Catholic Heretics and the Death Penalty

[Tantum_ergo]

Hello again, Mr. Newman.

I did ask that you provide the documentation in its entirety. However, you have not done so.

The quote that you give is Fr. Marianus quoting from an obsolete law --not Church teaching, and not canon law, but a civil law–which advocated the death penalty for heretics. Only civil authorities could carry out the civil penalty for heresy; never the Church.

Fr. Marianus not only noted that the old law (which talked about the civil penalities) was obsolete, he also noted that, according to church law (now this is canon, and this has been verified in the many links you were given) that the only penalties for heresy existing since the 19th (not the 1900s but the 1800s) century have been spiritual (i.e., excommunication) since civil authorities no longer treat heresy as a capital crime. That is civil authorities. The Church had always had spiritual penalties as its actions against heresy, but only a civil authority or government could carry out temporal penalties.

Why do you not acknowledge this? This is not simply the case with the Catholic Church, but with Protestant churches and governments as well.

Why do you ignore Protestant state executions for heretics?

Fr. Marianus notes that the civil authorities and I remind you that this is a case in Protestant civil authorities as well had stopped the death penalty by the 19th century. The Church itself had never as an institution ordered or carried out a death penalty for a heretic.

You do not appear to understand that a person who quotes from a document or writing is not himself endorsing that document or writing, particularly when he takes pains to not only identify the writing as being obsolete but also to condemn the practice called for in previous times by civil authorities, and to continue with the decision by the civil authorities against the death penalty, noting that the church reserves as it had always done the ecclesiastical penalties which **were then **and **are now **spiritual, not temporal.

 

[Saint_Augustin]

Technically, these passages are not about the death penalty?

1Co 5:5 To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

1Ti 1:20 Of whom is Hymeneus and Alexander, whom I have delivered up to Satan, that they may learn not to blaspheme.

And this one by the Lord himself.

Rev 2:22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed: and they that commit adultery with her shall be in very great tribulation, except they do penance from their deeds,
Rev 2:23 And I will kill her children with death: and all the churches shall know that I am he that searcheth the reins and hearts. And I will give to every one of you according to your works

 

[robert_newman]

I think the point has been made about the Roman Catholic Church and its position on the death penalty for heretics.

I will leave it there. Let others judge for themselves whether your church is following the teachings of the Lord Jesus Christ. Each of us will give account to God. That is sure.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Let us endeavor to make ourselves crystal clear to Mr. Newman.

Apparently he worries that “The Catholic Church” may try to execute him and other “Christians” because he believes that even in the 20th century the Catholic “law” called for the death penalty for heretics.

Well, Mr. Newman, you can relax.

The Catholic Church has no law calling for the death penalty for heretics. (It never did. It agreed with civil authorities on the penalty for heresy. When civil authorities called for the death penalty, the Church supported legitimate civil authority. When civil authorities stopped calling for the death penalty, the Church supported legitimate civil authority. The Church always does support legitimate civil authority, whether it is a monarchy, a republic, whatever. And civil authorities do change their penalties for crimes over time. May I remind you that once upon a time not that long ago a man in England could be hung for stealing a loaf of bread worth half a cent? Is that particular penalty still in force for that crime? )

There are no secret books from the 20th century with little DaVinci codes detailing a long unbroken list of ‘death penalities’ for non Catholics.

There are no Opus Dei albino monks and Vatican computers keeping track of “non Catholic Christians”, ready to send out squads of Papal guards to assassinate the “heretics”.

Relax.

 

[Tantum_ergo]

Well, Mr. Newman, God give you peace. If it makes you happy to declare victory and walk away, so be it. We do allow freedom of speech here. We will try to offer the truth at all times; it is, of course, up to the individual to accept that truth, or reject it.

 

[Saint_Augustin]

Rom 13:3 For princes are not a terror to the good work, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? Do that which is good: and thou shalt have praise from the same.
Rom 13:4 For he is God’s minister to thee, for good. But if thou do that which is evil, fear: for he beareth not the sword in vain. For he is God’s minister: an avenger to execute wrath upon him that doth evil.

Paul was teaching to the Romans to be honest, if not, they will be **legitimately ** beheaded.

 

[robert_newman]

Well, I choose to walk away, thanks.

In as much as you did unto one of these, my little ones, you did unto Me. Jesus taught this. He also said, ‘See that you do no hurt the oil or the wine’.

The death penalty for heretics is barbaric, un-Christian and will surely be judged by Almighty God.

This truth of the Roman Catholic Church is not well advertised.That you still believe in the death penalty for heretics. But each man must worship God according to his conscience. That is enough.

 

[MaryRose35]

Well, I choose to walk away, thanks.

In as much as you did unto one of these, my little ones, you did unto Me. Jesus taught this. He also said, ‘See that you do no hurt the oil or the wine’.

The death penalty for heretics is barbaric, un-Christian and will surely be judged by Almighty God.

This truth of the Roman Catholic Church is not well advertised.That you still believe in the death penalty for heretics. But each man must worship God according to his conscience. That is enough.

Worshiping God according to one’s conscience is not enough. We also must worship Him according to the truth if we are to be saved.

I think you have miunderstood the phrase “do unto others as you would have them to do you”.

I’m curious, what do you think about this verse. It was spoken by Jesus:

"But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over then, bring then hither; and kill them before me" (Luke 19:27).

Consider that this verse, which you don’t agree with, was spoken by Jesus, whom you claim to be a follower of. But are you really a follower of the true Jesus, or of a Jesus according to you own image and likeness?

This Jesus who you claim to follow is God. The same God who authored the Old Testament, and who told the Israelites to kill the evil people of their day - even women and children.

God is not a liberal. You and I may have been influenced by the liberalism of our day, but God has not. God hates sin. Not only does he send the sinner to hell to undergo the most extraordinary punishments for all eternity, but he also has no problem with these evil people being put to death so as not to bring other souls to hell with them.

Again, the verse I quoted should show you that there is something wrong with your thinking on this point, since you disagree with that verse which was spoken by Jesus.

 

[robert_newman]

It is not for me to justify my faith. It is for the Roman Catholic Church to justify its deeds.

This thread began with claims that I was a liar on this issue. I presented clear and checkable evidence from two prominent papally approved sources that your church still, today, has the death penalty for its heretics. Now, at the end of the thread, the circle has been completed. We have Catholics saying that such a penalty is justified after all !!!

It is best if each man gives an account to Almighty God for what he has done to others. I have shared the truth of these matters. My conscience is clear.

Yours sincerely

 

[fix]

It is not for me to justify my faith. It is for the Roman Catholic Church to justify its deeds.

This thread began with claims that I was a liar on this issue. I presented clear and checkable evidence from two prominent papally approved sources that your church still, today,* has* the death penalty for its heretics. Now, at the end of the thread, the circle has been completed. We have Catholics saying that such a penalty is justified after all !!!

It is best if each man gives an account to Almighty God for what he has done to others. I have shared the truth of these matters. My conscience is clear.

Yours sincerely

I think those debating you have been consistent. The Church does not have the death penalty for heretics. You seem to want to nuance and obfuscate the truth of the matter.

 

[MaryRose35]

It is not for me to justify my faith. It is for the Roman Catholic Church to justify its deeds.

Give me a deed and let’s see if I can reasonably justify it.

This thread began with claims that I was a liar on this issue.

They should not have called you a liar.

But what scandalizes you more, the Catholic Church agreeing that the death penalty for heretics is just, or the verse I quoted in the last post?

"But as for those my enemies, who would not have me reign over then, bring then hither; and kill them before me" (Luke 19:27).

---

You should ask youself why you disagree with this verse, which was spoken by Jesus. And if you do not have a problem with that verse, then ask youself why you have a problem with the death penalty for heretics.

 

[quasimodo]

What a singularly disgusting exchange. Virtually every response was twisted into a preconceived misinterpretation.

Invincible obstinacy surrounding adamant ignorance, enveloping utter vacuum.

 

[robert_newman]

I have no problem with this verse at all. You pluck it out of the New Testament and hardly seem to realise that it’s part of a parable that Jesus is speaking to his followers.

If you look in the same Chapter (Luke 19.11-28) you can see clearly that Jesus is teaching by parables. Let me read you verse 11 -

‘And as they heard these things, he added and spoke a parable, BECAUSE he was nigh unto Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear’.

Now, THAT is the context of what Jesus says from verse 11 right thru to verse 28 when it says -

‘And when he had thus spoken he went before, ascending up to Jerusalem’

Now, that is crystal clear. He is speaking in parables.

If you still don’t agree do you recall that at the moment of Jesus arrest in the garden of Gethsemane he expressly told his disciples to put away their swords ?

So you see, the gentle, meek Jesus did NOT call for capital punishment. He expressly did the opposite. He went like a lamb to the slaughter.

And, finally, in the Sermon on the Mount, he clearly taught that we should love those who are our enemies, to do good to those who were against us, etc etc etc.

This is the Jesus Christ of the New Testament, the same who was against the capital punishment of the woman caught in the act of adultery. He who lives by the sword shall die by the sword.

The Christian church does not approve of capital punishment. We who claim to be Christian must NOT think ourselves beyond the grace of Jesus Christ. If we do we are under judgement of the law ourselves. That is the New Testament delivered to the apostles.

 

[VociMike]

They should not have called you a liar.

Nobody has called him a liar. I made the counter-claim that his evidence did not exist, hoping that he would then offer checkable links to that evidence (and I don’t mean requiring us to fly to England to check in the British Library), and he never did offer those links. Here is the exchange:

VociMike:

The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church on this issue IS THE SAME TODAY AS IT WAS IN THE 16TH CENTURY.

OK, that’s your claim. My claim is that you or somebody else made those words up. My claim is that the books you cite, if they indeed exist, do not contain those words.

Now, all you have to do is prove by unbiased sources that I am wrong and you are right. Produce your actual evidence, not your reporting of the evidence. A link to the British Library where we could see scans of the originals would be a good start.

 

[robert_newman]

1. Go to the British Library site online -

bl.uk/catalogues/listings.html

1. Open the section ‘Integrated Catalogue’
2. Open ‘Search the Integrated Catalogue’
3. In the section ‘Type Word or Phrase’ enter the name of Marianus de Luca
4. Press Enter (you will then see the book details)
5. Do the same for Lepicier

You can see clearly the details of these 2 publications.

They exist. These works also exist in Catholic libraries. That is what they were written for.

 

[Church_Militant]

It is not for me to justify my faith. It is for the Roman Catholic Church to justify its deeds.

This thread began with claims that I was a liar on this issue. I presented clear and checkable evidence from two prominent papally approved sources that your church still, today, has the death penalty for its heretics. Now, at the end of the thread, the circle has been completed. We have Catholics saying that such a penalty is justified after all !!!

It is best if each man gives an account to Almighty God for what he has done to others. I have shared the truth of these matters. My conscience is clear.

Your conscience is not clear sir. There are verifiable sources that show that your own British Protestants persecuted and murdered my Irish Catholic ancestors in the name of your religion (regardless of which branch post reformation) and “the troubles” (now much subsided Glory Be To God!) in N. Ireland point up all the more that your own front doorstep is not so well swept as you seem to want to purport.

I also suspect that St. Thomas More might rise up from his grave to indict your conscience as well. If you wish to dig up old documents to bash my holy faith on then stand and deliver an account of your own Protestant atrocities, murders, and injustices.

Shall I then hold you to account for that as well then?

IMO, the very fact that you would even bring up this line of discussion seems to indicate an agenda to bash the Catholic Church.

I think you need to get your religion into perspective (as well as ours) and perhaps deal with the real issues that give Catholics the reasons to refer to Protestant teachings as heresies. The Catholic Church answered them all 500 years ago (and has continued to do so) and nothing new has come forth from Protestantism to justify the certifiable errors in their teaching. I wouldn’t fear any man who can take my life, but I will indeed fear Him who can cast me body and soul into hell for embracing heresies and teaching others to do likewise. (Matthew 10:28 & 2nd Peter 3:16)
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum.

 

[robert_newman]

It is not the duty of a Christian to live in the past but in the present.

You have a real problem with Christians who, as in the time of the Reformation, voted with their feet to get out of what they saw was a totally corrupt insitution. That was their choice. And papal medals were struck to celebrate when they were murdered,

You speak of Ireland. But the Papacy itself gave the island of Ireland to the English king with the command that he send missionaries there to convert them. (This was before the Reformation at a time when the English king was a Roman Catholic). These things are history.

You are of course fully entitled to believe what you please within the context of the laws of the land. I defend your freedom. Toleration is a hallmark of true Christianity.

Yours sincerely

 

[VociMike]

1. Go to the British Library site online -

bl.uk/catalogues/listings.html

1. Open the section ‘Integrated Catalogue’
2. Open ‘Search the Integrated Catalogue’
3. In the section ‘Type Word or Phrase’ enter the name of Marianus de Luca
4. Press Enter (you will then see the book details)
5. Do the same for Lepicier

You can see clearly the details of these 2 publications.

They exist. These works also exist in Catholic libraries. That is what they were written for.

You really don’t understand, do you?

Yes, I accept this evidence that the books exist, since I trust the British Library. That in no way proves that the words you quoted are to be found in the books. That is why I asked for scans of the pages in question.

But, and this is vastly more important, what some canon lawyers may have written has no authority whatsoever. If it is Church teaching, as you have claimed, then you must prove this assertion by quoting from authoritative Church documents e.g. the code of canon law. You have been asked over a dozen times to do so, and you have not done so. So we can only conclude that you are unable to find the “teachings” that you claim exist in actual Church documents, and you and your fellow-travellers are forced to rummage around in old, unauthoritative books to try and prove your case.

Here is a code of canon law link for at least the third time. Simply tell us where in the code the Church calls for the execution of heretics. If you do not provide this citation I will take that as proof that you cannot, and that the Church does not teach what you claim it teaches. The burden is on you. Prove your allegation by citing the canon law, or be marked as one who can not back up his allegations.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

 

[fix]

The Christian church does not approve of capital punishment. We who claim to be Christian must NOT think ourselves beyond the grace of Jesus Christ. If we do we are under judgement of the law ourselves. That is the New Testament delivered to the apostles.

And when others who also claim to be Christian understand differently how do I know which is correct?

 

[robert_newman]

Let’s be honest. Today on this thread we have had numerous Roman Catholics agreeing that the death penalty is correct for heretics. Mary Rose for example. And others. They are being honest.

I repeat, unless you can show that canon law has changed you must agree that it has NOT changed.

The onus is on you to show it has changed. I have showed evidence that it has NOT changed.

If you believe these books (which previously were said not to exist) do not contain the things I quoted from them, then, at that time, you can call me a liar. But all I have said to you is true and these works are obtainable in any good Catholic library. They were written FOR Catholics and I again must insist that you read them if you really wish to argue like this.

A wise man is one who has heard both points of view. I have pointed to your own Catholic sources. I cannot produce photocopies but I am quite sure you can obtain them yourself from the British Library or any other library if you really want to have physical evidence of their content.

I did not manufacture these contents. I have told you exactly what is contained in these works. I have also told you of letters approving of them. And you have seen your own colleagues agreeing with their content.

Therefore, Sir, the onus is on you to produce evidence that canon law and the treatment of heretics has changed within the Roman Catholic Church. If you cannot provide even a single reference then, in all fairness, we must conclude that the position of Rome remains the same now on heretics as it was in the Middle Ages.

So the choice is entirely yours. You can do nothing. Or you can check these things for yourself. Either way, I am responsible for the truth, the same as you.

That is only fair and just.

Yours in Christian Service