Catholic history is disturbing

[rpp]

St. Augustine (AD 354-430) said, “There cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation”, and held that abortion required penance only for the sexual aspect of the sin.

He and other early Christian theologians believed, as had Aristotle centuries before, that “animation”, or the coming alive of the fetus, occurred forty days after conception for a boy and eighty days after conception for a girl. The conclusion that early abortion is not homicide is contained in the first authoritative collection of canon law accepted by the [Catholic] church in 1140. As this collection was used as an instruction manual for priests until the new Code of Canon Law of 1917, its view of abortion has had great influence.

At the beginning of the 13th century, Pope Innocent III wrote that “quickening” “the time when a woman first feels the fetus move within her” was the moment at which abortion became homicide; prior to quickening, abortion was a less serious sin.

Pope Gregory XIV agreed, designating quickening as occurring after a period of 116 days (about 17 weeks). His declaration in 1591 that early abortion was not grounds for excommunication continued to be the abortion policy of the Catholic Church until 1869.

The tolerant approach to abortion which had prevailed in the Roman Catholic Church for centuries ended at the end of the nineteenth century. In 1869, Pope Pius IX officially eliminated the Catholic distinction between an animated and a nonanimated fetus and required excommunication for abortions at any stage of pregnancy.
cbctrust.com/abortion.html#3

So what? As people began to learn more about reproduction and fetal development, it would stand to reason that the determination of when abortion was homicide would change to match that better understanding.

However, you misrepresented what St. Augustine had to say. St. Augustine never equated early-term abortion as essentially a grave sexual sin. It was always a separate and distinct sin, less grave than a later term abortion, but a grave sin nonetheless.

St. Augustine also stated that contraception was wrong.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

St. Augustine (AD 354-430) said, “There cannot yet be said to be a live soul in a body that lacks sensation”, and held that abortion required penance only for the sexual aspect of the sin…

If this was supposed to prove Fr Amborse claim about Pope Benedict correct, it doesn’t. You have yet to show what Pope Benedict taught. None of these quotes come from Benedict. Nor do any of these quotes even come close to saying that abortion is permitted. It was always a grave sin, no matter when they thought “quickening” occurred. Don’t you get that?

Here’s an analogy, 2nd degree murder has a lesser penalty than 1st degree murder. Does that prove that the law permits 2nd degree murder? No. They are both serious crimes. That one crime has a lesser penalty of another does not prove what Fr Ambrose claimed. Nor does any the quotes above prove that the Catholic Church permitted abortion. Abortion, no matter the ongoing debate as to when the “rational soul” is infused in the body, has ALWAYS been a serious crime according to ecclesiastical law. ALWAYS.

By the way, “when” the body is infused with a rational soul is still a matter of free opinion, yet that has no impact on the constant teaching of the Church that ABORTION IS A GRAVE SIN.

According to Cardinal Ratzinger (now Pope Benedict XVI):

This declaration expressly leaves aside the question of the moment when the spiritual soul is infused. There is not a unanimous tradition on this point and authors are as yet in disagreement. For some it dates from the first instant; for others it could not at least precede nidation. It is not within the competence of science to decide between these views, because the existence of an immortal soul is not a question in its field. It is a philosophical problem from which our moral affirmation remains independent for two reasons: (1) supposing a belated animation, there is still nothing less than a human life, preparing for and calling for a soul in which the nature received from parents is completed, (2) on the other hand, it suffices that this presence of the soul be probable (and one can never prove the contrary) in order that the taking of life involve accepting the risk of killing a man, not only waiting for, but already in possession of his soul.

(SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH, Declaration on Procured Abortion, 12-13: AAS 66 (1974)) 738.

 

[itsjustdave1988]

To be fair to Father Ambrose, he did reply to you. This answer to you from Father Ambrose came up on a goodle search of Catholic Answers. He gave you the quotes which I have now given you.

He gave quotes that had nothing to do with his claim about Pope Benedict. His reply (as well as yours) STILL does not support that the Church EVER permitted abortion. When I called him on his error, he simply lifted a bunch of unrelated quotes from another web page. When I asked for him to actually answer his claim with real support, he either couldn’t or wouldn’t.

Where does it say in any of the quotes above, or in any other quotes that the Catholic Church permitted abortion?

The quotes you give merely stated that the PENALTY for abortion varied throughout the past 2000 years. I agree. But there was ALWAYS penance demanded for the sin of abortion. ALWAYS. This necessarily means that it must have ALWAYS been a MORTAL SIN, which is never, as Fr Ambose claimed “permitted.”

The weak argument put forth by Fr Ambrose and repeated by you only shows that you know very little about Catholic moral theology and the historical canonical opposition against abortion which has been constant for the past 2000 years.

 

[Cinette]

I don’t care what Protestants say about Catholic history. Catholic history is marvellous, marvellous! If it wasn’t for the Catholic Church the quality of our lives would be considerably reduced.

If they want to believe lies, let them! It won’t change the truth! It won’t change the facts! It won’t change a thing!

Catholics will continue to be Catholics and bigots will continue to be bigots. They believe what they WANT to believe and, if they could, they would change history to match what they choose to believe.

Is that going to make a difference?

I don’t think so.:nope: :nope: :ehh:

 

[benedictus2]

He gave quotes that had nothing to do with his claim about Pope Benedict. His reply (as well as yours) STILL does not support that the Church EVER permitted abortion. When I called him on his error, he simply lifted a bunch of unrelated quotes from another web page. When I asked for him to actually answer his claim with real support, he either couldn’t or wouldn’t.

---

Which is typical protestant response in this thread I have found.

 

[Cinette]

“To thine own self be true”

• Shakespeare

If you cannot be true to yourself you are lost! Why do people insist in believing lies?

:whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky:

 

[CWBetts]

“To thine own self be true”

• Shakespeare

If you cannot be true to yourself you are lost! Why do people insist in believing lies?

:whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky: :whacky:

People believe lies when believing the truth invalidates their belief system. THey woud rather continue in the lie than face the truth.

 

[rad]

He gave quotes that had nothing to do with his claim about Pope Benedict. His reply (as well as yours) STILL does not support that the Church EVER permitted abortion. When I called him on his error, he simply lifted a bunch of unrelated quotes from another web page. When I asked for him to actually answer his claim with real support, he either couldn’t or wouldn’t…

That discussion is on the Forum at

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=456215&highlight=saigir#post456215

Message 25 is an interesting insight into Fr Ambrose’s Irish interests. And if you look at the last message in the thread he explains why he is unwilling to carry on the discussion in that particular section of the Forum.

 

[rad]

To Genisis315

“It would be perfectly just and in line with the teaching of the Church if a completely Catholic country want to prevent missionaries of foreign sects or other agitators from disturbing the peace and unity of that nation.”

I totally disagree. God gave us all free will and the Concordata is not the way to go. One can never enforce such a thing - Even God would not do that!

The restriction of freedom of religion seems to have been taught by the Pope before Vatican II.

Pope Pius IX taught

“The State must forbid non-Catholic religions” and “Only Catholics have the right to religious liberty.”
Pius IX, D.1690, 1699

These statements of the Pope are in “The Sources of Catholic Dogma,” edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B.Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955

 

[rad]

If they want to believe lies, let them! It won’t change the truth! It won’t change the facts! It won’t change a thing!

Why do people insist in believing lies?

Dear Cinette,

This is very unkind. I always assume that the people with whom I am talking are sincere in their beliefs. I have never discovered them to be anything else.

 

[CWBetts]

Dear Cinette,

This is very unkind. I always assume that the people with whom I am talking are sincere in their beliefs. I have never discovered them to be anything else.

Sincerity is not a synonym for veracity. They may believe it to be true, but that does not make it so.

 

[Cinette]

The restriction of freedom of religion seems to have been taught by the Pope before Vatican II.

Pope Pius IX taught

“The State must forbid non-Catholic religions” and “Only Catholics have the right to religious liberty.”
Pius IX, D.1690, 1699

These statements of the Pope are in “The Sources of Catholic Dogma,” edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B.Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955

If that is true I condemn it. It would not be an “article of faith” I am sure.

The Concordata was a terrible thing.

 

[Cinette]

Dear Cinette,

This is very unkind. I always assume that the people with whom I am talking are sincere in their beliefs. I have never discovered them to be anything else.

No that is not unkind at all. I am referring to certain people who attack us for our beliefs all the time.

I belong to two parishes - we attend daily Mass at a Church within two blocks from our home - on Sundays we go a little further to another Parish which is about 5 kms away and which is run by Jesuits. There is a woman who usually occupies a bench near us - whenever there are talks in the Church Hall her husband usually accompanies her. He is an atheist and he defends the Catholic Church because he recognises the immense good it has done and continues to do. However, he does not believe in God. I don’t attack him for that. We are good friends. My own husband was an atheist and we were married for almost 40 years before he converted. We have always had a happy marriage. So I am tolerant of people who do not believe as I do.

 

[rad]

Sincerity is not a synonym for veracity. They may believe it to be true, but that does not make it so.

Good point! Here are two sincere but contradictory statements from the Pope

a. The State must forbid non-Catholic religions.
Pope Pius IX

b. The State cannot forbid non-Catholic religions.
Pope John Paul II

a.“The Sources of Catholic Dogma”
edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B. Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955

b. “The Freedom of Conscience and Religion”
letter of John Paul II to the heads of state of the nations who signed the Helsinki Final Act., Sept. 1, 1980, Pauline Books

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The restriction of freedom of religion seems to have been taught by the Pope before Vatican II.

Pope Pius IX taught

“The State must forbid non-Catholic religions” and “Only Catholics have the right to religious liberty.”
Pius IX, D.1690, 1699

These statements of the Pope are in “The Sources of Catholic Dogma,” edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B.Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955

Boy, these non-Catholic Christians sure think they know so much of the Catholic church…what about their own? Boring?

 

[CWBetts]

Good point! Here are two sincere but contradictory statements from the Pope

a. The State must forbid non-Catholic religions.
Pope Pius IX

b. The State cannot forbid non-Catholic religions.
Pope John Paul II

a.“The Sources of Catholic Dogma”
edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B. Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955

b. “The Freedom of Conscience and Religion”
letter of John Paul II to the heads of state of the nations who signed the Helsinki Final Act., Sept. 1, 1980, Pauline Books

Protestants must have a gift for ignoring context. Pope Pius IX was reigning in the midst of the Reformation. At that time, to allow non-Catholic religions contributed to social unrest. All states at the time had state religions. Do your history. Catholicsm was treason in England. The Plymouth COlony required residents to be Calvinist. To argue that the Catholic CHurch alone restricted religous liberty is an utter falsehood.

 

[rad]

Protestants must have a gift for ignoring context. Pope Pius IX was reigning in the midst of the Reformation.

Huh?

Pius IX died only in 1878, hundreds of years after the Reformation.

Do your history.

Yes.

To argue that the Catholic CHurch alone restricted religous liberty is an utter falsehood.

Nobody, and certainly not I, have argued that.

 

[Chancellare]

Good point! Here are two sincere but contradictory statements from the Pope

a. The State must forbid non-Catholic religions.
Pope Pius IX

b. The State cannot forbid non-Catholic religions.
Pope John Paul II

a.“The Sources of Catholic Dogma”
edited by Fr. Henry Densinger, B. Herder Book Co., Imprimatur, 1955

b. “The Freedom of Conscience and Religion”
letter of John Paul II to the heads of state of the nations who signed the Helsinki Final Act., Sept. 1, 1980, Pauline Books

Good point!
Luther preached single predestination while Calvin double predestination. One of them Protestant Church Founders must be insincere!
Which one are you?

 

[rad]

Good point!
Luther preached single predestination while Calvin double predestination. One of them Protestant Church Founders must be insincere!
Which one are you?

Luther wrote:

“All things whatever arise from, and depend on, the divine appointment; whereby it was foreordained who should receive the word of life, and who should disbelieve it; who should be delivered from their sins, and who should be hardened in them; and who should be justified and who should be condemned.”

That reads like double predestination.

 

[Cinette]

Protestants must have a gift for ignoring context. Pope Pius IX was reigning in the midst of the Reformation. At that time, to allow non-Catholic religions contributed to social unrest. All states at the time had state religions. Do your history. Catholicsm was treason in England. The Plymouth COlony required residents to be Calvinist. To argue that the Catholic CHurch alone restricted religous liberty is an utter falsehood.

Thank you for the explanation. Of course, yes! One has to look at it in context. Actually someone posted a website link called “Protestant Inquisition” and I have been meaning to look it up.

Also, in regard to the Inquisition, the actual facts about it is in contrast to what many Protestants like to make it out to be.