Catholic history is disturbing

[Symux]

I feel sorry for that ex-nun and that ex-priest. I can imagine the agony they must suffer when they think on what they turned their backs. I am willing to bet that.

I pity them as well. They, or at least she taught at St. Joe’s College at the UofA. I can’t imagine what feelings they would have after taking the vows they did. I feel torn as it is about leaving the church, I can’t even imagine what they would feel.

 

[benedictus2]

This is a good explanation. A New York Times article from 1901.

query.nytimes.com/mem/archive-free/pdf?_r=1&res=9F00E2D71E39E733A25756C2A9679D946097D6CF

If you are saying that because we did not have copies of the Bible we are ignorant of scriptures then you are wrong.

Posession of a Bible is not necessary to know the Bible although it is highly recommended to own one for private reading.

In the Mass on Sundays we have 1 reading from the OT, Psalms, 1 reading from the Letters, then a reading from the Gospel.

Daily Mass: 1 reading from either OT or Letters, Psalms, Gospel.

In the 3 year liturgical cycle, the faithful would have heard the entire Bible proclaimed.

At Easter Vigil, you have 5 readings from the different books of the Bible.

Can the protestant churches say the same?

Because each pastor decides on the readings, they only read their favourite passages ignoring “hard” passages.

I asked a friend of mine how many readings they do on a Sunday and he said only 1.

The good thing about the way the Church has structured the readings as well is that it shows you the link between the old and the new testaments.

You have to bear in mind that for almost 1500 years, before the printing press, this is how the people came to know the Bible.

 

[Cinette]

I pity them as well. They, or at least she taught at St. Joe’s College at the UofA. I can’t imagine what feelings they would have after taking the vows they did. I feel torn as it is about leaving the church, I can’t even imagine what they would feel.

Many years ago when I was at my Convent Boarding School I read a book “Shepherds in the Mist” about priests who leave - how they suffer and agonise years later. Some even became alcoholic through their loneliness. I am sure there must be some who are happy in their decision but they continue faithful to the Church. I knew one who did a lot of work for the Church - in fact he was employed by the Diocese.

I knew one before he was ordained - we trained him and found him his first job - we were at his ordination and when he left to marry we employed him. Haven’t seen him in a few years and I have no way of knowing his heart.

I do think there should be an order for married priests.

As for Catholics who leave the Church, I was one of them. It was not a decision on my part - it started with not feeling like getting up for Mass on a Sunday and later I married an atheist and I just didn’t even give God a second thought for many years. I always had a social conscience and hated injustice and one day I just felt the urge to go to Church to pray for peace and it all started like that. Then as I learned more about my Faith I knew that if I had really known my Faith I would never have left.

 

[ron77nyc]

The idea that you need faith in order to be save is implicit. What would one be doing in the Church anyway without Faith? What makes you get ready for Mass on a Sunday if you don’t have Faith? What is the point? Ron don’t you think that common sense tells you that you couldn’t do any of these things without Faith?

People were afraid to miss Mass on Sunday. We all were taught we would go to hell for that. So yes it still requires faith to comply under that type of instruction but that’s the Old Testament.

 

[ron77nyc]

If you are saying that because we did not have copies of the Bible we are ignorant of scriptures then you are wrong.

Posession of a Bible is not necessary to know the Bible although it is highly recommended to own one for private reading.

In the Mass on Sundays we have 1 reading from the OT, Psalms, 1 reading from the Letters, then a reading from the Gospel.

Daily Mass: 1 reading from either OT or Letters, Psalms, Gospel.

In the 3 year liturgical cycle, the faithful would have heard the entire Bible proclaimed.

At Easter Vigil, you have 5 readings from the different books of the Bible.

Can the protestant churches say the same?

Because each pastor decides on the readings, they only read their favourite passages ignoring “hard” passages.

I asked a friend of mine how many readings they do on a Sunday and he said only 1.

The good thing about the way the Church has structured the readings as well is that it shows you the link between the old and the new testaments.

You have to bear in mind that for almost 1500 years, before the printing press, this is how the people came to know the Bible.

Many priests in churches that I’ve visited and masses that I see on television just do the readings and then go off to somewhere else when it’s time for the homily. I have family members who go to mass every Sunday and when I tell them they are saved by faith they look at me like I have a third eye growing out of my forehead.

 

[ralphinal]

I believe the Catholic Church is the true and original Christian Church but it was always lacking in the preaching of the true gospel. Before 1980 the Catholic Gospel did not include salvation by faith. Very few Catholics knew God’s plan of salvation. Today we have a pope who preaches the Gospel.

Can you provide proof that the Catholic Church did not include faith as a requirement for salvation? Can you provide proof of the Church not teaching the “true Gospel?”

Errors of the Church:

Everyone must be under the authority of the pope to be saved.
There is no salvation for those who commit suicide.
The unbaptised have no hope of salvation.

Skip the pope one. Someone else can explain that. I don’t feel like it right now.

The second one is based on suicide being murder. ONce the person dies, how can they repent? However, this speculation was created before mental illness was understood. Likewise, this speculation was created before the full possibilty of God’s mercy was taken into account. Besides, I would bet that a majority of Protestants have thought that same thing through the years.

The third is based 100% on what Jesus taught. However, there are other things that may be taken into account, like baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Again, a majority of Protestants have also accepted that through the years.

 

[ron77nyc]

Well thankfully in Ireland and Africa the priests are preaching the gospel. It wasn’t that way in New York. People were told just keep going to mass and confession and if you are lucky you’ll die before you get a chance to sin again and you’ll end up in purgatory if you do everything right…maybe…we hope.

 

[ron77nyc]

Can you provide proof that the Catholic Church did not include faith as a requirement for salvation? Can you provide proof of the Church not teaching the “true Gospel?”
I already did. Here it is again.

PROTESTANT MISSIONARIES IN RO- MAN CATHOLIC COUNTRIES.

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F00E2D71E39E733A25756C2A9679D946097D6CF

It continues today. Catholics are easy targets for cults also. Hopefully the Protestants will get to them before the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

Skip the pope one. Someone else can explain that. I don’t feel like it right now.

The second one is based on suicide being murder. ONce the person dies, how can they repent? However, this speculation was created before mental illness was understood. Likewise, this speculation was created before the full possibilty of God’s mercy was taken into account. Besides, I would bet that a majority of Protestants have thought that same thing through the years.

But they don’t claim to be infallible.

The third is based 100% on what Jesus taught. However, there are other things that may be taken into account, like baptism of desire and baptism of blood. Again, a majority of Protestants have also accepted that through the years.

I should have been more clear. There was never any hope for unbaptized infants but now there is.

 

[reteeks21]

You have just demonstrated ignorance. Of course there were excesses. Also perhaps you should delve into history more and learn EXACTLY what took place during those times.

You obviously have no idea why I said that. Good 'ole Rex said in post #516 catholics should be proud of the Crusades, and that is when I issued my response. What I mentioned is obviously not something I would call “glorious”. In #517 my point was made as well. I know what happened back then, and I know what was done by both sides. None of it is worth being called glorious. The intentions were good, but the results weren’t necessarily so. Before you call someone ignorant you might want to try and figure out why they said it.

 

[ralphinal]

PROTESTANT MISSIONARIES IN RO- MAN CATHOLIC COUNTRIES.

query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=9F00E2D71E39E733A25756C2A9679D946097D6CF

It continues today. Catholics are easy targets for cults also. Hopefully the Protestants will get to them before the Jehovah’s Witnesses.

So handing out the Bible is what Jesus commanded us to do? Your claim was that the Catholic CHurch, prior to 1980, did not preach the “true Gospel.” I asked you for proof of that. Not of proof that poor people did not have Bibles in 1901. I want to know what this “true Gospel” is and proof that we did not teach it.

But they don’t claim to be infallible.

Some act that way. I challenge you to question a Protestant minister who teaches this and see the answer. You might be wounded by their pride.

I should have been more clear. There was never any hope for unbaptized infants but now there is.

That is not what the Church taught. It was a theological speculation that infants who were not baptised could not partake in the full glory of heaven. However, as they were not given a chance on their own, they did not merit hell, either. Until the Church could be lead by the Holy Spirit, a speculative state known as limbo was proposed. Now, we assume that God, in his mercy, uses another means of judging them. Again, a good number of Protestants hold that unbaptised babies that die go to hell. Jesus said that you must be born again of water and the Spirit to enter the kingdom.

 

[Cinette]

Many priests in churches that I’ve visited and masses that I see on television just do the readings and then go off to somewhere else when it’s time for the homily. I have family members who go to mass every Sunday and when I tell them they are saved by faith they look at me like I have a third eye growing out of my forehead.

Oh Ron you astonish me!!! Really!!!

So you think that we are saved by faith alone?? Come on!!

 

[Hisalone]

And in your blindness you can’t see the truth, oing on and on about something that has already been refuted.

Who has judged the Church? You? Luther? Calvin?

No human being is able to judge the Church because it is Christ’s Church. It is answerable only to God.

Are saying that Christ Himself has found HIS OWN CHURCH WANTING? If I go by your reasoning, then you are saying Christ is to blame for the failings of His Church for after all, it was Him, who failed in His promise to preserve it from the gates of hell, if what you say is true.

Can you see where your reasoning is leading you to. You are calling your Lord and Saviour a LIAR.

I doubt that very much. It actually caused a lot of people to pray even more fervently for conversion. Some of the great saints came out during this time.

Prove that there were souls lost because of them. Those who were debauched were the ones who were lost if they were at all, not those around them. They never taught them to do bad things even when they were doing it themselves.

And what claims have we made? That we are perfect? That we not sinners? Never.

The only claim we have made is that the Church is the True Church of Christ. And that is not outlandish. That is true. If you read a bit more history you will find that out to be the truth as well. But you prefer to remain in entombed in darkness even when you are being called out to the light.

And how did you graft yourself unto Israel? The Catholic Church IS THE NEW ISRAEL.

Read “Honey from the Rock” and hear it straight from the mouth of Jews.

You are the one denying the Body of Christ by denying His Church here on it earth.

God has judged the Roman Cathoic Church that was the the Reformation.
Just as God judged the children of Isreal He has judged the Roman Church.

The gates of hell have not prevailed against Gods assembly—thanks to the Reformation.

It is the Church of Satan who claims to be Jews when they are not.

Isreal is Gods first born He is the Lord God of Isreal and no one has replaced His first love of whom He gave EVERLASTING promises and covenants.

Christs’ Assembly is on earth of whom I am part of.

 

[cazayoux]

What more could Satan want than to have a bunch of people believing that their church is perfect and their Pope is infallible. Trick one, and you get billions of followers.

I’m curious.
What do YOU think the Catholic Church means when we stated the pope is infallible? How do you think we define infallible?

In no way do we think any one person in the church, other than Jesus, is perfect. When you state that we believe that our ‘church is perfect’, what exactly are you referring to: the people, the doctrine, the practices, something else, all of the above?

michel

 

[cazayoux]

God has judged the Roman Cathoic Church that was the the Reformation.

The reformers judged Jesus’ church and left it.
How do you reform something by leaving it?

Luther was self-serving, not spirit-led.

michel

 

[chris_molter]

God has judged the Roman Cathoic Church that was the the Reformation.
Just as God judged the children of Isreal He has judged the Roman Church.

The gates of hell have not prevailed against Gods assembly—thanks to the Reformation.

Which Reformation? Which Reformer?

 

[ron77nyc]

Can you provide proof that the Catholic Church did not include faith as a requirement for salvation? Can you provide proof of the Church not teaching the “true Gospel?”

Since I can’t get you on the phone right now with Catholics at my office or some of my friends and relatives I will provide you with some websites that express my point.

catholicbiblestudy.org/
My name is J. D. Martinez. I was born into the Roman Catholic religion over fifty-five years ago. I was an alter boy, attended mass, catechism classes, Roman Catholic parochial school and received all the sacraments up through Holy Matrimony. One thing I never did was read the Bible and therefore never knew any Holy Scripture except for small portions from the Catechism and missals at mass. Although the Holy Scripture readings at mass are on a repeating 3-year cycle most Holy Scripture is not included in the cycle; I therefore missed most of God’s word.

pro-gospel.org/x2/
As a Roman Catholic for over 30 years, I was taught from the Catechism that salvation was by faith plus baptism, the sacraments, good works, law keeping, the sacrifice of the Mass, indulgences, purgatory and penance. According to God’s infallible word, this is another gospel that deceives Catholics with a false hope. Only when Catholics trust the Lord Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient savior will they know they are saved completely and forever!
Mike Gendron

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0701fea5.asp
An unwary Catholic who steps into the Protestant Bible study usually does so with no intention of leaving the Catholic Church. They just want to study the Bible. The Catholic usually has a hard time finding a good and welcoming Bible study in Catholic circles—but this is changing.

 

[Cinette]

God has judged the Roman Cathoic Church that was the the Reformation.
Just as God judged the children of Isreal He has judged the Roman Church.

The gates of hell have not prevailed against Gods assembly—thanks to the Reformation.

It is the Church of Satan who claims to be Jews when they are not.

Isreal is Gods first born He is the Lord God of Isreal and no one has replaced His first love of whom He gave EVERLASTING promises and covenants.

Christs’ Assembly is on earth of whom I am part of.

The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus founded. So you are saying that Jesus did not keep his promise to be with us always for 1500 years!! Where was the Holy Spirit for 1500 years?

Hisalone - you must really get your facts straight. Honestly, otherwise you will make a fool of yourself.

The Catholic Church is both Divine and Human.

As for the Reformation - just look how it has split into thousands of fragments. Come on!!!
:doh2: :doh2: :hypno: :doh2:

 

[ron77nyc]

Oh Ron you astonish me!!! Really!!!

So you think that we are saved by faith alone?? Come on!!

I never said faith alone.

 

[ralphinal]

Since I can’t get you on the phone right now with Catholics at my office or some of my friends and relatives I will provide you with some websites that express my point.

catholicbiblestudy.org/
My name is J. D. Martinez. I was born into the Roman Catholic religion over fifty-five years ago. I was an alter boy, attended mass, catechism classes, Roman Catholic parochial school and received all the sacraments up through Holy Matrimony. One thing I never did was read the Bible and therefore never knew any Holy Scripture except for small portions from the Catechism and missals at mass. Although the Holy Scripture readings at mass are on a repeating 3-year cycle most Holy Scripture is not included in the cycle; I therefore missed most of God’s word.

pro-gospel.org/x2/
As a Roman Catholic for over 30 years, I was taught from the Catechism that salvation was by faith plus baptism, the sacraments, good works, law keeping, the sacrifice of the Mass, indulgences, purgatory and penance. According to God’s infallible word, this is another gospel that deceives Catholics with a false hope. Only when Catholics trust the Lord Jesus Christ as their all-sufficient savior will they know they are saved completely and forever!
Mike Gendron

catholic.com/thisrock/2007/0701fea5.asp
An unwary Catholic who steps into the Protestant Bible study usually does so with no intention of leaving the Catholic Church. They just want to study the Bible. The Catholic usually has a hard time finding a good and welcoming Bible study in Catholic circles—but this is changing.

Thank you for these.

Now, the first two are anectdotal stories of one person’s perception. This does not constitute proof of a systemic failure in the Church. However, we can discuss each of these.

The first represents one man’s opinion of what the Bible says. I can pull many, many sources that counter him, and likewise, you can provide many that support him. However, this does not show that the Catholic CHurch is incorrect. I find it interesting that he left out part of the whole story about the cycle of readings in the Church. In order to hit the vast majority of the Bible, you must attend DAILY mass as well. THat is on a two-year cycle. If you do both, you will cover 70% or more of the bible, and almost all of the New Testement in a three year period.

THe second is also one man’s view. However, it is done in a more slick, professional way. Now, did you notice that he claims to have been Catholic, yet never once discusses why he left the faith? Not once does he paint a true picture of Catholic Teaching, only holding to the marching points of the Anti-Catholics.

The third is a little better. However, I do not see how this proves anything that you are claiming. It is mearly a warning about attending Bible Studies that are anti-Catholic.

 

[Cinette]

The reformers judged Jesus’ church and left it.
How do you reform something by leaving it?

Luther was self-serving, not spirit-led.

michel

You have just hit the nail on the head!