Catholic History

[jerome_ky]

I’m not sure which forum to ask this in, hopefully someone will move it if necessary.

This quote is from The New York Times Travel page, of all things. It’s about the Languedoc, France, and speaks of the Cathars.

(Full story: travel.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/travel/09Languedoc.html?hpw)

“Aspiring only to the purity of early Christianity, they [Cathars] were appalled by the worldliness of the medieval papacy and its debauched clerics.”

I hear and read this so much it seems that all Protestants consider it a given that the papacy has been nothing but a disaster for 2000 years. Even a Catholic writer like Garry Wills seems to spend most of his writing time outlining the abuses of the popes and clergy.

I know that not all popes and clergy have been evil, and neither have they been perfect. It does seem on the surface that there has been a lot of worldliness, however. I don’t know how accurate that is. I’d like to know if anyone can point me to a really good, objective source that will neither whitewash nor slander the historical Catholic hierarchy. They have been human, through 2000 years, but they have been giving us the sacraments for all that time, as well. Surely they weren’t “all bad.”

 

[Annie39]

I’m not sure which forum to ask this in, hopefully someone will move it if necessary.

This quote is from The New York Times Travel page, of all things. It’s about the Languedoc, France, and speaks of the Cathars.

(Full story: travel.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/travel/09Languedoc.html?hpw)

“Aspiring only to the purity of early Christianity, they [Cathars] were appalled by the worldliness of the medieval papacy and its debauched clerics.”

I hear and read this so much it seems that all Protestants consider it a given that the papacy has been nothing but a disaster for 2000 years. Even a Catholic writer like Garry Wills seems to spend most of his writing time outlining the abuses of the popes and clergy.

I know that not all popes and clergy have been evil, and neither have they been perfect. It does seem on the surface that there has been a lot of worldliness, however. I don’t know how accurate that is. I’d like to know if anyone can point me to a really good, objective source that will neither whitewash nor slander the historical Catholic hierarchy. They have been human, through 2000 years, but they have been giving us the sacraments for all that time, as well. Surely they weren’t “all bad.”

Here is a good article. newadvent.org/cathen/03435a.htm

 

[jerome_ky]

Here is a good article. newadvent.org/cathen/03435a.htm

Thank you. My question is about Catholic history, however, and not about the Cathars.

 

[Pax]

I’m not sure which forum to ask this in, hopefully someone will move it if necessary.

This quote is from The New York Times Travel page, of all things. It’s about the Languedoc, France, and speaks of the Cathars.

(Full story: travel.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/travel/09Languedoc.html?hpw)

“Aspiring only to the purity of early Christianity, they [Cathars] were appalled by the worldliness of the medieval papacy and its debauched clerics.”

I hear and read this so much it seems that all Protestants consider it a given that the papacy has been nothing but a disaster for 2000 years. Even a Catholic writer like Garry Wills seems to spend most of his writing time outlining the abuses of the popes and clergy.

I know that not all popes and clergy have been evil, and neither have they been perfect. It does seem on the surface that there has been a lot of worldliness, however. I don’t know how accurate that is. I’d like to know if anyone can point me to a really good, objective source that will neither whitewash nor slander the historical Catholic hierarchy. They have been human, through 2000 years, but they have been giving us the sacraments for all that time, as well. Surely they weren’t “all bad.”

I highly recommend H.D. Crocker’s book Triumph.

 

[lutherlic]

…
I know that not all popes and clergy have been evil, and neither have they been perfect. It does seem on the surface that there has been a lot of worldliness, however. I don’t know how accurate that is. I’d like to know if anyone can point me to a really good, objective source that will neither whitewash nor slander the historical Catholic hierarchy. They have been human, through 2000 years, but they have been giving us the sacraments for all that time, as well. Surely they weren’t “all bad.”

They were all sinful, including St. Peter, the other Apostles, the Saints, every pope, bishop and priest. This does not make them either evil or all bad - just human. They are not perfect in their earthly lives and we accept that. It changes nothing.

It seems to me that misdeeds of our clergy, historically or presently, are often cited to support claims that the Church lacks moral authority. Those making this argument hold the Church to a standard we could never assert. We should not try to say some of us, clergy or laity, are/were good and others bad. We should just acknowledge we are all striving for holiness as best we can.

 

[JimG]

Well, the bad popes get more press coverage than the others, and the good ones far outweigh the bad. Two thousand years covers a lot of history. I second the recommendation of H.D. Crocker’s book “Triumph,” even though it tries to cover a lot in a single book. But there are other good histories as well. I’d also recommend “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization,” by Thomas E. Woods.