Catholic History Questions

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Teresa_Charity

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 I am attending a state university, and my American History professor has said several things about Catholics that are not true, but I am not sure how to refute them.  The first topic was on the selling of indulgences at the time of Martin Luther.  My professor said that Luther met with the Holy Father and asked the Pope to denounce the selling of indulgences.  My professor went on to say that the Pope refused, thereby supporting the selling of indulgences (due primarily to monetary gain for the Church).  
 Secondly, my professor said that the Pope's "silence" about the Nazis at the time of World War II was a great failure on the Pope's part.  He said that the Pope did nothing.  But I know that the Pope was defending Jews, but how do I support my view?
 Finally, my professor claims that the purpose of the Jesuits was to make people in New lands into Catholics (implying that they forced native people to become Catholic).  Especially when talking about the Spanish settlements in the southwest United States, he says that the Jesuits used force to make the natives become Catholic.   
 Any advice on how to support the Church's infallibility and true historical data would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!  God Bless you!
Teresa Charity
 
How disappointing that someone who has the qualifications to be a professor of American History should be so biased.

The first thing to do is to ask the professor the name the primary sources from which his opinions come.

When that answer comes an explanation can be constructed.

For a beginning, go to EWTN and do a search about Pius XII; there is so much about him there that you will get enough information to mount a defense.

Re the Jesuits in the Americas. Jesus commanded the apostles to preach the gospel and that is what they did. Of course they taught the indians about the Catholic Faith. Re the question about force, your professor will have to produce some primary sources to support this.

I don’t know much about the meeting between Luther and the pope so once again your professor will have to provide some primary sources to support this.

I will keep an eye out for your responses.
 
Teresa_Charity said:
The first topic was on the selling of indulgences at the time of Martin Luther. My professor said that Luther met with the Holy Father and asked the Pope to denounce the selling of indulgences. My professor went on to say that the Pope refused, thereby supporting the selling of indulgences (due primarily to monetary gain for the Church).
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Hi, Teresa, and welcome to Catholic Answers Forums!

The most recent thing I’ve read on this topic was from Karl Keating’s book, Catholicism and Fundamentalism. This might be a good place for you to start researching the truth regarding indulgences and Luther.
Teresa_Charity said:
Secondly, my professor said that the Pope’s “silence” about the Nazis at the time of World War II was a great failure on the Pope’s part. He said that the Pope did nothing. But I know that the Pope was defending Jews, but how do I support my view?
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I have not yet read this, but think it is really on point: ttp://www.catholic.com/library/HOW_Pius_XII_PROTECTED_JEWS.asp
Teresa_Charity said:
Finally, my professor claims that the purpose of the Jesuits was to make people in New lands into Catholics (implying that they forced native people to become Catholic). Especially when talking about the Spanish settlements in the southwest United States, he says that the Jesuits used force to make the natives become Catholic.
Click to expand...
I assume the Jesuits have a website (don’t they?) where you could reveiw their role in US history, but don’t have time to look this morning.

Good luck, and let us all know how your professor responds.

Peace all.
 
Just curious - how does a discussion of Luther and indulgences come up in an American History class? Were you discussing the impact of American Protestant denominations and their roots?

I know this does not directly address the topics brought up by your professor, and if he is not trying to make a hero out of Luther it may be neither here nor there, but you may find it interesting to know that Luther was a harsh anti-Semite: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On_the_Jews_and_Their_Lies

Your professor may already know this and condemn it, but I find it interesting that he attacks Pius XII vis-a-vis the Nazis when they were busy quoting Luther on the Jews.
 
Teresa_Charity said:
Finally, my professor claims that the purpose of the Jesuits was to make people in New lands into Catholics (implying that they forced native people to become Catholic). Especially when talking about the Spanish settlements in the southwest United States, he says that the Jesuits used force to make the natives become Catholic.
Any advice on how to support the Church’s infallibility and true historical data would be greatly appreciated. Thank you! God Bless you!
Teresa Charity
Click to expand...
Sadly this did happen. However, I doubt in the manner your professor makes it sound. He probably makes it sound like that was their most common and basic tactic. It wasn’t. However, it was used by some misguided missionaries, soliders, and administrators on some occasions. No one is perfect. :o
 
Teresa_Charity said:
Code: 
 I am attending a state university, and my American History professor has said several things about Catholics that are not true, but I am not sure how to refute them.  The first topic was on the selling of indulgences at the time of Martin Luther.  My professor said that Luther met with the Holy Father and asked the Pope to denounce the selling of indulgences.  My professor went on to say that the Pope refused, thereby supporting the selling of indulgences (due primarily to monetary gain for the Church).
Click to expand...
University isn’t school. You are not expected to memorise a list of approved facts and interpreations. You are expected to realise that responsible and sober and clever people may reject what you hold dear.
It is certainly true that Indulgences had become an abuse. You could look at what the Council of Trent had to say on the subject.
For more marks, you could look at the increasing role of money in the post-Medieval economy. Why did the indulgence scandal happen then, rather than under Innocent III when papal power was at its height?
Code: 
 Secondly, my professor said that the Pope's "silence" about the Nazis at the time of World War II was a great failure on the Pope's part.  He said that the Pope did nothing.  But I know that the Pope was defending Jews, but how do I support my view?
Click to expand...
If you some research you can trace this belief back to a play released sometime around the Eichmann trial. In fact Papal policy was to keep communications with the German government open to try to induce them to surrender, because the Pope recognised that the Axis had lost and saw the continuing fighting as pointless. For extra marks, write about political use of the Holocaust
Code: 
 Finally, my professor claims that the purpose of the Jesuits was to make people in New lands into Catholics (implying that they forced native people to become Catholic).  Especially when talking about the Spanish settlements in the southwest United States, he says that the Jesuits used force to make the natives become Catholic.
Click to expand...
Maybe he can come up with some specific examples of Jesuits forcing people to convert at gunpoint. Or maybe he means that, when the chief converted, the others followed as the most natural thign int he world. Or maybe he is using “force” in a very broad sense to include dazzling with superior technology.
Code: 
 Any advice on how to support the Church's infallibility and true historical data would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!  God Bless you!
Teresa Charity
Click to expand...
 
tkdnick said:
Sadly this did happen. However, I doubt in the manner your professor makes it sound. He probably makes it sound like that was their most common and basic tactic. It wasn’t. However, it was used by some misguided missionaries, soliders, and administrators on some occasions. No one is perfect. :o
Click to expand...
Well, NOW we have to ask for your source documents. Otherwise, it is just hearsay at best, gossip at worst…sinful.
So’s to keep you out of sin, we need the documents. Things like what weapons the Jesuits / adminstrators used, their MOTIVE for doing it, method of threat, torture, did the native warriors do nothing against them…that type of thing.
Oh, and some names, places, year, and soforth would be nice too.

Hope to hear from you today. Otherwise, I may lay out a documented case to get you fired as a New World historian.http://www.tradebit.com/usr/puzzler/pub/9001/thumb-dya2.gif
 
One of the easiest things to locate, any Lutheran OR Catholic site will do, is DID M. LUTHER EVER MEET WITH ANY POPE.
You may be suprised at the answer.
 
Teresa_Charity said:
JMJ
Code: 
 I am attending a state university, and my American History professor has said several things about Catholics that are not true, but I am not sure how to refute them.  The first topic was on the selling of indulgences at the time of Martin Luther.  My professor said that Luther met with the Holy Father and asked the Pope to denounce the selling of indulgences.  My professor went on to say that the Pope refused, thereby supporting the selling of indulgences (due primarily to monetary gain for the Church).  
 Secondly, my professor said that the Pope's "silence" about the Nazis at the time of World War II was a great failure on the Pope's part.  He said that the Pope did nothing.  But I know that the Pope was defending Jews, but how do I support my view?
 Finally, my professor claims that the purpose of the Jesuits was to make people in New lands into Catholics (implying that they forced native people to become Catholic).  Especially when talking about the Spanish settlements in the southwest United States, he says that the Jesuits used force to make the natives become Catholic.   
 Any advice on how to support the Church's infallibility and true historical data would be greatly appreciated.  Thank you!  God Bless you!
Teresa Charity
Click to expand...
ok, well suprisingly enough your professor was right. I have a website which shows much of this with many sources shown. If you go to any library and look different things up like “inquisition” catholic “crusades” “jesuit infiltration” you will see a whole new world opened up to you that has been hidden. go to spirituallysmart.com to see my website.
 
tlthe5th said:
ok, well suprisingly enough your professor was right. I have a website which shows much of this with many sources shown. If you go to any library and look different things up like “inquisition” catholic “crusades” “jesuit infiltration” you will see a whole new world opened up to you that has been hidden. go to spirituallysmart.com to see my website.
Click to expand...
Welcome to you too, tlthe5th. Judging by your website, you’ve come to catholic.com with a specific agenda - a hope to convert us Catholics? Despite this (maybe because of this! There are many keen apologists here), you are, of course, very welcome.

I’d encourage you to have a good browse before you start posting - maybe you’ve done this already. If you have, good on you. If you haven’t, you’ll find that, very probably, whatever points you’ll bring up have been covered in other threads.
That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t begin new threads - just don’t be offended if someone refers you to an old one.

Be open and willing to learn. Be especially willing to do some indepth research - some of the theories and ideas on your site suggest that your research is possibly not as rigorous or honest as it could be. 🙂

My prayer for you is that Christ, who is the truth that you seek, and that you seek to share, will lead you closer to himself.
 
How about this article from Catholic Answers’ Jimmy Akin…
catholic.com/thisrock/2006/0609fea3.asp

Also there is a whole thread on indulgences on Traditional Catholics forum which may help.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=131102

I also recommend Ron Rychlak’s Hitler, the War and the Pope.

How about getting a Catholic high school book like Christ the King, Lord of History by Anne W. Carroll. It will be as easier to read and yet give you background material.
 
I have never figured out how one might “sell” an Indulgence. Isn’t it purely a private matter between the individual and God? (And one’s Guardian Angel, sometimes … )

My understanding is that Indulgences were offered, under the usual conditions (prayer, Confession, Eucharist, etc.) for donations of money to the building projects of the Vatican, and while that might have seemed somewhat mercenary (clergy getting paid at all, let alone having a place to live seems to be a sin, from some points of view), I’m not sure, had I been living at the time, that I’d have noticed much of a difference between that, and the fact that ten bucks gets me a Mass card for my deceased relatives in modern times.

It’s not like they were lying about where the money was going, or like you can’t get Indulgences in many other ways, as well.
 
I don’t have sources to quote, but I understand that the Pope during WWII was walking a tightrope. Any statement he made, any action he took, that might anger Hitler, got more Jews killed in retaliation, whose deaths certain people then blamed on the Pope. So if he said anything, he was guilty, if he said nothing, he was guilty.

The Scarlet and the Black is a movie based on a true story of the Catholic church helping Jews.
 
Often teachers don’t want to even discuss that catholic church but that would be like saying in today’s culture, let’s not discuss stem cell research because it is a moral issue.

In order to really discuss western history, you have to discuss the church and her role. Your professsor threw out a little bit but he really just wants that little bit given back.

A few church history books for yourself are “A Concise History of the Catholic Church” by Thomas Bokenkotter(heresies and history- difficult to read but good,may overwhelm) or “The Story of the Church”(TAN book) written by Rev. George Johnson, Ph.D, Rev. Jerome Hannan, Ph.D and Sister M. Dominica, Ph.D. There are lots.

We are not allowed to discuss the American Indians(The Trail of Tears,etc) but at times they are portrayed in a romantic way. The tribes were not all peace loving. They warred with each other.

Saint. Isaac Jogues, a Jesuit, worked with the Iroqois. They burned his two of his fingers off and on the second trip, tortured and killed him. Pope Pius XI on June 29, 1930 canonized a group of Jesuits.(8 Saints)

Father Jacques Marquette, a Jesuit, worked with the Indians. His statue is in the Hall of Fame in the capitol of Washington.

Father Junipero Sierra was a Jesuit who founded missions in California.

American Saint Catherine Tekakwitha was taught by the Jesuits. She belonged to the Mohawk Tribe which sided with the English.

Other orders had priest and nuns here, one being Father Louis Hennepin, Franciscan who worked with the Mohawks and Souix.

St. Augustine in Fla. was founded in 1566.
 
Teresa:

I urge you to use caution in confronting your professor. Some of these academics are extremely vindictive when one disagrees with their prejudices. It’s a terrible shame, but I have seen students downgraded for taking a perfectly supportable position in support of the Church; Western Civilization; the U.S. or anything else that does not fit their political or religious (usually anti-religious) agenda. Many have no conscience whatever in punishing those who disagree.

If your professor has turned the class into a forum for anti-Catholicism, it is exceedingly unlikely you will persuade him/her of anything. If I were you, my attention would be on my classmates, privately, who are probably more open to counter-argument, but who may have no sources for better information.
 
If he is rabid anti-catholic, I agree with Ridgerunner. Just give him what he wants, pass the class and get out of there.

If he’s not rabid, still write the graded papers and tests in the way he teaches.

And maybe this…
  1. Don’t challenge him directly but you may be able to interject a few sentences here and there during class.Choose words carefully. Be short, smile a nice smile at him at the end and hope he goes on quickly. If he’s really annoyed, I wouldn’t try it again.
  2. In an assignment in front of class, you may be able to interject a few of your own thoughts but remember that you may get a lesser grade on this one assignment.
Talking with classmates - good idea.
 
I would really really question the forced conversion myth. and myths are all it really is. Every mission you read about, evangalization was a slow and process for the new people. It could be deadly for the preists though
 
TNT said:
Well, NOW we have to ask for your source documents. Otherwise, it is just hearsay at best, gossip at worst…sinful.
So’s to keep you out of sin, we need the documents. Things like what weapons the Jesuits / adminstrators used, their MOTIVE for doing it, method of threat, torture, did the native warriors do nothing against them…that type of thing.
Oh, and some names, places, year, and soforth would be nice too.

Hope to hear from you today. Otherwise, I may lay out a documented case to get you fired as a New World historian.http://www.tradebit.com/usr/puzzler/pub/9001/thumb-dya2.gif
Click to expand...
Conversion was seldom an entirely voluntary process, and converts (neophytes) were not left to return to their old ways but were required to live in the walled mission enclosure or on rancherías, separate settlements sponsored by missions although located some distance from the mission proper.
from: memory.loc.gov/ammem/cbhtml/cbmissio.html
  1. A careful study of the Native American reaction to the
    mission life leads to the inescapable conclusion that some of
    the neophytes were satisfied with their lives, were truly
    converted and embraced the “better way” presented to them;
    and others hated the highly regimented life in the mission
    communities and wanted to return to their original way of life.
    In some missions 10-15% of the neophytes tried to escape in
    a given year. (Why would Indians be trying to escape if they weren’t forced to live that way)
  2. Over the years of Spanish and (after 1821) Mexican
    approach to the Native Americans changed. In the later
    decades of the mission era the soldiers were more aggressive in hunting down Indians and forcing them into the missions.
    There were more revolts by neophytes.
  3. The situation varied by mission, largely based on the
    personality and leadership of the senior padre. In missions
    like San Luis Rey, under Fr. Peyri, the Indians were well
    treated, run-a-ways were less of a problem and the mission
    achieved great success. San Luis Rey had the largest
    neophyte population in all of the Americas. (If they weren’t being forced, why would run aways be an issue at all?)
  4. A comparison of how the Native Americans were treated by the Spanish with how they were treated after the American
    takeover of California and the “Gold Rush” days is revealing.
    The relatively few surviving Indians in the 1840s and 1850s
    were treated much more cruelly by the Americans who
    coveted their land and distrusted the natives.
    from: missionscalifornia.com/qa/faq
I’m not saying it was widespread, or that it was common, or anything else like that. But to say that no Native Americans were treated badly or forced to convert is just plain wishful, fairy tale thinking.

Here’s a book to look at: Indians, Franciscans, and Spanish Colonization: The Impact of the Mission System on California Indians by Robert H. Jackson and Edward Castillo.
 
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