Catholic history is disturbing

[ron77nyc]

Thank you for these.

Now, the first two are anectdotal stories of one person’s perception. This does not constitute proof of a systemic failure in the Church. However, we can discuss each of these.

The first represents one man’s opinion of what the Bible says. I can pull many, many sources that counter him, and likewise, you can provide many that support him. However, this does not show that the Catholic CHurch is incorrect. I find it interesting that he left out part of the whole story about the cycle of readings in the Church. In order to hit the vast majority of the Bible, you must attend DAILY mass as well. THat is on a two-year cycle. If you do both, you will cover 70% or more of the bible, and almost all of the New Testement in a three year period.

 

[Cinette]

I never said faith alone.

Ok OK! Sorry but you did leave out works so I thought you meant faith…alone. This is what you said

“…when I tell them they are saved by faith they look at me like I have a third eye growing out of my forehead.”

Sorry!:imsorry: :imsorry: :imsorry:

 

[Hisalone]

The Catholic Church is the Church Jesus founded. So you are saying that Jesus did not keep his promise to be with us always for 1500 years!! Where was the Holy Spirit for 1500 years?

Hisalone - you must really get your facts straight. Honestly, otherwise you will make a fool of yourself.

The Catholic Church is both Divine and Human.

As for the Reformation - just look how it has split into thousands of fragments. Come on!!!
:doh2: :doh2: :hypno: :doh2:

What I am saying is that you are mistaken.
The Roman Catholic Church is not the Assembly of Gods people that is built on Jesus.

 

[ron77nyc]

Ok OK! Sorry but you did leave out works so I thought you meant faith…alone. This is what you said

“…when I tell them they are saved by faith they look at me like I have a third eye growing out of my forehead.”

Sorry!:imsorry: :imsorry: :imsorry:

I can’t hit them with everything at once.

 

[Cinette]

What I am saying is that you are mistaken.
The Roman Catholic Church is not the Assembly of Gods people that is built on Jesus.

“Where ignorance is bliss, it is folly to be wise”

 

[ralphinal]

ralphinal;4497077:

Thank you for these.

Now, the first two are anectdotal stories of one person’s perception. This does not constitute proof of a systemic failure in the Church. However, we can discuss each of these.

Most people go on Sunday.

That is true. However, no Church on earth covers the entire Bible on any collection of Sundays. Period. Besides, his assertion was that the Bible was not covered. That was false.

The third is from the website that this forum is on. catholic.com

Yes. You seem to be missing what I am asking.

Can you provide proof that the Catholic Church did not preach the Gospel prior to 1980? None of the articles you posted do that.

 

[ron77nyc]

However, no Church on earth covers the entire Bible on any collection of Sundays. Period. Besides, his assertion was that the Bible was not covered. That was false.

No church on earth can cover the bible on Sunday alone. That’s why they have bible studies. I’ve been to masses where the priest teaches and interprets the readings but for the most part that doesn’t and didn’t happen very often.

You seem to be missing what I am asking.

Can you provide proof that the Catholic Church did not preach the Gospel prior to 1980? None of the articles you posted do that.

I’m estimating 1980 because that was when televangelists and protestant church planters and born again christians were invading and attacking Catholic turf. That’s when my parish began talking about salvation being a gift that we cannot earn. The Catholic church always had the gospel and sprinkled a little in here and there but did not proclaim it the way it is being proclaimed today. If what I provided is not enough then what are you looking for?

 

[ralphinal]

No church on earth can cover the bible on Sunday alone. That’s why they have bible studies. I’ve been to masses where the priest teaches and interprets the readings but for the most part that doesn’t and didn’t happen very often.

I’m estimating 1980 because that was when televangelists and protestant church planters and born again christians were invading and attacking Catholic turf. That’s when my parish began talking about salvation being a gift that we cannot earn. The Catholic church always had the gospel and sprinkled a little in here and there but did not proclaim it the way it is being proclaimed today. If what I provided is not enough then what are you looking for?

I would like something with citations that can be verified. I would like to see actual Church writings that show a different Gospel. I would like proof.

It is very common for people to claim any number of things. I want proof before I buy into any of them.

 

[ron77nyc]

I would like something with citations that can be verified. I would like to see actual Church writings that show a different Gospel. I would like proof.

It is very common for people to claim any number of things. I want proof before I buy into any of them.

People were not allowed to read a bible and the church did not give any assurance of salvation for anyone. I can’t give you sermons that were never written or recorded. I can’t give you any more proof except to give you more testimonies on websites but you’re lucky because my lawyer isn’t here now so you don’t have to sign anything as confirmation of approval.

 

[ralphinal]

People were not allowed to read a bible and the church did not give any assurance of salvation for anyone. I can’t give you sermons that were never written or recorded. I can’t give you any more proof except to give you more testimonies on websites but you’re lucky because my lawyer isn’t here now so you don’t have to sign anything as confirmation of approval.

First point, the Church did not forbid people from reading the Bible. FOr the vast majority of History, the common man was illiterate and there was no such thing as movible type (printing press). This means that people COULD NOT HAVE READ it.

Second, who has assurance of salvation? If you look in the Bible, it is all about working towards it. No one is given an automatic move to the head of the line.

Third, the Church does have a written set of teachings. If what you claim is true, than it should be there, right?

Finally, it is not about my approval. I just want to see if you can support what you say. I enjoy talking to folks on here.

 

[ron77nyc]

QUOTE]First point, the Church did not forbid people from reading the Bible.

Are you sure about that?

FOr the vast majority of History, the common man was illiterate and there was no such thing as movible type (printing press). This means that people COULD NOT HAVE READ it.
Second, who has assurance of salvation? If you look in the Bible, it is all about working towards it. No one is given an automatic move to the head of the line.

1JOHN 5:11This is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is found in his Son. 12The person who has the Son has this life. The person who does not have the Son of God does not have this life. **13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. **14And this is the confidence that we have in him: if we ask for anything according to his will, he listens to us. 15And if we know that he listens to our requests, we can be sure that we have what we ask him for.

JOHN 6:39And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on the last day. 40This is my Father’s will: That everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him to life on the last day.”

We can have confidence if we are not in rebellion.

Third, the Church does have a written set of teachings. If what you claim is true, than it should be there, right?

My point exactly. It’s in the bible but they don’t tell anyone. Why is that?

Finally, it is not about my approval. I just want to see if you can support what you say. I enjoy talking to folks on here.

My poor attempt at written humor. Was not meant to be sarcastic or offensive. Sorry if it was.

 

[Symux]

I’m curious.
What do YOU think the Catholic Church means when we stated the pope is infallible? How do you think we define infallible?

In no way do we think any one person in the church, other than Jesus, is perfect. When you state that we believe that our ‘church is perfect’, what exactly are you referring to: the people, the doctrine, the practices, something else, all of the above?

michel

Papal infallibility is the dogma in Catholic theology that, by action of the Holy Spirit, the Pope is preserved from even the possibility of error when he solemnly declares or promulgates to the Church a dogmatic teaching on faith or morals as being contained in divine revelation, or at least being intimately connected to divine revelation.

It is also taught that the Holy Spirit works in the body of the Church to ensure that dogmatic teachings proclaimed to be infallible will be received by all Catholics.

These are from Wikipedia, but are what I was taught. The Roman Catholic church was so corrupted leading up to the reformation, that I truly believe God sent Luther to straighten it out and bring his people back to him. Sure, back then you could pay for redemption with a bit of gold, but now you can’t. Also remember that Luther was fully human, and himself not error free. He had his faults, but he did force the RC to take a look at things they were doing. Luther wasn’t even declared an official Prophet, but can you list one prophet who made no errors? Even King David made mistakes.

Any institution with a history as shady as that of the Roman run Catholic church cannot ever claim infallibility. I give to Caesar what is his, and by this I mean the church of Rome.(RCC) Jesus started the Catholic Church, but not the one run by Rome.

The claim of infallibility came years after Christ. Man decided that man was infallible, and claimed approval from the Holy Spirit knowing full well that God has given us Free will and that he will not be broadcasting faults on live TV. Instead, he whispers in our ears, and gets us to see the truth. God wants you to read from his own words. Read the Bible, and don’t depend on the little snippets the church shares with you. Don’t trust anyone who claims they are perfect. God warns us to be vigilant, and watchful for many will try to fool us. His Spirit guides us individually, and know he guides you too. Depend on the Bible, and now what people tell you about it.

 

[ralphinal]

Are you sure about that?

Yep. Gots a minor in history.

1JOHN 5:11This is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is found in his Son. 12The person who has the Son has this life. The person who does not have the Son of God does not have this life. **13I have written these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life. **14And this is the confidence that we have in him: if we ask for anything according to his will, he listens to us. 15And if we know that he listens to our requests, we can be sure that we have what we ask him for.

JOHN 6:39And this is the will of the one who sent me, that I should not lose anything that he has given me, but should raise it to life on the last day. 40This is my Father’s will: That everyone who sees the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him to life on the last day.”

We can have confidence if we are not in rebellion.

First, the epistles, and Gospels for that matter, were written to be read and proclaimed to the Church as a whole, not by individuals one at a time. Do a little research on the way the Jewish system worked.

My point xactly. It’s in the bible but they don’t tell anyone. Why is that?

I think people were told. I think that they were not told what you assume to be the Gospel.

Either way, Jesus and Paul speak of salvation as being connected to a constant vigilance. Not a once saved always saved idea.

My poor attempt at written humor. Was not meant to be sarcastic or offensive. Sorry if it was.

It was not. I took it the way you intended. My attempt at humor seems to have failed though. No offense here.

 

[rpp]

I smell a dirty sock (puppet).

 

[lozeerose]

The claim of infallibility came years after Christ. Man decided that man was infallible, and claimed approval from the Holy Spirit knowing full well that God has given us Free will and that he will not be broadcasting faults on live TV. Instead, he whispers in our ears, and gets us to see the truth. God wants you to read from his own words. Read the Bible, and don’t depend on the little snippets the church shares with you. Don’t trust anyone who claims they are perfect. God warns us to be vigilant, and watchful for many will try to fool us. His Spirit guides us individually, and know he guides you too. Depend on the Bible, and now what people tell you about it.

This was promised by Jesus himself…as detailed in the Bible:

Matt 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luke 22:31-32 (KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren

These are just a couple of verses that demonstrate the infallibility of Peter’s (and his successors’) office on matters of faith…

I am no scholar but it seems clear to me…

 

[Symux]

This was promised by Jesus himself…as detailed in the Bible:

Matt 16:18 (KJV) And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Luke 22:31-32 (KJV) And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren

These are just a couple of verses that demonstrate the infallibility of Peter’s (and his successors’) office on matters of faith…

I am no scholar but it seems clear to me…

Satan is good at spreading lies. Neither of these statements claim to provide the Wisdom or knowledge to see through them. It does however prove that there will always be people who trust in Christ for their redemption. Will you believe in Christ and be saved, or do you believe that by being a good upstanding member of the Roman Catholic Church that you will gain access to Heaven because you deserve it?

Man will not get into Heaven by his own works, this way no man can boast.

 

[Methodi]

Oh Ron you astonish me!!! Really!!!

So you think that we are saved by faith alone?? Come on!!

Each of us are going to be judged differently, for some, Just having faith & belief In Jesus & That he is the redeemer will be enuff

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Each of us are going to be judged differently, for some, Just having faith & belief In Jesus & That he is the redeemer will be enuff

Oh ya, just like the murderers and gang members who kill but wear their crosses around their necks…but because they have faith…alone.

 

[benedictus2]

Many priests in churches that I’ve visited and masses that I see on television just do the readings and then go off to somewhere else when it’s time for the homily. I have family members who go to mass every Sunday and when I tell them they are saved by faith they look at me like I have a third eye growing out of my forehead.

The Catholic teaching is not you are saved by faith alone. That is the protestant teaching of Sola Fide. The Catholic teaching is you are saved by Grace. Faith Alone doctrine is inherently heretical. Saved by Grace means faith woking in love.

As Jesus said, not everyone who calls Him Lord Lord will be saved but rather those who DO THE WILL OF HIS FATHER.

It is true that a lot of Catholics need more Cathechesis, but what I was getting at is that you can know the Bible without owning a Bible if you attend Mass everyday. You may not know chapter and verse but you will know what it is.It is God’s Love Letter to us.

And sure you may be distracted at Mass sometimes (we are only human after all) but the Mass offers not just the Word of God but God Himself in the Eucharist.

 

[benedictus2]

God has judged the Roman Cathoic Church that was the the Reformation.
Just as God judged the children of Isreal He has judged the Roman Church.

And your proof for that being ???

You have not answered any of the points I raised. Ratonality is obviously not your strongest point.

The gates of hell have not prevailed against Gods assembly—thanks to the Reformation

As I’ve said before, you are terrbly ignorant of history.
And there is no hope for you because you insist on being blind.

Well, I have put the challenge to you before but obviously you, like eveyone else cannot answer this one.

Christ established only one Church, which of the thousands of Protestant Churches is it?

Give scriptural and historial proof that traces it back to Peter.

It is the Church of Satan who claims to be Jews when they are not.

God have mercy on your soul. You have just called His Bride the Church of Satan.

Isreal is Gods first born He is the Lord God of Isreal and no one has replaced His first love of whom He gave EVERLASTING promises and covenants.

Christs’ Assembly is on earth of whom I am part of.

Study scripture and get some training on logical thinking.

Your post are full of unsbtantiated facts. So I asked you before, who is the father of flies again? Watch out. You are paying too much heed to his guiding.