and forbearance and patience? Do you not know that God’s kindness is meant to lead you to repentance? But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. For He will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, He will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury.

1 Corinthians 3:13: each man’s work will become manifest; for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done.

 

[Victorious]

By the way, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which is available in its entirety online, provides citations to Scripture, the Fathers, and ecumenical councils.

 

[wolfpup]

Thanks for all your help.

My response to that response would be to ask the proponent to back it up from Scripture and Tradition. Somebody has already pointed out Hebrews 9:27 as a refutation of this theory.

This only proves that there will be a judgement after death, which the orthodox do not deny. It is merely that this judgement is not the full judgement that will entail with the last judgement, and will not give judgement in full - only a “foretaste”.

Here are some quotes about the views of the Church fathers on this issue: (sorry, wikipedia is not exactly scholarly, but it is all I could find in a hurry)

From Wikipedia: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Particular_judgement#Old_Testament_and_Apocrypha

"Tertullian (c. 200) wrote that, even before final judgment, a soul “undergoes punishment and consolation in Hades in the interval, while it awaits its alternative of judgment, in a certain anticipation either of gloom or of glory”

“Some early Fathers, apparently including Justin, Irenaeus, Tertullian and Clement of Alexandria, believed that, in general, the saved did not enter heaven until Judgment Day, and during the interval between death and the resurrection they dwell happily in a delightful abode, awaiting their final glorification. Exceptions were admitted for the martyrs and some other classes of saints, who were admitted at once to the supreme joys of heaven”

From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afterlife#Christianity

“Hippolytus of Rome pictures Hades as a place where the righteous dead, awaiting in the bosom of Abraham their resurrection, rejoice at their future prospect, while the unrighteous are tormented at the sight of the “lake of unquenchable fire” into which they are destined to be cast.”

From what I understand, the reason that we cannot experience our judgement full because the resurrection of the dead has not taken place, and so body and soul are not united, which is why the experience is only a partial “foretaste”. It is also the reason why we die - our soul may be clean, but it is not united with a spiritual, immortal body.

This seems to suggest that at least some of the early Church Fathers viewed the afterlife differently to how medieval and modern Catholicism does. If there is no consensus on the issue, then why does the Catholic Church dogmatically expound a certain viewpoint?

 

[spockrates]

My understanding is that, according to Catholicism, after death a person is sent immediately to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Could some knowledgeable people elaborate on this - are we judged beforehand or do we just go there immediately?

Orthodox claim that our final destination of Hell or Heaven is not definitively decided until after the final judgement. What is the evidence from the Church Fathers/Scripture that this is not the case?

Thanks,
WH

Hey, Pup. Is one of your questions why Catholics believe in Purgatory?

 

[wolfpup]

Hey, Pup. Is one of your questions why Catholics believe in Purgatory?

Partly - Orthodox believe in purgation after death as well. It is more “why do Catholics believe souls go immediatly to the full experience of Hell or Heaven”, when some Church Fathers did not agree with this doctrine. Both the Heaven and the Hell “foretaste” (Bosom of Abraham/Hades) are part of the Orthodox theory of Purgatory, wheras Catholics seem to think purgatory is something completly different to either of those two places.

 

[spockrates]

Partly - Orthodox believe in purgation after death as well. It is more “why do Catholics believe souls go immediatly to the full experience of Hell or Heaven”, when some Church Fathers did not agree with this doctrine. Both the Heaven and the Hell “foretaste” (Bosom of Abraham/Hades) are part of the Orthodox theory of Purgatory, wheras Catholics seem to think purgatory is something completly different to either of those two places.

I’m hearing three questions (please let me know if I misunderstanding you):

1. 
   *]What evidence is there for the existence of Purgatory?
   *]How is it possible that people can go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell without first making a pit stop at Purgatory?
   *]What is Purgatory like? How is it like Heaven and Hell, or unlike Heaven and Hell?

 

[wolfpup]

I’m hearing three questions (please let me know if I misunderstanding you):

1. What evidence is there for the existence of Purgatory?

Yes, as defined by the Catholic church as a place different from either Heaven or Hell. In orthodox understanding it is the same place that all go to after death, because neither heaven or hell are fully created until after judgement day.

1. How is it possible that people can go straight to Heaven or straight to Hell without first making a pit stop at Purgatory?

Yes, especially when the church fathers I mentioned make no mention of going straight to heaven (apart from saints) or hell until after Last Judgement.

1. What is Purgatory like? How is it like Heaven and Hell, or unlike Heaven and Hell?

Where is the evidence that it is a different place to the place that the church fathers/ Orthodox called Bosom of Abraham/Hades, which is again separate from Heaven and The Lake of Fire created after the last judgement.

There seems to be a fundamental difference between Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife - what I am asking is for the Catholics to back thier understanding up from Chuch fathers, because from what I have quoted it seems the Church Fathers (aside from Augustine of Hippo) agree with the modern Orthodox position.

Hope I am making myself clear.

 

[ConstantineTG]

My understanding is that, according to Catholicism, after death a person is sent immediately to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Could some knowledgeable people elaborate on this - are we judged beforehand or do we just go there immediately?

Orthodox claim that our final destination of Hell or Heaven is not definitively decided until after the final judgement. What is the evidence from the Church Fathers/Scripture that this is not the case?

Thanks,
WH

Purgatory is not a final destination. Those who go to purgatory are destined for heaven.

We are of course judged at death.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, as defined by the Catholic church as a place different from either Heaven or Hell. In orthodox understanding it is the same place that all go to after death, because neither heaven or hell are fully created until after judgement day.

Mind you its not a universal understanding in the Orthodox Church. There are some who preach of “soul sleep” but its not a doctrine in the Orthodox Church. Also heaven do exist, Jesus is there, Mary is there, even the repentant thief on the cross is there. How can any Orthodox not believe that heaven doesn’te exist yet? Where is God now?

Yes, especially when the church fathers I mentioned make no mention of going straight to heaven (apart from saints) or hell until after Last Judgement.

Where is the evidence that it is a different place to the place that the church fathers/ Orthodox called Bosom of Abraham/Hades, which is again separate from Heaven and The Lake of Fire created after the last judgement.

There seems to be a fundamental difference between Catholic and Orthodox understanding of the Afterlife - what I am asking is for the Catholics to back thier understanding up from Chuch fathers, because from what I have quoted it seems the Church Fathers (aside from Augustine of Hippo) agree with the modern Orthodox position.

Hope I am making myself clear.

No, the difference is not fundamental between Orthodox and Catholic. We beleive in praying for the dead and that our prayers can mean someone being granted mercy. We both believe in an intermediate state between life and eternal life. The Roman Catholic Church defined it as Purgatory, the Eastern Christians have no such definition but the core understanding is not that far different from the core definition of Purgatory. Fundamentaly, it is the same. Its the further development of understanding and dogmatizing that made a difference in the details.

 

[wolfpup]

No, the difference is not fundamental between Orthodox and Catholic. We beleive in praying for the dead and that our prayers can mean someone being granted mercy. We both believe in an intermediate state between life and eternal life. The Roman Catholic Church defined it as Purgatory, the Eastern Christians have no such definition but the core understanding is not that far different from the core definition of Purgatory. Fundamentaly, it is the same. Its the further development of understanding and dogmatizing that made a difference in the details.

Yes, I agree they are similar views. BUT - there is still a difference, that being that the Orthodox do not believe out final destination is decided untill after the Last Judgement. Since there is no hell yet, those in Hades (recieveing the fortaste of eternal damnation) can be moved to the Bosom of Abraham through prayer. This is absent from Catholicism and seems to be the view of the church fathers I quoted about. Why does the Catholic Church go with Augustine of Hippos idea that those who are damned go to hell immediatly with no chance of being helped through prayer or Gods mercy? The reason why there may be no agreement between the Orthodox is because there was no agreement between the Church Fathers on this issue. And yet, the CC decrees one view over another. Why did these Fathers have differing views in the first place if one is doctrine and the others not?
I am only wondering why this view is more valid and the others not, is all.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Yes, I agree they are similar views. BUT - there is still a difference, that being that the Orthodox do not believe out final destination is decided untill after the Last Judgement. Since there is no hell yet, those in Hades (recieveing the fortaste of eternal damnation) can be moved to the Bosom of Abraham through prayer. This is absent from Catholicism and seems to be the view of the church fathers I quoted about. Why does the Catholic Church go with Augustine of Hippos idea that those who are damned go to hell immediatly with no chance of being helped through prayer or Gods mercy? The reason why there may be no agreement between the Orthodox is because there was no agreement between the Church Fathers on this issue. And yet, the CC decrees one view over another. Why did these Fathers have differing views in the first place if one is doctrine and the others not?
I am only wondering why this view is more valid and the others not, is all.

As I mentioned, the belief in soul sleep and an empty heaven and hell is not an Orthodox teaching. For one thing, they have saints. Where are the saints now if they are not in heaven. And if they are not in heaven, why are they saints?

Did an Orthodoxy clergyman or teacher tell you this? Or did you just look it up online? Be wary you may be reading someone’s theological opinion rather than actual teaching.

 

[steve_b]

My understanding is that, according to Catholicism, after death a person is sent immediately to Heaven, Hell or Purgatory.
Could some knowledgeable people elaborate on this - are we judged beforehand or do we just go there immediately?

Orthodox claim that our final destination of Hell or Heaven is not definitively decided until after the final judgement. What is the evidence from the Church Fathers/Scripture that this is not the case?

Thanks,
WH

Are you sure this is the Orthodox view? Afterall, the Orthodox pray to the saints.

• Saints are only saints because they are deemed to already be in heaven after they die…
• If they believed that the one they pray to is still dead (body AND soul) in the ground, and not in heaven yet, then their prayers to any particular saint are meaningless.

I think you have that wrong Re: the Orthodox position
orthodoxprayer.org/Saints%20in%20Prayer.html

 

[steve_b]

Yes, I agree they are similar views. BUT - there is still a difference, that being that the Orthodox do not believe out final destination is decided untill after the Last Judgement. Since there is no hell yet, those in Hades (recieveing the fortaste of eternal damnation) can be moved to the Bosom of Abraham through prayer.

Incorrect. Hell DOES exist…NOW. There is no going back and forth after death.
w:

This is absent from Catholicism and seems to be the view of the church fathers I quoted about. Why does the Catholic Church go with Augustine of Hippos idea that those who are damned go to hell immediatly with no chance of being helped through prayer or Gods mercy? The reason why there may be no agreement between the Orthodox is because there was no agreement between the Church Fathers on this issue. And yet, the CC decrees one view over another. Why did these Fathers have differing views in the first place if one is doctrine and the others not?
I am only wondering why this view is more valid and the others not, is all.

• Notice who’s telling the following story? Jesus. When do these events Jesus describes, occur? When each man dies. NOT waiting for the final judgement. Judgement for each soul and placement for that soul, occurs at the moment of death.
• Notice also, Jesus hasn’t opened heaven yet with His death, resurrection and ascension to heaven. That’s why we see His reference to Abraham’s bosom and to Moses and the prophets.
• Notice, There’s no going back and forth between the places mentioned.
• Hell exists and so does purgatory. However, At the end of time, purgatory will cease to exist. There will only be heaven and hell.

Luke 19:
19
"There was a rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen and who feasted sumptuously every day.

20 And at his gate lay a poor man named Laz’arus, full of sores,
21 who desired to be fed with what fell from the rich man’s table; moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 The poor man died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s bosom. The rich man also died and was buried;
23 and in Hades, being in torment, he lifted up his eyes, and saw Abraham far off and Laz’arus in his bosom.
24 And he called out, Father Abraham, have mercy upon me, and send Laz'arus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue; for I am in anguish in this flame.' **25** But Abraham said, Son, remember that you in your lifetime received your good things, and Laz’arus in like manner evil things; but now he is comforted here, and you are in anguish.
26 And besides all this,* between us and you* a great chasm has been fixed, in order that those who would pass from here to you may not be able, and none may cross from there to us.’
27 And he said, Then I beg you, father, to send him to my father's house, **28** for I have five brothers, so that he may warn them, lest they also come into this place of torment.' **29** But Abraham said, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.’
30 And he said, No, father Abraham; but if some one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' **31** He said to him, *If they do not hear Moses and the prophets, neither will they be convinced if some one should rise from the dead.’"*

 

[wolfpup]

Where are the saints now if they are not in heaven. And if they are not in heaven, why are they saints?

I did say aside from the Saints.

Exceptions were admitted for the martyrs and some other classes of saints, who were admitted at once to the supreme joys of heaven"

Did an Orthodoxy clergyman or teacher tell you this? Or did you just look it up online? Be wary you may be reading someone’s theological opinion rather than actual teaching.

Yes, I found the info online: orthodoxeurope.org/page/10/1.aspx#51

With the passing of three days the souls of the departed ascend to the Judge in order to undergo their personal trial. Righteous souls are then taken by the angels and brought to the threshold of Paradise, which is called ‘Abraham’s bosom’: there they remain waiting for the Last Judgment. Sinners, on the other hand, find themselves ‘in Hell’, ‘in torments’ (cf. Luke 16:22-23).** But the final division into the saved and the condemned will actually take place at the universal Last Judgment**, when ‘many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt’ (Dan.12:2). Before the Last Judgment, the righteous souls anticipate the joy of Paradise, while the souls of sinners anticipate the torments of Gehenna.

I am quite willing to admit that this is not official orthodox teaching, if it really is not. To be honest I have found many views online - ranging from very Catholic to almost universalist, which suggests that the teachings do vary.
Whatever the case is, the fact still remains that some church fathers taught differing ideas about life after death, some quite similar to the teaching mentioned in the above catechism. If the teaching is so clear cut, why were there differing viewpoints, and why has the church chosen one viewpoint as authoritative and another not?

Notice who’s telling the following story? Jesus. When do these events Jesus describes, occur? When each man dies. NOT waiting for the final judgement. Judgement for each soul and placement for that soul, occurs at the moment of death.

Fair enough, and from that viewpoint the parable makes sense. But if this is so obvious then why are there differing viewpoints among early christians?