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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Have you ever read U.S. history? Or the history of well…anything involving human beings? Seems a certain theme arises again and again…human beings are sinners in need of Divine mercy.
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Methodi
Guest
The reason we are shocked,is that we dont expect to find these dreadful stories & scandals that took place in the church. Other places yes,the church, noHave you ever read U.S. history? Or the history of well…anything involving human beings? Seems a certain theme arises again and again…human beings are sinners in need of Divine mercy.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Keep in mind too, sometimes you read some authors and they paint a picture of history that’s incredibly exaggerated. For instance…
I’ve read some sources which claim “100 million” killed during the inquisition…really? 100 million? How is that possible?
Fact is, the Inquisition was spread over 6 1/2 centuries and was limited to very specific areas of Europe.
1184 - the Medieval Inquisition. It was relatively insignificant and died out when Cartharism disappeared.
1478 - the Spanish Inquisition. This is the biggie, it lasted 3 centuries. This is the one that Fundamentalists offer such ever-growing bogus claims as 20 million, 95 million, etc. as being killed.
1542 - the Roman Inquisition. This was the one in which Galileo was tried. It was the least active and most benign.
There is considerable dispute even among honest historians regarding how many deaths occurred under the Spanish Inquisition. Some historians asserting fewer than three thousand death sentences during the three centuries, others putting the figure higher.
However, as a point of comparison, there were eight hundred executions a year during the early post-Reformation period in Protestant England, where the Inquistion never operated (according to Sir James Stephens’ “History of English Criminal Law”).
Likewise, in Protestant countries there were many burned at the stake for witchcraft and executed for heresy. In 1553, Calvin had Michael Servetus, a fellow Protestant, arrested on charges of heresy. Calvin ordered him to be burned at the stake
From Encyclopedia of Word History (non-Catholic) by Peter N. Stearns, ed., et al:
Not until modern times did the population of the whole of Europe approach 95 million. The Inquisition did not operate in England, Scandinavia, Northern Europe, or Eastern Europe. In was confined almost entirely to southern France, Italy, and Spain. The present-day population of France, Spain, and Italy is about 150 million.
The above “estimate” is absurb, especially in light of a (non-Catholic) BBC study which aired in a documentary called “The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition” (June 9th, 1995), in which **they estimate 3000 to 5000 people who died during the Inquisition’s 350 year history. **
Additionally, respected non-Catholic scholar Edward Peters, in his work, Inquisition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989, p. 87), states:
***The black death, which killed about a third of Europe’s population caused major changes in the social structure. ***Not so with the Inquisition, precisely because the number of victims is no where near the ridiculous estimates given by some biased against Catholicism. In fact, Spain was the socio-political powerhouse in the period immediately following the Spanish Inquisition. This would have been unlikely given the millions and millions who supposedly died in those three centuries.
I’ve read some sources which claim “100 million” killed during the inquisition…really? 100 million? How is that possible?
Fact is, the Inquisition was spread over 6 1/2 centuries and was limited to very specific areas of Europe.
1184 - the Medieval Inquisition. It was relatively insignificant and died out when Cartharism disappeared.
1478 - the Spanish Inquisition. This is the biggie, it lasted 3 centuries. This is the one that Fundamentalists offer such ever-growing bogus claims as 20 million, 95 million, etc. as being killed.
1542 - the Roman Inquisition. This was the one in which Galileo was tried. It was the least active and most benign.
There is considerable dispute even among honest historians regarding how many deaths occurred under the Spanish Inquisition. Some historians asserting fewer than three thousand death sentences during the three centuries, others putting the figure higher.
However, as a point of comparison, there were eight hundred executions a year during the early post-Reformation period in Protestant England, where the Inquistion never operated (according to Sir James Stephens’ “History of English Criminal Law”).
Likewise, in Protestant countries there were many burned at the stake for witchcraft and executed for heresy. In 1553, Calvin had Michael Servetus, a fellow Protestant, arrested on charges of heresy. Calvin ordered him to be burned at the stake
From Encyclopedia of Word History (non-Catholic) by Peter N. Stearns, ed., et al:
Could the number of deaths during the inquisition have possibly been even close to “100 million”?
Not until modern times did the population of the whole of Europe approach 95 million. The Inquisition did not operate in England, Scandinavia, Northern Europe, or Eastern Europe. In was confined almost entirely to southern France, Italy, and Spain. The present-day population of France, Spain, and Italy is about 150 million.
To kill 100 million during the inquisition, the Catholic Church would have had to kill every man, woman, and child in all of Europe, then import millions more just to kill them too. http://theologyreview.com/forums/images/smilies/rolleyes.gif
The above “estimate” is absurb, especially in light of a (non-Catholic) BBC study which aired in a documentary called “The Myth of the Spanish Inquisition” (June 9th, 1995), in which **they estimate 3000 to 5000 people who died during the Inquisition’s 350 year history. **
Additionally, respected non-Catholic scholar Edward Peters, in his work, Inquisition (Berkeley: University of California Press, 1989, p. 87), states:
As a comparison, according to the Encyclopedia of Word History:
[note: this period also includes the Hundred Years’ War (1337–1453) between England and France]
***The black death, which killed about a third of Europe’s population caused major changes in the social structure. ***Not so with the Inquisition, precisely because the number of victims is no where near the ridiculous estimates given by some biased against Catholicism. In fact, Spain was the socio-political powerhouse in the period immediately following the Spanish Inquisition. This would have been unlikely given the millions and millions who supposedly died in those three centuries.
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
Why wouldn’t you expect members of the Church to be sinners? Doesn’t your Bible tell you this would be so?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I recommend historians who have scholastic integrity and rigor. For instance, the incredibly detailed multi-volume series called The History Of Christendom, by **Warren H. Carroll, PhD.
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- Founding Of Christendom: History Of Christendom Vol 1 (History of Christendom)
- Building Of Christendom: History Of Christendom Vol 2 (A History of Christendom, Vol. 2)
- Glory Of Christendom: History Of Christendom Vol 3 (History of Christendom Series ; Vol. III)
- Cleaving Of Christendom: History Of Christendom Vol 4
- The Revolution Against Christendom: A History of Christendom, Vol. 5 (A History of Christendom)
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Methodi
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No body wants to hear bad stories about their Priest or their church. Yes its there,but we somehow dont want to face it.I read somewhere that the Catholic church is deeply rooted in homosexuality,do U Like to hear that?
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itsjustdave1988
Guest
I’m not afraid to hear the truth, as it is the truth that sets us free. However, sometimes error is presented as though it were true.
There has been scandalous sex abuse by a very small number of Catholic priests. However, here’s another testimony: of all the men I’ve ever known personally in my life, the Catholic priests in my life have been the most trustworthy men I’ve ever met. The humility I’ve witnessed in my priests have truly astonished me. These kind of men are the saints that we often read about in the “Lives of the Saints.” These men don’t make the headlines much, because they are humble, and so they don’t seek recognition. But, they do bring to light, for those who take notice, the incredible holiness that is possible in a human being who takes serious the call to imitate Christ.
I am truly grateful for their witness and teaching, as they, along with the many saints before them, have made a big difference in showing me the face of God.
Do these extraodinary men who bring holiness to the ordinary moments in our lives, do they make the history books? Not very often. But they are out there just the same in a much larger force than one might expect or read about in the media. Seek to know them. Seek to imitate them. They are the true history and heritage of the Catholic faith.
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CWBetts
Guest
I am willing to defend LEGITAMITE allegations against the Church, but not wild stories with no evidence. Faithful Catholics need to be grounded enough in the faith to defend against libelous attacks with little or no effort, and this one is easily defended against with the Catechism.
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Methodi
Guest
I agree with you,I am so very thankful for so many wonderful priests. So many of them are awesome!
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RobHom
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When reading “history”…one must be cautious as to the source of the “history”.
I’ve seen and read more nonsense about the Church…than any other organization on the planet. “Disinformation” is the stock in trade for some people…
I don’t worry about it. Besides, when dealing with certain things during certain periods in time…one must put things in a political as well as historical perspective to actually understand what was going on, as well as what really did happen.
Most of what is written…is easily “debunked” as bogus…
I’ve seen and read more nonsense about the Church…than any other organization on the planet. “Disinformation” is the stock in trade for some people…
I don’t worry about it. Besides, when dealing with certain things during certain periods in time…one must put things in a political as well as historical perspective to actually understand what was going on, as well as what really did happen.
Most of what is written…is easily “debunked” as bogus…
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Peter_J
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I still don’t see how that’s a “promotion”. (Although I notice that wikipedia does use the word “promotion”.)
Thanks for the info. I wasn’t aware of all that. Guess I’ll have to give it some thought.
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Peter_J
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Better be careful what you say about Fr. Corapi – a lot of the Protestants around here are big fans of his.
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suupah
Guest
uhm the sale of indulgences ring a bell? the sale of indulgences was used to raise money to build that basilica.
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suupah
Guest
you are absolutely right. the only problem i have here are the claims that the Catholic church makes of itself. Our pope is referred to as “your holiness”. THink about the implication of that title. The closer i became to God the more keenly aware of my sinfulness i became and the less i wanted to be considered in anyway shape or form holy. Can’t understand why anyone would accept the title, “your holiness”. But if you are going to accept titles such as these there should be something that sets you apart from mere human organizations. There for there is a higher standard for the church sealed in the spirit and guided by christ.Have you ever read U.S. history? Or the history of well…anything involving human beings? Seems a certain theme arises again and again…human beings are sinners in need of Divine mercy.
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Snow
Guest
This thread is about Catholic History. You seem to think Joseph Smith is relevant to that discussion. What a bore.
You said that “nothing” I said about is suppported by history: Here are somethings I said:
The selection of book in the Bible started long before there was a Catholic Church.
The Catholic Church had a significant role in finalizing the New Testament.
Not everyone agrees with the Catholic canon.
The majority of Bible in the world today differ from the Catholic Bible.
Four things… take your pick or pick all of them. I challenge you to a debate on any of all of those things. You start. Remember that your claim is that none of those things is supported by history. My counter claim is that they are supported by history.
Please use legitimate historical sources rather than simple apologetic sources. Go ahead and get started. I’ll join in when I get back from Yosemite.
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joseph_virgen
Guest
i love the mystical body of the Nazarene. does it have faults, yes. my own father and mother have faults, and i love them dearly.
moreover, the catholic church, its its 2000 plus years in existence has established more orphanages, hospitals, welfare agencies and schools than any other organization in the world------------------------in the whole world. that is enough for me and it should be enough for you and anybody else who questions its existence.
moreover, the catholic church, its its 2000 plus years in existence has established more orphanages, hospitals, welfare agencies and schools than any other organization in the world------------------------in the whole world. that is enough for me and it should be enough for you and anybody else who questions its existence.
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JMJ_coder
Guest
Judges in England used to be called ‘your worship’ (don’t know if they still are). Judges in this country are called ‘your honor’ and I know many of them aren’t so honorable. Members of royalty are called ‘your highness’, young boys are called ‘master’ and when they grow up are called ‘mister’ (a derivative spelling).
These titles aren’t referring to qualities or attributes that the subject possesses (though they should hopefully possess them), but are a term of respect for the position held. I remember a scene from the miniseries Brothers. The one commanding officer, who felt betrayed, was passing his former subordinate, now superior officer (who he felt betrayed by) and he didn’t salute him. The superior officer told him “we salute the rank, not the man”.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
There are so many misinformed people on this thread it isn’t funny. Suupah, stop insulting YOUR faith and start thinking of the good the church does. I am tired of hearing about the priest scandal when I told you and everybody else here about WWW.REFORMATION.COM. Why don’t you say something about that website? IT UNFORTUNATELY IS IN EVERY CHURCH WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT. MORE SO IN OTHERS! Furthermore why don’t you put yourself in his (Cardinal Law’s) position? You don’t know what you would do if you were he.
I spoke to him in Rome and although I won’t disclose what was said between us as it is no one’s business, he is a kind and gentle man. He is a man of God whether you want to hear it or not. God will punish not you, not I, not others, but God will give final judgement. Take the plank out of your own eye, least you take it out of your neighbor’s.
I spoke to him in Rome and although I won’t disclose what was said between us as it is no one’s business, he is a kind and gentle man. He is a man of God whether you want to hear it or not. God will punish not you, not I, not others, but God will give final judgement. Take the plank out of your own eye, least you take it out of your neighbor’s.
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LDNCatholic
Guest
I asked for a source.
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Peter_J
Guest
I admit it does seem a little strange, but keep in mind that titles like that aren’t limited to the Pope, or even to Catholics. For example, the Patriarch of Constantinople is addessed as “Your All Holiness”.
Perhaps that the reason for the title: so that the Pope will be held to a higher standard.
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