Catholic history is disturbing

[notsmart]

Hisalone, I don’t understand why you quoted a post and did not say anything about it.



What are your thoughts on the post you just quoted, but said nothing about?

 

[Cinette]

Hisalone:
To think Lucifer was once one of God’s Angels and look at Judas. Oh my gosh - we are full of curruption!

Alas!

 

[Cinette]

Hi again Cinette!

On your post number 630, you sought bible verses.
On my reply to your request, (number 633) I offered 2 possible off the top of my head possibilities.

1 John 2:19
Matt 13:58

You tell me in your reply to my post, that in my first example, its talking about the anti-christ (to which I do not disagree)

But, you fail to mention anything about Matt 13:58.

Here was your original request:

You are wrong here. There is a passage in the bible where it says that if you have been exposed to the truth and you turn your back on the truth …. I must find it for you - perhaps someone on this thread can also assist.

You must tell me if the Anti Christ, was not once one of us.

After I posted Luke 12:10 there was another passage from Matthews on the same subject and much stronger and I didn’t write it down so now I am hunting madly for it and I have to go out!!!

As for the AntiChrist - don’t ask me that, I don’t know. It is the evil one for sure and all his followers. I prefer to concentrate on Christ himself.

Ciao

 

[rad]

To think Lucifer was once one of God’s Angels and look at Judas.

Are Catholic required to believe de fide that Judas is damned?

Here is an extract from the young Russian bishop and theologian Bishop Hilarion who heads the Russian permanant Delegation to the European Union in Brussels

This is from his “The Descent of Christ into Hades in Eastern and Western Theological Traditions”

A lecture delivered at St Mary’s Roman Catholic Cathedral, Minneapolis, USA, on 5 November 2002

orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx
[For full article]

Extract:

---

The descent of Christ into Hades is one of the most mysterious, enigmatic and inexplicable events in New Testament history. In today’s Christian world, this event is understood differently.

Liberal Western theology rejects altogether any possibility for speaking of the descent of Christ into Hades literally, arguing that the scriptural texts on this theme should be understood metaphorically.

The traditional Catholic doctrine insists that after His death on the cross Christ descended to hell only to deliver the Old Testament righteous from it. A similar understanding is quite widespread among Orthodox Christians.

On the other hand, the New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirit in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited.’

However, many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to salvation for all people, not only the Old Testament righteous.

The descent of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons.

 

[Cinette]

Found it!

Therefore I say to you, that every kind of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come (Mt. 12:31-32).

What do you think of that? Strong stuff. I thought I had come back to you on that one

Hmmm…

 

[Cinette]

Are Catholic required to believe de fide that Judas is damned?

Here is an extract from the young Russian bishop and theologian Bishop Hilarion who heads the Russian permanant Delegation to the European Union in Brussels

This is from his “The Descent of Christ into Hades in Eastern and Western Theological Traditions”

A lecture delivered at St Mary’s Roman Catholic Cathedral, Minneapolis, USA, on 5 November 2002

orthodoxeurope.org/page/11/1/5.aspx
[For full article]

Extract:

---

The descent of Christ into Hades is one of the most mysterious, enigmatic and inexplicable events in New Testament history. In today’s Christian world, this event is understood differently.

Liberal Western theology rejects altogether any possibility for speaking of the descent of Christ into Hades literally, arguing that the scriptural texts on this theme should be understood metaphorically.

The traditional Catholic doctrine insists that after His death on the cross Christ descended to hell only to deliver the Old Testament righteous from it. A similar understanding is quite widespread among Orthodox Christians.

On the other hand, the New Testament speaks of the preaching of Christ in hell as addressed to the unrepentant sinners: ‘For Christ also died for sins once for all, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit; in which he went and preached to the spirit in prison, who formerly did not obey, when God’s patience waited.’

However, many Church Fathers and liturgical texts of the Orthodox Church repeatedly underline that having descended to hell, Christ opened the way to salvation for all people, not only the Old Testament righteous.

The descent of Christ into Hades is perceived as an event of cosmic significance involving all people without exception. They also speak about the victory of Christ over death, the full devastation of hell and that after the descent of Christ into Hades there was nobody left there except for the devil and demons.

I have to rush as I am late but thanks for that.

“Missionaries of the 21st century are the laity” What would we do without our brothers and sisters in Christ love: includes our separated brothers and sisters)

Love you all
Ciao
Cinette

 

[ron77nyc]

Cinette:

Found it!

Therefore I say to you, that every kind of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven to men; but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. And whoever speaks a word against the Son of Man, it shall be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit it will not be forgiven him, either in this world or in the world to come (Mt. 12:31-32).

What do you think of that? Strong stuff. I thought I had come back to you on that one

Hmmm…

What do you think about Acts 5:3-5? “3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?
4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.”
5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.”

What do you think would be a current example of actually committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Some people say it would be saying that the work of the Holy Spirit is the work of the devil but many people have done that in ignorance.

 

[Cinette]

What do you think about Acts 5:3-5? “3 But Peter said, “Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart so that you lied to the holy Spirit and retained part of the price of the land?
4 While it remained unsold, did it not remain yours? And when it was sold, was it not still under your control? Why did you contrive this deed? You have lied not to human beings, but to God.”
5 When Ananias heard these words, he fell down and breathed his last, and great fear came upon all who heard of it.”

What do you think would be a current example of actually committing blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? Some people say it would be saying that the work of the Holy Spirit is the work of the devil but many people have done that in ignorance.

Gosh Ron, I really don’t know. I would have to do some research and study. Today I came across a scripture that confused me and which I do not entirely understand. It is Romans 11:22-23 “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief.” This, I understand has to do with losing your salvation… I find it very difficult.

 

[Hisalone]

Hisalone, I don’t understand why you quoted a post and did not say anything about it.



What are your thoughts on the post you just quoted, but said nothing about?

This thread has seemed to get off topic
So I posted the OP to see if there was naymore discussion on it.

 

[cazayoux]

Gosh Ron, I really don’t know. I would have to do some research and study. Today I came across a scripture that confused me and which I do not entirely understand. It is Romans 11:22-23 “Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief.” This, I understand has to do with losing your salvation… I find it very difficult.

Interesting …

I don’t know if I see that ‘cutting off’ as permanent though.

In reading the old testament, it seems to me that God let’s His people fall away from Him. He lets them fail in so many ways. However, the very moment they turn back to him, He is there for them.
Sounds like (‘severe’) tough love just like a Father should have.
We learn from these failures alone, but we also learn that our Father is waiting for us with open arms to turn back to him.

I would think if the individuals that are discussed in Romans that you quoted turned back to God, he would be there for them immediately.

michel

 

[Peter_J]

Are Catholic required to believe de fide that Judas is damned?

No, certainly not.

We Catholics sometimes say confidently “So-and-so is in heaven”, but we never say confidently “So-and-so is in hell” (not even Judas or Ananias).

 

[Peter_J]

So I posted the OP to see if there was naymore discussion on it.

What are you, Scottish now?

 

[Cinette]

Interesting …

I don’t know if I see that ‘cutting off’ as permanent though.

In reading the old testament, it seems to me that God let’s His people fall away from Him. He lets them fail in so many ways. However, the very moment they turn back to him, He is there for them.
Sounds like (‘severe’) tough love just like a Father should have.
We learn from these failures alone, but we also learn that our Father is waiting for us with open arms to turn back to him.

I would think if the individuals that are discussed in Romans that you quoted turned back to God, he would be there for them immediately.

michel

Thanks for your response. It is comforting but I must still work thru this. I disturbed me very much.

Ciao
Cinette

 

[itsjustdave1988]

Are Catholic required to believe de fide that Judas is damned?

Most Catholic theologians would agree that Judas was damned, but this is not de fide dogma.

For instance, an opinion held by St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross and some Catholic theologians, such as Fr. Hans Urs Von Balthasar assert that "it possible to hope that God’s omnipotent love finds ways of, so to speak, outwitting human resistance." [Cardinal Avery Dulles, http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=488”]*First Things, *“The Population of Hell” ]

According to these theologians, they assert the "right to hope and pray that all will be saved. The fact that something is highly improbable need not prevent us from hoping and praying that it will happen. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved’ (1 Timothy 2:4)” (CCC §1821). At another point the Catechism declares: “The Church prays that no one should be lost” (CCC §1058). " (Dulles, ibid.)

Yet, according to Cardinal Avery Dulles, “The New Testament does not tell us in so many words that any particular person is in hell. But several statements about Judas can hardly be interpreted otherwise” (ibid.).

 

[JMJ_coder]

Most Catholic theologians would agree that Judas was damned, but this is not de fide dogma.

For instance, an opinion held by St. Teresa Benedicta of the Cross and some Catholic theologians, such as Fr. Hans Urs Von Balthasar assert that “it possible to hope that God’s omnipotent love finds ways of, so to speak, outwitting human resistance.” [Cardinal Avery Dulles, http://www.firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=488”]*First Things, *“The Population of Hell”

]

According to these theologians, they assert the "right to hope and pray that all will be saved. The fact that something is highly improbable need not prevent us from hoping and praying that it will happen. According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church, “In hope, the Church prays for ‘all men to be saved’ (1 Timothy 2:4)” (CCC §1821). At another point the Catechism declares: “The Church prays that no one should be lost” (CCC §1058). " (Dulles, ibid.)

Yet, according to Cardinal Avery Dulles, “The New Testament does not tell us in so many words that any particular person is in hell. But several statements about Judas can hardly be interpreted otherwise” (ibid.).

Saint Teresa of Avila also had hope that Judas might have been saved. Like I say with many others – it is certainly possible that they, at the very end, implored God’s mercy and were saved; and I pray and hope that is the case; but it doesn’t look good.

 

[rikkk1958]

I’m a Catholic who agrees with you…here’s why. Just a hypothetical situation: If a person sins his entire life and repents immediately before his death because he has finally understood the gospel, that person will be saved by his faith and not anything he has done. If another does the opposite: he lives his whole life doing good deeds to earn a reward in the next life but rejects belief in Jesus and the gospel message, that person will not be saved according to biblical teaching and Catholic teaching.

It seemed your topic lately is the justification by faith. It is true that in some ways God can save you with His loving grace at any moment of time but, it is Him alone can do that and no human being can judge if a man is saved or not. Your point is true when Jesus was hung on the Cross and He at that moment forgave a big sinner that was about to die also. However, it was an act of God not by men, meaning it was God that was there who forgave that person. We all know that God can do anything He wants but, will man rely on grace alone? Will you perceived that you will be saved without working for it? It is therefore necessary before going to the battle to bring along the necessary ammunitions with you, along with the provisions you need to survive.
When God asked you to feed and clothe a homeless person, you tell yourself to do it and follow God, but in was only a thought and you did not do it anyway, Now, which is righteous in the eyes of God? The doer, or the hypocrite?

 

[Cinette]

I was looking at the topic and thought. Catholic history is the history of Christianity. Without the Catholic Church there would be no Christianity.

Would there?

One more thing - the Protestant Reformation was perhaps the most disturbing thing in the history of humanity! What do you have to say about that!

Hey?

Cinette

 

[Symux]

One more thing - the Protestant Reformation was perhaps the most disturbing thing in the history of humanity! What do you have to say about that!

Hey?

Cinette

The protestant revolution was a necessity to force the corrupted rulers to return back to God. Many of the Bishops + in the 1500’s didn’t even believe in God. They bought their positions and ruled the church for the power it gave them. You can imagine that God wasn’t pleased with this. The church even discouraged people from reading the Bible. Yes, most people were illiterate, but even those who were able to read were discouraged from doing so.

Luther needed to force the church to become accountable for itself, and to God once more. This is not to say that the Roman Catholic Church is in any way bad, but horribly corrupt people abused Gods house for their own gain. They took money from people to pay for sins and help get loved ones into Heaven.

Once more, this is not a slam against the church. Back then the church was a very powerful institution, and those who craved power wriggled in. The Protestant revolution was not against anything found in the Bible, but against those things at the time which were anti-scripture and against God.

Most of that is not spoken of today, as it is recognized to be the act of a few individuals. However the revolution happened in Europe, where these individuals were acting. It was needed. You could call it God’s almighty backhand and shake up of the organization.

The revolution had to happen, or the Roman Catholic church as it is today would not exist. Now it is a very God centered church with a strong focus on keeping to the Bible. The discrepancies found in the church today are minor.

However, once the protestant revolution began, it cannot be stopped by man alone.

If you asked me why I’m not a Roman Catholic anymore, I would say it has entirely to do with the fact that we are unwelcome into the church if we do not hold to the entire teachings of it. I cannot believe that any man is infallible, or an organization that has the history this church does. It is not enough in the Roman Catholic church to love God, worship Christ, and to live your life for God. You have to believe in all the other rules created by man for God’s people.

Jesus came to preach to the sinners, as those who were perfect had no need of him. The Roman Catholic church allows unfit sinners to enter, but dare they partake in the sacraments.

 

[Methodi]

The protestant revolution was a necessity to force the corrupted rulers to return back to God. Many of the Bishops + in the 1500’s didn’t even believe in God. They bought their positions and ruled the church for the power it gave them. You can imagine that God wasn’t pleased with this. The church even discouraged people from reading the Bible. Yes, most people were illiterate, but even those who were able to read were discouraged from doing so.

Luther needed to force the church to become accountable for itself, and to God once more. This is not to say that the Roman Catholic Church is in any way bad, but horribly corrupt people abused Gods house for their own gain. They took money from people to pay for sins and help get loved ones into Heaven.

Once more, this is not a slam against the church. Back then the church was a very powerful institution, and those who craved power wriggled in. The Protestant revolution was not against anything found in the Bible, but against those things at the time which were anti-scripture and against God.

Most of that is not spoken of today, as it is recognized to be the act of a few individuals. However the revolution happened in Europe, where these individuals were acting. It was needed. You could call it God’s almighty backhand and shake up of the organization.

The revolution had to happen, or the Roman Catholic church as it is today would not exist. Now it is a very God centered church with a strong focus on keeping to the Bible. The discrepancies found in the church today are minor.

However, once the protestant revolution began, it cannot be stopped by man alone.

If you asked me why I’m not a Roman Catholic anymore, I would say it has entirely to do with the fact that we are unwelcome into the church if we do not hold to the entire teachings of it. I cannot believe that any man is infallible, or an organization that has the history this church does. It is not enough in the Roman Catholic church to love God, worship Christ, and to live your life for God. You have to believe in all the other rules created by man for God’s people.

Jesus came to preach to the sinners, as those who were perfect had no need of him. The Roman Catholic church allows unfit sinners to enter, but dare they partake in the sacraments.

Many Catholics are participating in the reception of The Holy Eucharist when they are not reconciled. The church knows this but is afraid to confront it because they dont want to chase these people away. The Church is a business of a sort, havn`t You noticed. If the church keeps telling the people what they dont wanna hear, they are gonna be gone. The Church cant afford to lose any more members & I am not anti catholic, just telling it like i see it

 

[Symux]

Many Catholics are participating in the reception of The Holy Eucharist when they are not reconciled. The church knows this but is afraid to confront it because they dont want to chase these people away. The Church is a business of a sort, havn`t You noticed. If the church keeps telling the people what they dont wanna hear, they are gonna be gone. The Church cant afford to lose any more members & I am not anti catholic, just telling it like i see it

This is true, but it becomes a personal point of truth and honesty. It is deceptive to partake in the sacraments when you know that you are unworthy to do so in the eyes of the community. Who would know, but us that we have done so? God greatly dislikes liars, and to knowingly do so would make me worse in God’s eye. These may not be his rules, but they are the rules of the organization and I would be deceiving those around me by claiming otherwise.

My parents, husband and myself will go to mass when we fly out West to visit with them. I’m sure my parents would love it if I received communion, and being from a small community it must humiliate them to see me crossing my arms before my chest and accepting a blessing instead. You know others in the community talk about such things, and it would be easier on them if we just ignored the rules. Who would know that I married in the United church to a protestant? Who would know that I said my vows to God in a building that wasn’t part of the Roman organization? I do, God does, and he knows that I would be lying to everyone around me by ignoring their organization’s rules as though I were in perfect standing with the Roman Catholic church. I may not have sinned against God, but I did go against the rules set out by man for the Roman Catholic Church.

God dislikes liars.