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elts1956
Guest
Where did you find the Church teaches pre-destination? Can you clarify that for me? Thanks.
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elts1956
Guest
Yes, it seems to occur on a regular basis with me. The more I delve, the more explanations I hear and read about, the stronger is my desire to learn more. The Catholic Church is great and also overwhelming. I am so proud this deposit of faith continues to keep the trust the Lord gave her 2000 years agoI agree with you here as well.
I have learned so much more from reading the above. I treasure Scott Hahn. My sister calls him the 21st century Paul.
There are things however that no amount of reading would seem to budge and then one day ding! you know.
It’s like the gospels. Yes you comprehend it as you read, but then there is that one time when you seem to see it in a different light. A new aspect is brought to the fore. I think this is a direct infusion of knowledge by the Holy Spirit.
I think all of us have had a moment like that.
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guanophore
Guest
So you have said…
It wasn’t that. It was all the non-Catholic beliefs you have expressed, and the persistent anti-Catholic comments you have made. You may call yourself a “catholic” but you rexpressions on this board are Protestant in character.
If this is true, then you are doing a masterful job of role playing a Protestant!
No, it is not his fault. I am sure he believed the vows made by your parents and Godparents that they would raise you in the Catholic faith. If they did so, then they are not to blame either…
Of course!
But if you were properly catechized, you would not need such a telling, would you?
If you have a problem with it tell the priest who baptized me.
Can you tell me what has been proclaimed as infallible or where I could find it?
Why are you criticizing the Church for your own shortcomings? A learning disability is nothing to be ashamed of at all. I have one myself. I know there has historically been a lot of stigma attached to them, but it is getting better.
This is a pretty broad statement. Do you know everyone? Are you speaking for yourself, and other poorly catechized persons close to you?
This is one of the non-Catholic statements you make that make you appear non-Catholic. The unity of the Church is in the person of Christ, who is the founder and head of the Church. He founded one Church, upon One Truth. All who embrace that truth are in unity because they are rightly connected the the Head.
“Catholics” such as yourself who disagree with the teachings of the Church are not the standard of unity (or lack of it). Lack of unity results when people depart from the One Faith.
You are judging that which comes from God according to the behavior of those who have fallen from it?
This may be true, but it is also irrelevant. It does not change the unity of the church, or the truth of what the Church teaches. If this were the case, then using your logic, we would have to say that Judas, since he betrayed Christ, “stole” the truth that was from God from everyone and invalidated what Jesus taught.
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Martin777
Guest
That is an amazingly ill-informed statement! Would you like the opportunity to quote from any of the popular non-catholic Bibles that are used by millions of active and joyful Chirstians outside the Roman church and give me one example of how the verse is twisted and distorted as you lay it next to the RCC version?**
Hi elts,
If Protestants had real faith in what Jesus commanded of them, rather than knowledge about him that they obtain from reading one of their 100 corrupted, twisted, distorted and altered vesions of the Bible, and just obeyedthe teachings of his real church just as he commanded 1500 years before their cults and groups were even formed.
God Bless **
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guanophore
Guest
I thought you just said you were a baptized Catholic? You are the one who is publicly denying the Catholic doctrines! Most of the persons who are lapsed in faith do not pretend to be Catholic. I agree with you, there is a problem with people claiming to be Catholic that espouse these beliefs. I don’t really see the difference between them, and you. You just deny different Teachings of the faith.
Certainly not! However, you can fail to grown into the faith by which you were baptized, or fall from it once you were taught. It is difficult to tell which one is the case here, or maybe both. What is clear only is that your expressions are not Catholic here. IT may be that you are role playing a Protestant for effect. Such things have been seen here before.
There are other cafeteria Catholics who also believe this way. You can find many of them in the Lutheran and Anglican Churches. Check it out! You will be happier with birds of a feather.
No, probably not. A lot of us have sojourned in Protestantism for a long time. I learned the Bible from Protestants too.
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Martin777
Guest
Do you know why Scott left the Protestant church? I just read his story. Very moving, BUT…the first two things he said were turning points theologically are flawed: 1. He said that if Jesus’ talk about eating His flesh and drinking His blood were supposed to be only symbolic, He would have said so. So therefor He meant that communion would involve the literal body and blood of Jesus. Please! This is so faulty. Look at the other times (from John) Jesus spoke similarly and NEVER clarified: “I am the door”, “I am the light of the world”, “I am the vine”. he never said, well, now, remember, I’m not a literal hunk of wood on hinges. Or…“Be careful—I’m not an actual vine growing in the ground” No. He was speaking figuratively, and He was as well regarding eating His flesh and drinking His blood. Not one example, yet this was critical in Scott’s decision.
Second, he said that when he read in Thessalonians where Paul told the Christians to “hold to the traditions you were taught”, he thought that was a devastating blow to the doctrine of Sola Scriptura. Hopefully you know better than this: Of course Paul said that! At the time he wrote, there was no New Testament Canon! The New Testament we have now was at the time the LETTERS that Paul, Peter, John had written and were circulating among the churches. The Holy Spirit inspired those letters and that is why they later became Canon. That is so obvious, I am amazed that he didn’t see it.
So not a very impressive launch into Roman Catholicism. Based on two faulty interpretations of Holy Scripture.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
**Really, well with an impressive record such as receiving his BA with a triple-major in Theology, Philosophy, and Economics, as well as his Master of Divinity and his PH.D in Biblical Theology, not to mention an exceptionally popular speaker and teacher, Dr. Scott Hahn has delivered numerous talks nationally and internationally on a wide variety of topics related to Scripture and the Catholic faith.
Hundreds of these talks have been produced on audio and video tapes.
He is currently a professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville. Sounds like a guy I would listen to.
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sambos671
Guest
Not to mention that his intial MDIV was at Gordon-Conwell a protestant college. Strangely the very points Martin777 mentions here are addressed in Keatings Catholicism/Fundalmentalism.**Really, well with an impressive record such as receiving his BA with a triple-major in Theology, Philosophy, and Economics, as well as his Master of Divinity and his PH.D in Biblical Theology, not to mention an exceptionally popular speaker and teacher, Dr. Scott Hahn has delivered numerous talks nationally and internationally on a wide variety of topics related to Scripture and the Catholic faith.
Hundreds of these talks have been produced on audio and video tapes.
He is currently a professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville. Sounds like a guy I would listen to.
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ron77nyc
Guest
I will praise the Church for all the good it has done - not only in my life but in the lives of millions. I will not ignore the evil it has done. If that means I’m not a good Catholic then you can say I’m not a good Catholic.So you have said…
It wasn’t that. It was all the non-Catholic beliefs you have expressed, and the persistent anti-Catholic comments you have made. You may call yourself a “catholic” but you rexpressions on this board are Protestant in character.
I didn’t purposely go out and choose this path. It chose me. I think the problem you and I have is that you are a lot younger than I. I will be 57 in a couple of days. I still attend Mass occasionally and I have Catholic friends. Anyone 30 yrs or younger has a whole different experience with Catholicism.If this is true, then you are doing a masterful job of role playing a Protestant!
My mother and the rest of my family are devout Catholics. I am the one who was excommunicated for speaking my mind. I am the black sheep but they always ask me to pray at family dinners because no one else wants to.
I was properly catechized but not by today’s standards. I never heard about a mediatrix, salvation by grace through faith and I was never taught to hate Protestants or Jews. Not hating those of a different faith is good as far as I’m concerned.But if you were properly catechized, you would not need such a telling, would you?
This is a personal attack which goes against the code of conduct but I’ll answer anyway. I was an excellent student and I have no disabilities at all. I love studying the bible and I couldn’t find a Catholic bible study when I needed it so I learned from Protestants who also did a lot of good for me but also taught me some wrong ideas. If I was not open to truth I would not be on here. You are one of the people on here that I respect. I apologize for the anger towards the Church but it was never directed at anyone personally.
No, I see that everyone is at different levels of knowledge and spiritual development. It’s normal and natural. If we all had infinite knowledge then we would all be in agreement.
Let’s not deny the fact that Church leaders in Church history have put obstacles between God and His people. Read Ezechiel 34. It’s all about shepherds who trample the flock. Bishops and cardinals have done the very same thing. If they didn’t we would have no Protestants. The Church claims to have the monopoly on God, grace and the truth. That’s not true I think God controls all those things and gives it to whomever, whenever and wherever he chooses.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
The problems with many is that they tend to become judge of others which Jesus told not to.
They tend to blame the Church for the unfaifullness of others.
they fail to look to the Church is the teacher of all men and we must learn from her the Truth of our Lord.
it is up to each of us to want to follow her teachings or not. many choose not too, therefore they go their own way and follow falsehoods. still i will not judge them.
we know throughout history that many people after wondering around doing wrong came back to the Church and became great saints.
to judge others is to consider ourselves greater than they are. that i will not do.
listen to different voices is not a good idea. you will get confuse.
blaming the Church for what we do wrong is also blaming God for what we do wrong. we know God taught us to do what is right. do we do what He tell us? can anyone of us blame Him?
there is much good in the Church. look for it and you shall find.
**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
They tend to blame the Church for the unfaifullness of others.
they fail to look to the Church is the teacher of all men and we must learn from her the Truth of our Lord.
it is up to each of us to want to follow her teachings or not. many choose not too, therefore they go their own way and follow falsehoods. still i will not judge them.
we know throughout history that many people after wondering around doing wrong came back to the Church and became great saints.
to judge others is to consider ourselves greater than they are. that i will not do.
listen to different voices is not a good idea. you will get confuse.
blaming the Church for what we do wrong is also blaming God for what we do wrong. we know God taught us to do what is right. do we do what He tell us? can anyone of us blame Him?
there is much good in the Church. look for it and you shall find.
**“I should not believe the Gospel except as moved by the authority of the Catholic Church.”
Saint Augustine (354-430), Against the Letter of Mani, 5,6, 397 A.D… **
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Martin777
Guest
Then I would be worried if I were you. Unless you didn’t read what I wrote there. Very faulty hermeneutics on his part. How many books and lectures has Deepak Chopra written?**Really, well with an impressive record such as receiving his BA with a triple-major in Theology, Philosophy, and Economics, as well as his Master of Divinity and his PH.D in Biblical Theology, not to mention an exceptionally popular speaker and teacher, Dr. Scott Hahn has delivered numerous talks nationally and internationally on a wide variety of topics related to Scripture and the Catholic faith.
Hundreds of these talks have been produced on audio and video tapes.
He is currently a professor of Theology and Scripture at Franciscan University of Steubenville. Sounds like a guy I would listen to.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
Give me a break…Deepak Chopra can’t even compare to a hair on Dr. Hahn’s head. Admit you don’t like Dr. Hahn because of his journey to the Catholic faith.
The only thing faulty here is your failure to see the truth in Christ’s Word, His church.
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Martin777
Guest
I think Chopra is a false prophet. I was simply pointing out that writing a bunch of books and speaking doesn’t make you right about anything. Why don’t you address the two scriptural points I made about Hahn’s enlightenment to Catholicism? Speak directly to my charges that those were faulty assumptions on his part. But be specific. You can phone a friend.Give me a break…Deepak Chopra can’t even compare to a hair on Dr. Hahn’s head. Admit you don’t like Dr. Hahn because of his journey to the Catholic faith.
The only thing faulty here is your failure to see the truth in Christ’s Word, His church.
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OneTrueCathApos
Guest
All I can say is Dr. Hahn was correct in what he said. period.
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Peter_J
Guest
I think you’re misunderstanding Dr. Hahn’s reasoning.
Certainly it’s true that the Lord did not always specify whether he was speaking figuratively. But in the case of “Unless you eat my body” and so on, we know that many of his followers left him, saying “How can this man give us his flesh to eat?” (We don’t know of anyone who stopped following him, saying “How can this man be a door?”) So not saying “I spoke figuratively about eating my flesh”, is saying something.
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guanophore
Guest
This is true about the use of metaphors. However, In the case or Eucharist He says “take and eat, this is my body…this is my blood”. He did not do this withthe other metaphors. He also said “this is my flesh that I give for the life of the world”. He did not give “figurative or symbolic” flesh and blood, but real.
Of course he sees it. We just don’t believe the Traditions that produced the inspired word of God became invalid when they were written down.
And by what authority is yours more correct than his?
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benedictus2
Guest
I was in a debate with Sandusky on a thread called “I converted to Christ from Catholicism” when he brought up that topic and told me the Church teaches it as a de fide dogma citing Ludwigg Ott’s Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma.
If you go to the thread on this link "To Live by Faith" and go to my posts 157, 185 and 186 you will find my posts.
Post 157 just redirects you to my original discussion with Sandusky. 185 and 186 is my attempt at a clarification of the Catholic views on the mechanics of pre-destination from the Thomist and Molinist view point. It must be noted that there are other views on this but the Thomist and Molinist views are the most prominent.
While the Catholic Church officially teaches predestination, it does not have a doctrine on how this is worked out so we only have views (Thomist, Molnist, Augustinian) but no official teaching on the mechanics.
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Deconi
Guest
Briefly,…
1 ) Our Lord did not correct or reiterate any misunderstanding of His words when He likened himself to a door or a vine.
He DID reiterate His sayings about eating His flesh and drinking His blood! Read the relevant passages from St.John…and note that His disciples LEFT Him, except the Apostles! But He turns and asks, 'will you leave me too? '…because I am saying you have to eat like cannibals?!?
“To Whom shall we go Lord?..” St. Peter replies. (Not bad for a first Pope!)
2 ) St Paul is not speaking of the LETTERS already in existence. He may not have known that these letters, and others to follow were to be compiled into Holy Sciptures. But he DID KNOW that all they were teaching WERE NOT WRITTEN DOWN, had not been written down and probably will not be written down! The LETTERS you speak of, are intended for a specific audience at a specific location!
Without Tradition, those LETTERS are useless and inapplicable to US since we are neither Thesolonians or Galations. We may be traced to some of the OTHER PEOPLE he wrote to…then again, maybe not!
You have some researching ahead of you. Hahn is good, but credentials mean squat to me if they are erroneous. Hahn is sharp, but he is no modern Paul.
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estesbob
Guest
Oh my-thats not even close to the infallible statements of the Church, Here a good summary of the basic ones:
I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, his only Son, Our Lord. He was conceived by the power of the Holy Spirit and born of the Virgin Mary. He suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended to the dead. On the third day he rose again. He ascended into heaven, and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and life everlasting. Amen.
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benedictus2
Guest
Yes, it is sad that there are so many of them who do not obey the Catholic Church.
In out parish alone there is a member of the parish pastoral committe who has admitted her faith is really no longer Catholic but more aborginal and she is in the pastoral committee!
It is no wonder that this Church has so many liturgical abuses. The parishioners don’t know any better. They think if the priest approved this it must be okay.
One of the members of my group which gives a seminar on the Eucharist thinks that all religions are the same and that Buddhism and Hinduisms and all other isms are on par with Christianity.
Would you wonder then that ordinary Catholic folk who are not much into reading about doctrine and whose knowledge of Catechism is next to nothing, would be swayed by these people who are seemingly knowledgeable about the faith.
There are a lot of renegade priests who having come through the heyday of Catholic dissent totally missed the boat on what Catholic Faith is all about and is the sole means of information of masses of the laity.
But I think this is turning. We are finally getting back to teaching what the faith is all about. It will be a slow process I think, because from my vantage poinit, much damage has been done.
But it will change. All in God’s time.
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