Catholic history is disturbing

[Cinette]

I don’t understand why some have a problem understanding the infallibility. It isn’t about humans but about God. If the church Jesus established isn’t infallible, it’s like saying He abandonned it. Reading about the too many denominations of the reformation, the frustration of many with their churches, the many lost between denoms, and the different teachings here and there, i can’t see it as something good. Does the church have bad members? it surely does…even the apostles abandonned Jesus at some time.

What you say is correct and true.

Debating with the likes of Hisalone is a futile exercise. He is bent on attack. In fact, it appears that this is a hobby of his - attacking the Catholic Church.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**Has anyone else delved into Catholic history and found the utter corruption and moral depravity shocking? **

**Protestants did the same thing when they got the chance. Ever hear of the Salem Village witch trials?

I’m sure that there are things in the history of YOUR family that would not benefit from close inspection. Does that mean that you personally are guilty of it?

These things happened not BECAUSE of the Church and her teachings, BUT IN SPITE OF THEM.**

 

[Gloria_Patri]

I hope the OP will expend as much energy researching the saints as they have the sinners. It seems a much more spiritually beneficial use of our time.

 

[Cinette]

I hope the OP will expend as much energy researching the saints as they have the sinners. It seems a much more spiritually beneficial use of our time.

Absolutely!

The Catholic Church is the Church founded by Jesus. It is the oldest and largest Christian Church. It has more sinners than any other Christian church and it has more holy men, women and Saints than any other Christian church.

It is good to debate, exchange views and learn. I continue to learn much from these forums. I love Protestants. Many of them are valuable contributors to the debates on these forums. Many are intelligent and genuinely in pursuit of truth.

It is a pity that we have to tolerate bigots whose sole purpose is to attack and insult - but then life is like that. Also, Jesus did say that the devil would lurk around and attack but he also promised that the gates of hades would not prevail.

Blessings
Cinette

 

[benedictus2]

I hope the OP will expend as much energy researching the saints as they have the sinners. It seems a much more spiritually beneficial use of our time.

Although I must say that not hiding from the dark side of our history is a positive thing. Psychologically, only when we confront our dark side can we find true healing.

One might be surprised as well that it might not be as dark as one thought. By ignoring it, one then forgets that there is a great avenue for growth open even at those times when it looks like goodness has been totally defeated by evil.

Take for example the Inquisition. Once Pope John Paul II commisioned the study and opened the archives, this period that we have been so afraid to address has turned out to be not as bad as we thought. Some have said 9 million were killed. But now that we have addressed this we find out that instead of 9million it was actually 6000 in a span of 500 years.

It was bad, but way not as bad as thought.

We also learn about the evil of the Cathars heresy that the first Inquisition was commissioned to counter.

If we don’t bring it out in the open, then the lies that have been propagated about it will continue to be spread.

I think some of us are now better equipped to defend our faith after reading some of the posts in this thread. At the very least we would have started reading more about it.

I do agree though that we should also highlight the wonders: the saints, the martyrs, the miracles. Because it is precisely at what seems to be the lowest points in our history that God raises the great saints, to show us that He has kept His promise that He will not allow the gates of Hell to prevail.

We have to remember that it was at the point on the Cross when death seems to have triumphed that God purchased us all for life eternal.

 

[benedictus2]

And so much more. After declaring that everyone should interpret the Bible on their own, they then proceeded to kill those who did exactly just that.

I’m sure that there are things in the history of YOUR family that would not benefit from close inspection. Does that mean that you personally are guilty of it?

These things happened not BECAUSE of the Church and her teachings, BUT IN SPITE OF THEM.

**

**

 

[Chancellare]

If we don’t bring it out in the open, then the lies that have been propagated about it will continue to be spread.

I think some of us are now better equipped to defend our faith after reading some of the posts in this thread. At the very least we would have started reading more about it.

I agree.
It goes way back, though. Our Early Fathers also had to confront heresies left and right and in the process produced a whole wealth of literature for apologetics.

 

[benedictus2]

But it has taught error. Therefore would you call the Catholic Church is not what you calim it to be,

What error?

Another unsubtstantiated claim, from the perpetrator of lies hmmmm?

 

[benedictus2]

The Reformation was Gods way of bringing abot much needed change. Prior to The Reformation there was much corruption and abuse. What is beyond the pale is for those to claim that through centuries of apostasy the Roman Chuch is still the pilar of faith and the fullness of truth.

The Deformation (oops “reformation”) was the devil’s way of leading away people from Christ’s true church.

The reformation after declaring that everyone should be allowed to interpret the Bible their own way, tortured and killed those who did exactly that.

The problem is, all your claims are not supported by the Bible nor by History.

Luther himself said that the protestants were more avaricious, more lustful, generally more corrupt than those they were hoping to reform.

A few quotes from Martin Luther from this website just to show you an example of his evil.

INTOLERANCE OF OTHER CHRISTIANS
“That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. … Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine … For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? … Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches … and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound … to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders … Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then … we conclude that … the stubborn sectaries must be put to death.”
Source: Pamphlet of 1536" in Dave Armstrong.* "*Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
(Janssen, X, 222-223; pamphlet of 1536)
“If I had all the Franciscan friars in one house, I would set fire to it. … To the fire with them!”
Source: Dave Armstrong.* Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition*
(Grisar, VI, 247; *Table Talk *[edited by Mathesius], 180; summer 1540)

 

[benedictus2]

Haven’t read the thread, so maybe someone has said this. Sure there are many horrible episodes in Catholic history. But you have to remember that the Catholic Church inherited the most powerful and brutal empire that the world had ever seen. Our earthly victory with Constantine is a bittersweet event. I think they handled it quite well, considering.

That kind of rational argument will go over Hisalone’s head

 

[inJESUS]

I hope the OP will expend as much energy researching the saints as they have the sinners. It seems a much more spiritually beneficial use of our time.

right on. Should one forsake Jesus because of Judas?

Do some people have a problem only with the Roman Catholic church or do they extend it to the Eastern one?

 

[benedictus2]

right on. Should one forsake Jesus because of Judas?

Do some people have a problem only with the Roman Catholic church or do they extend it to the Eastern one?

Only the Catholic Church. With so much vitriol directed at us we must be doing something right.

 

[inJESUS]

Only the Catholic Church. With so much vitriol directed at us we must be doing something right.

no i meant, do they extend the bad behaviors/immorality to the Eastern Catholic Church as well?because though we are in communion with Rome, we do not share the same history.

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

The Deformation (oops “reformation”) was the devil’s way of leading away people from Christ’s true church.

The reformation after declaring that everyone should be allowed to interpret the Bible their own way, tortured and killed those who did exactly that.

The problem is, all your claims are not supported by the Bible nor by History.

Luther himself said that the protestants were more avaricious, more lustful, generally more corrupt than those they were hoping to reform.

A few quotes from Martin Luther from this website just to show you an example of his evil.

INTOLERANCE OF OTHER CHRISTIANS
“That seditious articles of doctrine should be punished by the sword needed no further proof. For the rest, the Anabaptists hold tenets relating to infant baptism, original sin, and inspiration, which have no connection with the Word of God, and are indeed opposed to it. … Secular authorities are also bound to restrain and punish avowedly false doctrine … For think what disaster would ensue if children were not baptized? … Besides this the Anabaptists separate themselves from the churches … and they set up a ministry and congregation of their own, which is also contrary to the command of God. From all this it becomes clear that the secular authorities are bound … to inflict corporal punishment on the offenders … Also when it is a case of only upholding some spiritual tenet, such as infant baptism, original sin, and unnecessary separation, then … we conclude that … the stubborn sectaries must be put to death.”
Source: Dave Armstrong.* "*Pamphlet of 1536" in Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition
(Janssen, X, 222-223; pamphlet of 1536)
“If I had all the Franciscan friars in one house, I would set fire to it. … To the fire with them!”
Source: Dave Armstrong.* Martin Luther and The Protestant Inquisition*
(Grisar, VI, 247; *Table Talk *[edited by Mathesius], 180; summer 1540)

But when I have quoted evil from Luther’s Works, people on these forums have called me names…go figure.

 

[JMJ_coder]

So you agree with the selling of positions to the highest bidder?

Never has been part of Catholic teaching (though some still sinned against this teaching). It has been condemned since the very beginning (read Acts and the issue of Simon the Magician). The Council of Trent re-confirmed this condemnation.

So is demanding taxes be paid by civil governments of God or of Satan?

I don’t know. But, how is this much different in general than tax-exempt status that all recognized religions share today?

So is the teaching of a different gospel of God or of Satan?

The only one teaching a different Gospel are the Protestants.

Is the debauchery at all levels for centuries by priests, bishops cardinals and popes of God or of Satan?

Please. There have been by far more holy men in the clergy than delinquents. Also remember, the Church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum of Saints.

Do not confuse the sins of certain members, with the holiness of the Church and the infallibility of the Magisterium.

 

[requiemaeturnum]

What is disturbing? Bellum Sacrum? The Inquisition(s)?

Trust me, the Church was 100% justified in the Crusades and Inquisitions.

 

[Hisalone]

That kind of rational argument will go over Hisalone’s head

No The Roman Church sold its soul to insure its security in Constatine.

 

[Hisalone]

What is disturbing? Bellum Sacrum? The Inquisition(s)?

Trust me, the Church was 100% justified in the Crusades and Inquisitions.

Selling of church offices.
False Gospel.
Demanding taxes be paid by civil governmants.
persection of bible Christians.

 

[CWBetts]

Selling of church offices.
False Gospel.
Demanding taxes be paid by civil governmants.
persection of bible Christians.

Hogwash. First, the Catlolic church has promulgated the true Gospel of Christ.
Second, the financial corrution you mentioned were the fault of civil governments, notthe Vatican.
Third, what about practicing Catholicism being declared an act of treason in England, ounishable by death, hmmmm

 

[ralphinal]

Selling of church offices.
False Gospel.
Demanding taxes be paid by civil governmants.
persection of bible Christians.

Ah, and so I take it that you are a Trail of Blood person?