B
benedictus2
Guest
Okay, I didn’t get you meaning first time around. Getting denser and denser in my old age.
- Status
M
Methodi
Guest
Thats Fine, I am old too, LOL!
S
Symux
Guest
How many times does God have to tell us not to judge others, before we begin to understand what he is saying?Haven’t you people who say “Faith alone” and go to Church on Sundays and then on Monday, Tuesday…Friday, Saturday cheat on their spouses?
They cheat on others as well but they are going to heaven. Why? Because they believe that Jesus is Lord and Saviour!!!
Now you tell me!
R
ron77nyc
Guest
P
Peter_J
Guest
I suspect that Protestants reading your post, feel a lot like Catholics feel when Protestants say “Catholics worship Mary.”Haven’t you people who say “Faith alone” and go to Church on Sundays and then on Monday, Tuesday…Friday, Saturday cheat on their spouses?
They cheat on others as well but they are going to heaven. Why? Because they believe that Jesus is Lord and Saviour!!!
Now you tell me!
C
CWBetts
Guest
There is a difference. “Catholics worship Mary” is a falshood based on a misunderstanding of Catholic doctrine. The supposition that Protestants have nothing to fear from sin is no misconception. Those that believe in eternal security have no reason to avoid sin, bevause thay have no punisment, or so they believe. I used to ascribe this doctrine. I know what is taught. They are like the Pharisees, who are concerned with outward appaearance. They tithe, they go to church, but without true conversion, they have no true life in them.
C
Cinette
Guest
This is not being judgmental - this is stating a fact.
My husband and I have been severely bruised and damaged by people like that. We have personal experience. We did not react - we just asked God to help us.
Today we have grateful hearts. God does answer prayer. He may not answer in the way we ask. This is why today when we pray for ourselves we have learned to say “May your will be done”
Judgmental is when someone says “John is not saved” “I know that MaryAnne is not saved”. You would never hear a Catholic say that. That doesn’t mean we are perfect but we know that Faith goes with Grace and Grace leads to good works. Have you heard of the Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy? That is what God expects of us for our salvation. It emanates from Faith.
B
benedictus2
Guest
EXCELLENT POINT!
B
benedictus2
Guest
AND ANOTHER EXCELLENT POINT!This is not being judgmental - this is stating a fact.
My husband and I have been severely bruised and damaged by people like that. We have personal experience. We did not react - we just asked God to help us.
Today we have grateful hearts. God does answer prayer. He may not answer in the way we ask. This is why today when we pray for ourselves we have learned to say “May your will be done”
Judgmental is when someone says “John is not saved” “I know that MaryAnne is not saved”. You would never hear a Catholic say that. That doesn’t mean we are perfect but we know that Faith goes with Grace and Grace leads to good works. Have you heard of the Spiritual and Corporal Works of Mercy? That is what God expects of us for our salvation. It emanates from Faith.
C
Cinette
Guest
Seriously Peter, I have been told by Protestants tht no matter what if they have Faith that’s it! They commit sin and all they do is say sorry and there is no retribution.
I know that when I sin I must do all I can not to repeat it and also I must pay for what I have done - in the form of prayer and good actions. We receive grace thru the sacraments and all these things build us up.
Let me give an example. If a man commits murder. He is arrested and tried, found guilty and must pay for this crime by term in jail. It is not enough for him to say “I’m sorry”. If he shows remorse the Judge may take this into consideration and give him a lighter sentence. He must still serve his sentence of part thereof.
Jesus’ death on the cross was in payment for our sins and this payment was the key into the kingdom. We did nothing to earn it. So entrance is secured for us. Jesus’ sacrifice was not in retribution for our sins - it was to open the way into heaven for us. Jesus said “Be holy as my Father is Holy” - this means we have to strive to be good and pure. That is why we may have to spend some time in Purgatory - a time of purification. We cannot be admitted into Heaven with any stain of sin.
Please correct me if I am wrong. This is my understanding.
C
Cinette
Guest
N
notsmart
Guest
There are always consequences to sin.
Jesus was not a hippie, dope smoking free love guy. He never promised that we would not have temporal suffering, or pain.
We know heaven is free of this, and free of death.
Purgatory is not forever. Its never eternal.
So why do people get so very upset thinking about Purgatory?
What is the real issue with those who are “against” it.
Jesus was not a hippie, dope smoking free love guy. He never promised that we would not have temporal suffering, or pain.
We know heaven is free of this, and free of death.
Purgatory is not forever. Its never eternal.
So why do people get so very upset thinking about Purgatory?
What is the real issue with those who are “against” it.
S
Symux
Guest
What I meant was the question itself of their virtue and their going to Heaven. Neither of us knows if this adulterer will be headed that way, because only God can know what is in his/her heart.
I am an ex-Roman Catholic, and though you have mentioned that no Catholic would say someone is damned … I can tell you from personal experience that this is not so. Many have said I’m going to Hell, as I left the church. No where in the Bible is that argument supported.
Please, only reference Biblical sources, as I cannot accept a book written by the Roman Catholic Church as evidence for the superiority of the Roman Catholic Church. I may write a book and claim it to be true, but that doesn’t mean it is. My mind is open, but only to the Bible, and I am willing to discuss openly the different ideas.
I truly believe that God works with people who desire his presence, and he can be seen through them. I have seen God’s hand at work through 3 JWs, many Catholics and Protestants. I have seen his reflection in Jewish friends, and in all those who truly seek him. None of us know all the answers, but he doesn’t expect us to.
**Now your arguments about Protestants believing this or that is in error. Protestants do not all have the same belief system, as our churches are not centrally run like yours. If we did have the same, then there would only be one Protestant denomination. **
Those I know, believe we are saved by the Grace of God, and that those with faith will be drawn to good works because of that faith.
An extreme example of this is the SS high ranking officers in Nazi Germany. They believed in what Hitler stood for, and acted out with little remorse against the persecuted. It did not phase them, and they did what they thought would impress Hitler.
Maybe a very bad example, but it is a worldly one. Those who love and follow Christ wish also to emulate him. The harder we try, the more we realize what his sacrifice really meant. We can never do this on our own.
Guys look, the end of the world is coming. The apostles thought so as well, and tried to get people working together to save as many souls that they could. It is now 2,000 years later, and that date is all that much closer. If they felt such an urgency, shouldn’t we too be pulling together and supporting one another in Christ? The end could be in 20 years from now, or another 2000. We just don’t know, but we should be ready.
N
notsmart
Guest
Symux, even Judas’ fate is not set in stone by the catholic church.
Not even his.
So who taught you that anyone’s could be? No human can be judged until that day. Not one.
Not even his.
So who taught you that anyone’s could be? No human can be judged until that day. Not one.
S
Symux
Guest
I don’t know how you read that from what I typed. I was arguing against that very notion. My argument was that it is not right for anyone to look at another professing Christian and snort about their sins as if that were an indication of them not going to Heaven. We all know that none of us are worthy, and only God knows what is in our hearts.
You are incorrect however in that no one knows, as there is one exception. The thief who died with Christ was promised by him, that he would be with him.
Other Questionable exceptions mentioned in the Bible would be
Abraham and Lazarus … as Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom. However, I don’t know what that would mean after Christ’s Resurrection.
N
notsmart
Guest
I agree with you! You mean St Dismus!
I did not say who knows who would be in heaven, I said no one knows who is going to hell.
You need to re-read.
I said even Judas’ fate is unknown!
This is what you typed!!!
“am an ex-Roman Catholic, and though you have mentioned that no Catholic would say someone is damned … I can tell you from personal experience that this is not so. Many have said I’m going to Hell, as I left the church. No where in the Bible is that argument supported”
I say that is not catholic teaching. Unless, you had full knowledge of the church and still did so…
Monica
S
Symux
Guest
Ah, I’m sorry for the confusion there. I edited my post… ahem, but it looks like you beat me to the board
I truly hope you are right about that, and that it wasn’t official teaching of the RC. I can accept people being zealous. The first person who told me this was a Priest. He said it at the time of all RC’s who left the church, as we were speaking one day. This is the priest who I adored and looked up to for much of my youth. He took me on missionary work later, and when I learned stuff about the RC through University … I left. I have not seen him since, no fault of his. I just haven’t been able to face him, because I still look up to him quite a bit. If he still lives, he would be in his eighties now.
N
notsmart
Guest
Symux, no catholic can tell you that you are going to hell! Not one!
You can rest easy about that.
Please, I know the catholic posters here will back me up on that.
They don’t even condemn Judas to Hell! Not even Judas!
I am so sorry that priest said that to you. Please come back to the catholic church.
You can rest easy about that.
Please, I know the catholic posters here will back me up on that.
They don’t even condemn Judas to Hell! Not even Judas!
I am so sorry that priest said that to you. Please come back to the catholic church.
Ah, I’m sorry for the confusion there. I edited my post… ahem, but it looks like you beat me to the board
I truly hope you are right about that, and that it wasn’t official teaching of the RC. I can accept people being zealous. The first person who told me this was a Priest. He said it at the time of all RC’s who left the church, as we were speaking one day. This is the priest who I adored and looked up to for much of my youth. He took me on missionary work later, and when I learned stuff about the RC through University … I left. I have not seen him since, no fault of his. I just haven’t been able to face him, because I still look up to him very much so. Though, I don’t know if he would still be alive, as he would be in his eighties now.
S
Symux
Guest
Oh, I don’t blame him at all. I love that man as though he were my own Grandfather. He ran a camp for youth, and had hundreds of children there each summer. I used to help out, and became a team leader the year before going to University. He was the best Priest anyone could hope for. We stayed at his rectory, and through him we were able to develop contacts and friendships at the convent. I truly miss all that, but when I heard the history of the Catholic church, it was at a time that I was too innocent in the ways of man.Symux, no catholic can tell you that you are going to hell! Not one!
You can rest easy about that.
Please, I know the catholic posters here will back me up on that.
They don’t even condemn Judas to Hell! Not even Judas!
I am so sorry that priest said that to you. Please come back to the catholic church.
I felt utter betrayal and as if I had been lied to all my life … but I never blamed the Nuns or priests. My anger was focused on those Bishop and above. Keep in mind, at this time I thought the church was perfect in every sense of the word. I did not yet know the ways of man. Had I learned the truths now, I might have been able to accept them. It was at a time in my life when I was most vulnerable to the truth, and I allowed myself to believe everything the RC church said was a lie. I had strong reasons for this, but am now questioning the Prof at the University, despite her being an ex-nun. I would really like to know what her source was for some of the claims, but I won’t speak of them on this forum. I turned so quickly … fell so hard … I can’t risk anyone falling away because of something I say. I’ve contacted a priest, and will ask him when we meet… maybe I can get this settled once and for all.
B
benedictus2
Guest
I don’t know how serious you are about seeking truth, but I suggest reading some of Scott Hahn’s books. Rome Sweet Home is a good one. It is his and his wife’s conversion story but he goes pretty heavily into doctrines as well.
Thomas Howard’s Lead Kindly Light is also really good.
One thing that I have kept emphasizing is that the Catholic Church is Christ’s Church no matter what. And if that can be established as truth, then it follows that her teachings are true.
So while we go on and on about this and that doctrine, what one must ask and give their utmost to find the answer to is, "Is the Catholic Church who and what she claims to be? "
Because if she is what she says is, then the question changes to “Why then am I not her member?”
- Status