Catholic history is disturbing

[RobHom]

The portions I have put in bold are the parts that differ from the earliest extant manuscripts now known. In Acts and 1 John, they are added words, while in Revelations the difference is book of life instead of tree of life.

That’s interesting. Am I taking it to mean that you are saying that the Douay-Rheims has “added” words? It is my understanding, and always has been that the DR is the direct translation of the Latin Vulgate which was the translation made by Jerome of the original manuscripts…proofs?

 

[benedictus2]

Can you give me an important example of a misinterpretation?

The Eucharist for one but I have not intention of debating that here because I and others have already debated that to the ground on another thread started by Marina.

 

[SyCarl]

That’s interesting. Am I taking it to mean that you are saying that the Douay-Rheims has “added” words? It is my understanding, and always has been that the DR is the direct translation of the Latin Vulgate which was the translation made by Jerome of the original manuscripts…proofs?

I am not sure what you would require by way of proofs. It should be noted that the earliest Protestant versions in English, such as Tyndale’s New Testament, the Geneva Bible and the King James Version, are basically the same as the Douay-Rheims in these passages.

The portion in 1 John 5 is generally referred to as the Johannine Comma. There a number of articles on the internet with respect to it.

You will note that modern Catholic and Protestant versions omit the disputed portions, or disputed word with reference to Revelation. The exception is the New King James Version which is based on the Textus Receptus Greek New Testament of Erasmus. The newer versions of Protestant and Catholic Bibles on the Greek Old Testament originally complied by Hort and Wescott. This is based on a few early manuscripts such as the Codex Sinaiticus, Codex Vaticanus and the Alexandrinus Codex. The Catholic Encyclopedia has articles on each codex.

It is not known which manuscripts Jerome had but it is unlikely that they included any of the originals.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Are you saying that God’s word has not been preserved in Scripture in purity and truth?

**
Hi sy,

I am saying that the Catholic version of bible has been declared free of moral or theological error.

So, depending on exactly what you mean by: “Are you saying that God’s word has not been preserved in Scripture in purity and truth?” My answer could be Yes or No!

I am not a bible scholar! I can tell you that God did not “speak” in words that are contained in the bible. Do I believe in Sola Scriptura? No, I am not the smartest person on this thread that is for sure, but I am not stupid! So to that I have to say not in this life time buddy!

Does that help?

God Bless**

 

[Martin777]

Acts 9:5-6:

drbo.org/chapter/51009.htm

5 Who said: Who art thou, Lord? And he: I am Jesus whom thou persecutest. It is hard for thee to kick against the goad.

6 And he trembling and astonished, said: Lord, what wilt thou have me to do?

Here is verse 7:

7 And the Lord said to him: Arise, and go into the city, and there it shall be told thee what thou must do. Now the men who went in company with him, stood amazed, hearing indeed a voice, but seeing no man.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%209:5-6;&version=49;

Acts 9:5-6 (New American Standard Bible)

5And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, "I am Jesus whom you are persecuting,

6but get up and enter the city, and (A)it will be told you what you must do."

I guess you could say they are essentially the same, though numbered differently, and worded differently, though there is a different meaning in it…

Revelations 22:19 (Douay = Apocalypse)

drbo.org/chapter/73022.htm

19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from these things that are written in this book

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelations%2022:19&version=49

Revelation 22:19 (New American Standard Bible)

19and if anyone (A)takes away from the (B)words of the book of this prophecy, God will take away his part from (C)the tree of life and from the holy city, (D)which are written in this book.

Quite similar.

1 John 5:7-8

drbo.org/chapter/69005.htm

7 And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one. 8 And there are three that give testimony on earth: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three are one.

biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20John%205:7-8;&version=49;

1 John 5:7-8 (New American Standard Bible)

7For there are (A)three that testify:

8[a]the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

Footnotes:

1. 1 John 5:8 A few late mss add …in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one. And there are three that testify on earth, the Spirit

Here is the greatest difference that I see…and it appears that a later amendment to the text was made…to correct it, and bring it in line with the original scriptures textually. Am I correct?

Illuminate please?

Yes I believe that was the one where Erasmus changed it under pressure, to show stronger evidence of the Trinity!
He said he wouldn’t do it unless he saw a Greek ms that supported it, and someone gave him one that was only 20 yrs old!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I think (name removed by moderator) and SyCarl have already done a good job of responding to this post, but I would just like to add a side note: your use of the word “the” gives me the impression that you think the whole world revolves around the English language.

**Hi Pete,
Not to pick nits pete. but, the KJV has been translated into over 1,200 languages. I read two different ones of them. I find it helps me in language retention! There are around 10o different Protestant versions of the bibles around in English. The SDA just rewrote two to make them their own! They are so precious! You have to love them more than most cultists!

By the way, Martin has been reading the links I have been providing in my posts. He is actually becoming more knowledgeable of the bible. He may have a “conversion moment” any time! The truth can’t be suppressed by satan forever! God will not permit that!

God Bless**

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Yes, it is sad that there are so many of them who do not obey the Catholic Church.
In out parish alone there is a member of the parish pastoral committe who has admitted her faith is really no longer Catholic but more aborginal and she is in the pastoral committee!

It is no wonder that this Church has so many liturgical abuses. The parishioners don’t know any better. They think if the priest approved this it must be okay.

One of the members of my group which gives a seminar on the Eucharist thinks that all religions are the same and that Buddhism and Hinduisms and all other isms are on par with Christianity.

Would you wonder then that ordinary Catholic folk who are not much into reading about doctrine and whose knowledge of Catechism is next to nothing, would be swayed by these people who are seemingly knowledgeable about the faith.

There are a lot of renegade priests who having come through the heyday of Catholic dissent totally missed the boat on what Catholic Faith is all about and is the sole means of information of masses of the laity.

But I think this is turning. We are finally getting back to teaching what the faith is all about. It will be a slow process I think, because from my vantage poinit, much damage has been done.

But it will change. All in God’s time.

**Hi Ben,

How is the foot?

I think the problem stems from the Devil. In the 60s Vatican II tried to lessen the riff between the real church and protestants in an attempt to draw their lost souls away from Satan and back to Jesus’ real church. The devil used this “God is love” period to attempt to corrupt the Catholic church by making it “conform” to his false churches beliefs. It might have worked, if not for the HS who kept the church from erring. However the Humans in the church were quick to forget that Jesus said he would turn father againt son, etc and hoped to reunite with their family members “went too far” from what the Church actually wanted to teach. They think “separated beathren” doesn’t mean heretic and that all the warning that Jesus and Paul told about false prophets etc weren’t true. Our church has doctrines and dogma not paid attention to by many Catholics. A study in 2006 says 57% of "catholics"do not believe in the real presense. That makes the Protestants (Some protests do “believe” but they don’t have it so that is a mote point!

I know some catholics that even take Protestant communion . I never would! Gag! Personally I hate grape juice! I much prefer the Blood of my Savior in the form of Wine, then emptiness in the form of grape juice.

As you said, it will change in God’s time. I hope He changes abortion also! That sin is destroying our Nation!

God Bless**

 

[guanophore]

Amazing. So they were praying to dead guys and didn’t know they were praying to dead guys?

Matt 22:30-33
31 And as for the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was said to you by God, 32’I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? **He is not God of the dead, but of the living." **33 And when the crowd heard it, they were astonished at his teaching.

Luke 20:37-38
38 Now he is not God of the dead, but of the living; for all live to him."

John 6:51
“I am the living bread which came down from heaven; if any one eats of this bread,** he will live for ever**; and the bread which I shall give for the life of the world is my flesh.” ’

Though the saints pass from this world, they are alive forevermore!

Who said baptism has nothing to do with water? You do know that there is water baptism and there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Paul talks about a lot, right?

A guy named tabcom was on here purporting that. I thought you asked for an example of misinterpreting scripture?

The Apostles never separated baptism in the HS from water baptism. This is how they understood “born from above by water and spirit”.

 

[guanophore]

Do you know how Paul defines a saint?

Yes. Does it bother you for some reason that we believe some of the saints are alive in heaven with Christ? Is this not what you were just scolding us about on another thread, that we have no “assurance”? Now, when we express this “assurance” that those persons have been glorfied with Him, you criticize!

 

[CWBetts]

I think Martin is operating under the assumption “If its Catholic, it must be wrong”

 

[KingAlfred]

Withstanding Roman persecution, and converting and civilizing the barbarian West after the fall of Rome were difficult missions, to say the least. So was holding Europe together for over a millennium during the Middle Ages. Of course mistakes are bound to be made in any colossal work. No one is innocent. To live is to make mistakes. On balance, the Church has been the greatest of all assets of human progress. Today, if there is any force available to Civilized Man which stands a chance of saving him, it’s the Roman Catholic Church. Everything else is frail by comparison.

 

[guanophore]

I think Martin is operating under the assumption “If its Catholic, it must be wrong”

You know, this may be true. He has been given a lot of misinformation about the Catholic Church. I don’t think it is his fault. The only thing I fault him for is the continuation of the assumption that “it must be wrong”. There is a sarcastic, intractible element there that goes along with the misinformation that is offensive. If he is open and willing to learn, then at least he may come away hating what the Church actually teaches, rather than the misinformation that he has been given.

 

[SyCarl]

Hi Pete,
Not to pick nits pete. but, the KJV has been translated into over 1,200 languages. I read two different ones of them. I find it helps me in language retention! There are around 10o different Protestant versions of the bibles around in English. The SDA just rewrote two to make them their own! They are so precious! You have to love them more than most cultists!
God Bless

Of course there are multiple Catholic versions of the Bible as well. From the ones I have there are the Douay-Rheims, the New American Bible, the Jerusalem Bible, the New Jerusalem Bible, the Revised Stand Version-Catholic Edition, the New Revised Standard Version-Catholic Edition and the Good News Bible-Catholic Edition.

And among the Deuterocanonicals books, which has the correct version?

A couple of examples.

From Judith.

Then the children of Israel, who dwelt in the land of Juda, hearing these things, were exceedingly afraid of him. Dread and horror seized upon their minds, lest he should do the same to Jerusalem and to the temple of the Lord, that he had done to other cities and their temples. And they sent into all Samaria round about, as far as Jericho, and seized upon all the tops of the mountains: And they compassed their towns with walls and gathered together corn for provision for war.
(Judith 4:1-4 DRB)

When the Israelites who dwelt in Judea heard of all that Holofernes, commander-in-chief of Nebuchadnezzar, king of the Assyrians, had done to the nations, and how he had despoiled all their temples and destroyed them, they were in extreme dread of him, and greatly alarmed for Jerusalem and the temple of the Lord, their God. Now, they had lately returned from exile, and only recently had all the people of Judea been gathered together, and the vessels, the altar, and the temple been purified from profanation. So they sent word to the whole region of Samaria, to Kona, Beth-horon, Belmain, and Jericho, to Choba and Aesora, and to the valley of Salem.
(Judith 4:1-4 NAB-A)

Questions.
Had the Jews just returned from exile or not?
Had the temple just been purified?
Do we know which towns were visited or not?
How much detail do we know about what the Israelites had heard?

From Tobit

Tobias of the tribe and city of Nephtali, (which is in the upper parts of Galilee above Naasson, beyond the way that leadeth to the west, having on the right hand the city of Sephet,) When he was made captive in the days of Salmanasar king of the Assyrians, even in his captivity, forsook not the way of truth, But every day gave all he could get to his brethren his fellow captives, that were of his kindred. And when he was younger than any of the tribe of Nephtali, yet did he no childish thing in his work. Moreover when all went to the golden calves which Jeroboam king of Israel had made, he alone fled the company of all, And went to Jerusalem to the temple of the Lord, and there adored the Lord God of Israel, offering faithfully all his firstfruits, and his tithes, So that in the third year he gave all his tithes to the proselytes, and strangers.
(Tobit 1:1-7 DRB)

This book tells the story of Tobit, son of Tobiel, son of Hananiel, son of Aduel, son of Gabael of the family of Asiel, of the tribe of Naphtali, who during the reign of Shalmaneser, king of Assyria, was taken captive from Thisbe, which is south of Kedesh Naphtali in upper Galilee, above and to the west of Asser, north of Phogor. I, Tobit, have walked all the days of my life on the paths of truth and righteousness. I performed many charitable works for my kinsmen and my people who had been deported with me to Nineveh, in Assyria. When I lived as a young man in my own country, Israel, the entire tribe of my forefather Naphtali had broken away from the house of David and from Jerusalem. This city had been singled out of all Israel’s tribes, so that they all might offer sacrifice in the place where the temple, God’s dwelling, had been built and consecrated for all generations to come. All my kinsmen, like the rest of the tribe of my forefather Naphtali, used to offer sacrifice on all the mountains of Galilee as well as to the young bull which Jeroboam, king of Israel, had made in Dan. I, for my part, would often make the pilgrimage alone to Jerusalem for the festivals, as is prescribed for all Israel by perpetual decree. Bringing with me the first fruits of the field and the firstlings of the flock, together with a tenth of my income and the first shearings of the sheep, I would hasten to Jerusalem and present them to the priests, Aaron’s sons, at the altar. To the Levites who were doing service in Jerusalem I would give the tithe of grain, wine, olive oil, pomegranates, figs, and other fruits. And except for sabbatical years, I used to give a second tithe in money, which each year I would go and disburse in Jerusalem.
(Tobit 1:1-7 NAB-A)

Questions
Do we know the ancestry of Tobit or not?
From what city was Tobit taken captive?
Did Tobit help his fellow captives or not?
Exactly what did Tobit take to Jerusalem?

These are just a couple of examples of differences.

 

[Peter_J]

Hi Pete,
Not to pick nits pete. but, the KJV has been translated into over 1,200 languages.

Good point. I guess it’s one of those instances where we aren’t so different after all: we Catholics translated the bible into Latin, and then used that translation (the Vulgate) to make translations in other languages; Protestants translated the bible into English, and then used that translation (KJV) to make translations in other languages.

 

[Martin777]

Oh I do… but to clarify, please read my post at #1003, that should clear it up.

I read it and I agree with you about guys like JW’s. But for Evangelicals, we use virtually the same Bible you do, minus the apocrypha. I already discussed this, but you can lay the NASB or even the NIV next to the Douay and find no differences of ANY significance. It’s truly a wasted discussion.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I think Martin is operating under the assumption “If its Catholic, it must be wrong”

**Hi carl,

That assumes that martin is thinking, not just reading off of the list of “Five Things To Attack Catholics About!”

I do like him! He actually does,occasionally, provide some good insights I am guessing he reads Catholic literature. I hope his brethren don’t catch him! **

 

[Realcatholicgk]

I read it and I agree with you about guys like JW’s. But for Evangelicals, we use virtually the same Bible you do, minus the apocrypha. I already discussed this, but you can lay the NASB or even the NIV next to the Douay and find no differences of ANY significance. It’s truly a wasted discussion.

** Hi martin,

I really believe the big difference is that you guys foolishly believe in Sola Scriptura, the accuracy of the words aren’t as important to catholics because we have the Tradition and correct interpretation of the scriptures based on 2,000 years of learning and instruction by the HS. You guys have only has Satan instructing your countrfeit denominations for what 500 years?

[SIGN]coun ter feit 'kaunt-er-fit: to imitate or copy closely
especially with intent to deceive.[/SIGN]

The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. And the master of counterfeit and deception is Satan.

The Bible in 2 Corinthians 11:14-15 warns of Satan’s counterfeit: “And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness;. . .” Isaiah 14: 14 tells of Satan’s ultimate counterfeit: “. . . I will BE LIKE the most High.”

Satan teaches scripture not so much to deceive but to instruct so that his deceit will be hidden!

This was a good thread, I will see you on others! God Bless everyone!**

 

[guanophore]

** You guys have only has Satan instructing your countrfeit denominations for what 500 years?

[SIGN]coun ter feit 'kaunt-er-fit:** to imitate or copy closely
especially with intent to deceive.[/SIGN]

GK, such statements are prejudicial, counterproductive, and contrary to Catholic Teaching. In fact, the Catechism states that the HS uses these ecclesial communities to bring people to Himself. There is a great deal of Catholic Teaching that does make it’s way into Protestant ecclesial communities and it is improper to throw out the baby with the bathwater.

Furthermore, assigning a malicious motive to most of these pastors and teachers is inappropriate, as they do NOT have an intention to deceive. They, like Apollos, beleive passsionately that they are communicating the truth.

The greatest method of deception is to counterfeit. And the master of counterfeit and deception is Satan.

While I agree with this statement, it is just as wrong to accuse all Protestant communities of deception as it is for them to level this accusation at Catholics. It serves no beneficial purpose.

 

[Ignatius]

The KJV is the version officially autorized by the Orthodox Church.

This is incorrect. Actually the officially authorized version of the Bible for Orthodox is the Septuagint version.

 

[sambos671]

This is incorrect. Actually the officially authorized version of the Bible for Orthodox is the Septuagint version.

Cool. What about the NT? The 70 had nothing to do with that? Or do they just read it in Greek?