Catholic history is disturbing

[notsmart]

You will find peace, you can go to “ask the apologist” or you can post in a category that this issue falls under., or here if you wish- Rob is a good catholic, and there are others here of course (not me yet ) but, you must be a very christian man take your faith very seriously.
I pray you find answers. This is catholic answers, after all!
Jesus loves you very very much!

Oh, I don’t blame him at all. I love that man as though he were my own Grandfather. He ran a camp for youth, and had hundreds of children there each summer. I used to help out, and became a team leader the year before going to University. He was the best Priest anyone could hope for. We stayed at his rectory, and through him we were able to develop contacts and friendships at the convent. I truly miss all that, but when I heard the history of the Catholic church, it was at a time that I was too innocent in the ways of man.

I felt utter betrayal and as if I had been lied to all my life … but I never blamed the Nuns or priests. My anger was focused on those Bishop and above. Keep in mind, at this time I thought the church was perfect in every sense of the word. I did not yet know the ways of man. Had I learned the truths now, I might have been able to accept them. It was at a time in my life when I was most vulnerable to the truth, and I allowed myself to believe everything the RC church said was a lie. I had strong reasons for this, but am now questioning the Prof at the University, despite her being an ex-nun. I would really like to know what her source was for some of the claims, but I won’t speak of them on this forum. I turned so quickly … fell so hard … I can’t risk anyone falling away because of something I say. I’ve contacted a priest, and will ask him when we meet… maybe I can get this settled once and for all.

 

[benedictus2]

Oh, I don’t blame him at all. I love that man as though he were my own Grandfather. He ran a camp for youth, and had hundreds of children there each summer. I used to help out, and became a team leader the year before going to University. He was the best Priest anyone could hope for. We stayed at his rectory, and through him we were able to develop contacts and friendships at the convent. I truly miss all that, but when I heard the history of the Catholic church, it was at a time that I was too innocent in the ways of man.

I felt utter betrayal and as if I had been lied to all my life … but I never blamed the Nuns or priests. My anger was focused on those Bishop and above. Keep in mind, at this time I thought the church was perfect in every sense of the word. I did not yet know the ways of man. Had I learned the truths now, I might have been able to accept them. It was at a time in my life when I was most vulnerable to the truth, and I allowed myself to believe everything the RC church said was a lie. I had strong reasons for this, but am now questioning the Prof at the University, despite her being an ex-nun. I would really like to know what her source was for some of the claims, but I won’t speak of them on this forum. I turned so quickly … fell so hard … I can’t risk anyone falling away because of something I say. I’ve contacted a priest, and will ask him when we meet… maybe I can get this settled once and for all.

One thing I have learned in this forum is to check any attack that protestants and other dissidents hurl at the Church.

True the Church has had many failings, but these does not take away from the fact that she is Christ’s Church. That is why He left us the sacraments. These are very powerful at renewing His Church. And people forget that. They think that they will be the ones to renew the Church. No, they will just be instruments. It will still be Christ who will do the renewing.

So please, take the time to read the posts of the Catholics on this thread. I think they have done a marvelous job of countering the accusations that have been hurled at the Church.

I used to cringe at the thought of the Inquisition. Protestants claimed as many as 9 millioin were killed. And yet when Pope John Paul II opened the archives to study this in depth, they realized that it was 6000 in a span of 500 years.

The pictures is a lot, lot less worse than painted. There is also so much more to it than just the deaths, terrible though these were…

So please, keep an open mind and listening and humble heart and allow the Holy Spirit to guide you through your search.

 

[Cinette]

What I meant was the question itself of their virtue and their going to Heaven. Neither of us knows if this adulterer will be headed that way, because only God can know what is in his/her heart.

I am an ex-Roman Catholic, and though you have mentioned that no Catholic would say someone is damned … I can tell you from personal experience that this is not so. Many have said I’m going to Hell, as I left the church. I can believe that there are ex-Catholics who say that but I cannot understand how they can say that and still leave the Church. No where in the Bible is that argument supported. You are wrong here. There is a passage in the bible where it says that if you have been exposed to the truth and you turn your back on the truth …. I must find it for you - perhaps someone on this thread can also assist.

Please, only reference Biblical sources, as I cannot accept a book written by the Roman Catholic Church as evidence for the superiority of the Roman Catholic Church. Wait a minute the Bible is a Catholic book – you surely are not going to deny that?!!! I may write a book and claim it to be true, but that doesn’t mean it is. My mind is open, but only to the Bible, and I am willing to discuss openly the different ideas.

I truly believe that God works with people who desire his presence, and he can be seen through them. I have seen God’s hand at work through 3 JWs, many Catholics and Protestants. I have seen his reflection in Jewish friends, and in all those who truly seek him. None of us know all the answers, but he doesn’t expect us to. I can accept what you say here absolutely. My husband was an atheist all his life and he came to believe in God through a Jewish scientist. There are many Protestants who have beautiful souls and from whom we can learn.

**Now your arguments about Protestants believing this or that is in error. Protestants do not all have the same belief system, as our churches are not centrally run like yours. You can say that again but let me tell you that there are many who do say all you have to do is believe that jesus is your lord and saviour to have salvation. They do not believe in sin – they can commit any number of sins and continue to say they are saved. Sure there are many protestants who do not talk like that (thank goodness) but it is only among protestants (other protestants) that i have heard such utterances. Oh yes! ** If we did have the same, then there would only be one Protestant denomination. Agreed wholeheartedly.

Those I know, believe we are saved by the Grace of God, and that those with faith will be drawn to good works because of that faith. Yes, this is what Catholics believe.

An extreme example of this is the SS high ranking officers in Nazi Germany. They believed in what Hitler stood for, and acted out with little remorse against the persecuted. It did not phase them, and they did what they thought would impress Hitler.

Maybe a very bad example, but it is a worldly one. Those who love and follow Christ wish also to emulate him. The harder we try, the more we realize what his sacrifice really meant. We can never do this on our own.

Guys look, the end of the world is coming. The apostles thought so as well, and tried to get people working together to save as many souls that they could. It is now 2,000 years later, and that date is all that much closer. If they felt such an urgency, shouldn’t we too be pulling together and supporting one another in Christ? The end could be in 20 years from now, or another 2000. We just don’t know, but we should be ready.

As I look through what you have written I see someone with whom I could have an intelligent and satisfying conversation.

I also see someone who has some anger. Maybe resentment.

I hope we can advance in our discussion. I will keep looking for that scripture (if anyone on this thread has not already done so).

God bless you
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

I don’t know how you read that from what I typed. I was arguing against that very notion. My argument was that it is not right for anyone to look at another professing Christian and snort about their sins as if that were an indication of them not going to Heaven. I agree - “Judge not…” There have been Protestants who have said to me “So and so is not saved…” I would always respond that it is not for us to judge - that we do not know what is in their hearts. Believe me Symux, I have heard people say that a number of times. Of course I know that there are Protestants who do not believe that but when I have heard it it has always been by Protestants. We all know that none of us are worthy, and only God knows what is in our hearts.

You are incorrect however in that no one knows, as there is one exception. The thief who died with Christ was promised by him, that he would be with him.

Other Questionable exceptions mentioned in the Bible would be
Abraham and Lazarus … as Lazarus was in Abraham’s bosom. However, I don’t know what that would mean after Christ’s Resurrection.

 

[benedictus2]

I hope we can advance in our discussion. I will keep looking for that scripture (if anyone on this thread has not already done so).

God bless you
Cinette

Hebrews 10: 26-27

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

 

[notsmart]

As I look through what you have written I see someone with whom I could have an intelligent and satisfying conversation.

I also see someone who has some anger. Maybe resentment.

I hope we can advance in our discussion. I will keep looking for that scripture (if anyone on this thread has not already done so).

God bless you
Cinette

1 John 2:19

I think?
Another good one, is Matt 13:58

But I think you mean 1 John 2:19

 

[benedictus2]

I agree - “Judge not…” There have been Protestants who have said to me “So and so is not saved…” I would always respond that it is not for us to judge - that we do not know what is in their hearts. Believe me Symux, I have heard people say that a number of times. Of course I know that there are Protestants who do not believe that but when I have heard it it has always been by Protestants.

I think this stems from their formulaic view of salvation. Profess Jesus as your Lord and Saviour and voila! these become the magic words which will save you from hell and guarantee you heaven.

 

[benedictus2]

Jesus said that there would be one flock and one shepherd!

And that is what I mean by believing in His Word.

 

[Symux]

So while we go on and on about this and that doctrine, what one must ask and give their utmost to find the answer to is, "Is the Catholic Church who and what she claims to be? "

You ask this question from the view of a believer, and that is understandable. Those of us outside the church rely on the Bible for our source of information, and it doesn’t support/deny that claim. We all came from Adam and Eve, but I can’t prove this to anyone. Noah is my ancestor, and anyone else who was born after the flood. We can’t prove this either. Christ started a church and built it on Peter. What happened after Peter is up for debate, as even some of the early Church fathers disagreed on doctrine. They did not all agree. The Roman Catholic Church became the State church of Rome, but does it make any of the others less worthy who existed at the time? The Roman Catholic Church did not comprise of all the Christians, as they were not one unified body under one recognized Leader.

notsmart There are always consequences to sin.
Jesus was not a hippie, dope smoking free love guy. He never promised that we would not have temporal suffering, or pain.
We know heaven is free of this, and free of death.
Purgatory is not forever. Its never eternal.
So why do people get so very upset thinking about Purgatory?
What is the real issue with those who are “against” it.

Purgatory isn’t spoken of anywhere in the Bible. It isn’t even talked about in the early church writings. Suddenly it comes on the scene long after Christ has physically left the world, and we are told that we must believe it … because a mere mortal says to. The Bible is very explicit in teaching us to be wary of false doctrines. I personally do not know if it is false or not. However, there is an abundant paper trail from the time of Christ.

If he said something about it, that would have been recorded. The evidence is not there, and until the church can provide proof other than twisted words and quotes taken out of context … then I will continue to believe in a Heaven or Hell. Jesus suffered and absorbed all our sins. Every sin in the past and the future has been forgiven. On that basis alone, then how could you possibly have sin to repent for if you have already been forgiven? We are to trust in Jesus alone, put our faith in him and not ourselves. Only through him can we gain eternal life. Being of a good standing in a church means squat, unless your faith is in him. Otherwise he never would have condemned the Pharisees who did /everything/ they were supposed to be, according to the laws.
They just did it for the wrong reasons.

Faith is a gift of God. Not everyone gets it. ( By this I mean the growing number of pagans out there … not taking a crack at anyone here.)

 

[Cinette]

Ah, I’m sorry for the confusion there. I edited my post… ahem, but it looks like you beat me to the board

I truly hope you are right about that, and that it wasn’t official teaching of the RC. I can accept people being zealous. The first person who told me this was a Priest. That is terrible. I would argue like crazy - but you know the story of the “Wheat and the tares” - fortunately for every bad priest there are thousands of wonderful and holy men who really sacrifice their lives to look after us. He said it at the time of all RC’s who left the church, as we were speaking one day. This is the priest who I adored and looked up to for much of my youth. I can imagine the pain - it also happened to me once. This priest has many good qualities and was instrumental in my husband’s conversion to the Catholic Church nearly 4 years ago. But then we found that he compromised the Faith - inclusive language (the H Spirit is female) He said the “Da Vinci Code” was a good thriller. I protested strongly and eventually my husband suggested we leave that Parish. He took me on missionary work later, and when I learned stuff about the RC through University … I left. I have not seen him since, no fault of his. I just haven’t been able to face him, because I still look up to him quite a bit. If he still lives, he would be in his eighties now.I loved that Priest so much that I could not imagine leaving our part of the world to live elsewhere - he was everything to us.

It is funny. I am a revert and for many years my husband I were communist sympathisers - we were leftist revolutionaries etc. etc. When I came back to the Church - BOOM! - and as I learnt more and more about the faith and my husband also…we have become orthodox-leaning Catholics. I refuse to compromise!

I hope you find what you are looking for.

 

[benedictus2]

You ask this question from the view of a believer, and that is understandable. Those of us outside the church rely on the Bible for our source of information, and it doesn’t support/deny that claim. We all came from Adam and Eve, but I can’t prove this to anyone. Noah is my ancestor, and anyone else who was born after the flood. We can’t prove this either. Christ started a church and built it on Peter. What happened after Peter is up for debate, as even some of the early Church fathers disagreed on doctrine. They did not all agree. The Roman Catholic Church became the State church of Rome, but does it make any of the others less worthy who existed at the time? The Roman Catholic Church did not comprise of all the Christians, as they were not one unified body under one recognized Leader.

That is why all I ask is for you to keep an open and teachable heart. I am sure that your questions will be answered satisfactorily. If not in this forum, then by books,etc, if you continue to search.

Thomas Howard, the author of Lead Kindly Light took 10 years from the time he started reading to his final reception into the Catholic Church. It may seem a long time, but hey, that was God’s time.

I have heard conversion stories (Alphonse Ratisbone) that took all of 15 minutes because of a mystical experience.

But barring such supernatural experiences, to come to the realization of the truth of the Catholic Church’s claim will involve a lot of elbow grease.

There is another thread called to “To Live By Faith” where a fair few of your questions have been answered. You might want to pay that a visit.

If you can’t find the thread I will post a link later.

Purgatory isn’t spoken of anywhere in the Bible. It isn’t even talked about in the early church writings. Suddenly it comes on the scene long after Christ has physically left the world, and we are told that we must believe it … because a mere mortal says to. The Bible is very explicit in teaching us to be wary of false doctrines. I personally do not know if it is false or not. However, there is an abundant paper trail from the time of Christ.

If he said something about it, that would have been recorded. The evidence is not there, and until the church can provide proof other than twisted words and quotes taken out of context … then I will continue to believe in a Heaven or Hell. Jesus suffered and absorbed all our sins. Every sin in the past and the future has been forgiven. On that basis alone, then how could you possibly have sin to repent for if you have already been forgiven? We are to trust in Jesus alone, put our faith in him and not ourselves. Only through him can we gain eternal life. Being of a good standing in a church means squat, unless your faith is in him. Otherwise he never would have condemned the Pharisees who did /everything/ they were supposed to be, according to the laws.
They just did it for the wrong reasons.

Faith is a gift of God. Not everyone gets it. ( By this I mean the growing number of pagans out there … not taking a crack at anyone here.)

I will answer these maybe tomorrow as I have to finish a report

 

[Symux]

It is funny. I am a revert and for many years my husband I were communist sympathisers - we were leftist revolutionaries etc. etc. When I came back to the Church - BOOM! - and as I learnt more and more about the faith and my husband also…we have become orthodox-leaning Catholics. I refuse to compromise!

I hope you find what you are looking for.

I like that attitude! Always be vigilant, and seek the truth. I am somewhat cautious about where the fine line is between being weary, and belief as through the eyes of a child.

If I think back to those days, I was a child and I remember the innocence in my belief. It was an ex-nun who taught me at the University, so of course I figured she knew exactly what she was talking about.

You can see why I’m here now. I ask hard questions … take on attitudes of both Catholic and Protestants… . but I’m searching for answers.

Thank-you too for your responses benedictus2, and anyone I might have missed responding to. I have read them all, and value your insight. However, I’m off to bed for now, and look forward to future discussions with you.

 

[Cinette]

I obviously didn’t post it on this thread but I did talk about my husband’s conversion and our leanings.

Religiously we are orthodox and socially we are left-leaning although I would not say we are socialists (Marx type)… I would say that the same characteristics which drew us to Marxism influenced my husband towards Catholicism. He has always had a strong social conscience. So we are like you then I think.

 

[Cinette]

Hebrews 10: 26-27

If we sin deliberately after receiving knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains sacrifice for sins but a fearful prospect of judgment and a flaming fire that is going to consume the adversaries.

That’s it - thank you Benedictus.

I would say that an example of this would be a case where a Catholic priest willfully turned his back on the Church. As for anyone else, I cannot say because I do not know their heart. But there is a danger - it depends how well catechised they are I suppose.

I turned my back on the Church for 27 years.

Cheers
Cinette

 

[Cinette]

1 John 2:19

I think?
Another good one, is Matt 13:58

But I think you mean 1 John 2:19

I was thinking of Hebrew 10:26-27 but 1 John 2:19 is an interesting one (I think it refers to the AntiChrist though)

 

[OneTrueCathApos]

Ah, I’m sorry for the confusion there. I edited my post… ahem, but it looks like you beat me to the board

I truly hope you are right about that, and that it wasn’t official teaching of the RC. I can accept people being zealous. The first person who told me this was a Priest. He said it at the time of all RC’s who left the church, as we were speaking one day. This is the priest who I adored and looked up to for much of my youth. He took me on missionary work later, and when I learned stuff about the RC through University … I left. I have not seen him since, no fault of his. I just haven’t been able to face him, because I still look up to him quite a bit. If he still lives, he would be in his eighties now.

Another “blame the priest” post.

 

[Cinette]

Another “blame the priest” post.

I don’t think you should say that.

In the first place I wouldn’t leave the Church because of any Priest but you don’t know the circumstances. Perhaps Symux was not fully catechised. Who knows.

Who am I to judge, I left the Church for 27 years just like that… BOOM and I returned just like that…BOOM! Who knows?

I hope Symux comes back to the Church because there is so much to learn and encounter. You see if there was hope for someone like me who just left and turned my back how much more for someone who left to go to a Protestant Church. At least Symux has that and continues searching. There is hope.

Symux, don’t mind us.

 

[Peter_J]

What I meant was the question itself of their virtue and their going to Heaven. Neither of us knows if this adulterer will be headed that way, because only God can know what is in his/her heart.

I am an ex-Roman Catholic, and though you have mentioned that no Catholic would say someone is damned … I can tell you from personal experience that this is not so. Many have said I’m going to Hell, as I left the church. No where in the Bible is that argument supported.

I believe you. But the fact that some Catholics have said that to you means nothing (or very little, anyways).

It’s like how Cinette mentioned that she had been told by Protestants that “no matter what if they have Faith that’s it! They commit sin and all they do is say sorry and there is no retribution.” Does the fact that some Protestants told her that make it ‘the official Protestant position’? Certainly not. In the same way, the fact that some Catholics told you that you’re going to hell, doesn’t make it ‘the official Catholic position’, it just demonstrates that there are some (actually a great many, from my experience) Catholics out there who are confused (or worse).

The first person who told me this was a Priest.

Ay carumba!

 

[Peter_J]

The Roman Catholic Church became the State church of Rome, but does it make any of the others less worthy who existed at the time? The Roman Catholic Church did not comprise of all the Christians, as they were not one unified body under one recognized Leader.

But all the other local churches were in full communion with each other, and in full communion with Rome. (If a church stopped being in full communion with Rome, then it was “in schism”.) So I would say they were “one unified body”, albeit one the had a lot of internal disagreements.

 

[ron77nyc]

Jesus’ death on the cross was in payment for our sins and this payment was the key into the kingdom. We did nothing to earn it. So entrance is secured for us. Jesus’ sacrifice was not in retribution for our sins - it was to open the way into heaven for us. Jesus said “Be holy as my Father is Holy” - this means we have to strive to be good and pure. That is why we may have to spend some time in Purgatory - a time of purification. We cannot be admitted into Heaven with any stain of sin.

Please correct me if I am wrong. This is my understanding.

With the exception of the Blessed Mother do you think it is possible for anyone to obtain sinless perfection in this life?