Catholic & Homosexual - Trying To Make It Work An Failing

[Untruth]

I’ve been here before talking about being attracted to men as well as trying to resist the urges and stay true to my faith as a Catholic and there was a period of a few months where I maintained a ‘totally pure’ Catholic life with confession and trying really hard to not be pulled back in but it fell apart.

I know that people will say that it’s a cross that God has given me to carry, I think I’ve heard it all on both sides and sometimes I don’t know what I believe or what to believe and I don’t know if God really thinks that I can handle this cross. I’m not on here looking for someone to tell me “it’s OK, do what you want” or someone to just repeat what the Catechism says about SSA (which I’ve heard before on here). In fact, I don’t really know what I’m hoping to find on here, just maybe by spilling all my thoughts and hopes, someone can offer some advice that can help me sort this out.

I’m 100% attracted to guys, they’re physically attractive to me but I’ve never done anything with guys or girls. Sometimes I wonder I should try both and see what I truly like, maybe I just need the right girl. Then I think if I do find a nice girl that I’d like to marry, I would never be physically attracted to her which would be awful for her, especially if I lie to her about it, I know a girl would want to think her husband thinks she’s attractive and he’s attracted to her but I can’t do that. Now I’m opposed to ‘gay marriage’ I don’t even believe there is such a thing as that, as marriage can only be between a man and woman. I have no problem if they get legally ‘married’ where the same legal laws are applied to two people of the same sex but they should not call it ‘marriage.’ Personally I would never want to have a ‘gay marriage.’ Anyway, I’ve only ever had crushes on guys and well I just don’t know… all of this is hard on me.

It’s like I wonder if God knows how hard it is, yes it’s a huge cross he’s given me to carry but I’m not strong enough to carry this. Hearing people say that at the end of it all, God will judge me personally, so he’ll understand my life so he’ll know the troubles I faced and understand if I mess up and end up falling for guys full-time… plus the way I see it, if I get with a guy that’s a sin but if I get with a woman and lie to her about being attracted to her sexually, me and the woman’s life would be a lie and I suppose a sin. I also wonder about if I were just a good Catholic overall minus the gay part, what would God say. What about other people who don’t believe in God or follow a specific religion but are good people?

Well those are the things running through my mind right now, I want to be Catholic and I want to do what God wants me to do but if I just can’t and I also love what I can’t have… it’s hard to just “hold back” for the rest of my life like the Catechism says to do. Most of you that will read this are straight, and I’m damn jealous of you all, will not understand how hard it is to deny yourself purposefully of love or at least dating… I’m 20 years old and I’ve never gone on a date with anyone yet, I don’t know what it feels like to have someone love me on a romantic level all because of this and I really don’t know how I can go on like this. No I’m not suicidal or anything, just sometimes it really gets me and I don’t know what to do at all, ever. Sometimes turning to God works, sometimes it makes me feel even worse because I can’t do what he wants me to. I also look at it in the way that if I were straight, I’d be a really good Catholic with no worries… I want that so badly, but I just can’t be straight. Why did God make me gay if I could be guaranteed heaven if I were straight? It’s so hard for me to digest some of these thoughts… Help much appreciated.

 

[valentino]

The urge of the homosexual is just as strong as the heterosexual.And we all know how strong that is.Actually I think the Homosexual is doubly burdened.He’s not attracted to females which is a normal outlet for heterosexuals and he not allowed to engage in sex with a homosexual partner so he cannot find an outlet at all.But hetersexuals still have to practice restraint(which isn’t easy)and actually marry before they engage in sex.The flesh is extremely powerful in man since Adam sinned.Its a constant struggle to control the flesh.Overeating today is a particularly hard sin to overcome just to name one.Its only through Jesus’s help that man can win the struggle.Without dillegent prayer man hasn’t a chance.So my advice to any Homosexual is to keep praying and never quit asking Our Lady for Her intercession.Our Lady is most powerful in getting our prayers answered.

 

[michelleds]

Untruth, I feel for you, I really do. There are several of us on CAF, myself included, who have chosen to turn our backs on SSA and embrace God’s teachings and pursue holiness, just as the Bible directs us to.

So that you know where I’m coming from, I will briefly state the following: I’m 43, female, and recently converted to Catholicism. Until a year or so ago, I was an out lesbian and had been so since I was 18.

Here are a few things that I would offer to you to think about:

1. your burden is NO worse than your Catholic brothers who are heterosexual and unmarried. NO one is to be engaging in immoral behavior outside of marriage. Period. You are a special person, but quite frankly, your burden/cross is not special. We all have one and we all tend to think that ours is worse or more difficult than someone else’s. it’s not.
2. God is calling you. He is calling you to holiness and to love Him. He’s not asking anything from you that is impossible for you and He together.

I strongly recommend that you start reading about Christ’s Passion and the book I recommend is The School of Jesus Crucified from Tan Books. It’s easily divided so you can read one meditation each day.

Then I strongly recommend that you start reading about some of the Saints who struggled with chastity. There are Saints who were tormented with visions, with thoughts, with feelings. Saints who threw themselves in freezing ponds or briar patches in order to fight their bodily desires.

Fight the good fight, brother. I will pray for you.

 

[raaucoin]

First of all my friend, God does not ask anything of us that He knows we are incapable of doing.He may give us things to do that we can not do alone. For me, dsealing with homosexualiity was one of those. - Strangely enough, it was Michael Crawford singing Gethsemene from Jesus Christ super star that was my first help. As I listened to the passion and anguish and fear and anger and resolve in his voice, I was somehow transported to the Garden at Gethsemane. I took that to prayer. And there I met my Lord Jesus who knew every pain and anguish I was dealing with - or actually, trying to decide if I was going to deal with it. And I frequently go back there to meet Him.
My second help was in simply telling some people of faith _particularly the "little old ladies " at church- that I had to deal with something very difficult and asked them to pray for me. They me be little and old but don’t under-estimate the power and strength of their prayers. Then I started going to Daily Mass. I couldn’t tackle an “impossible” task if I wasn’t nourished for it. Frequent reconcilliation. Jesus always meets me in the confessional to take some of the burden off of my shoulders if I let Him.

 

[raaucoin]

(hit wrong button editing here’s rest of my post)
No, maybe you can’t do this alone. But it can be done if you use the help he sends.

Also, I had to give up the "poor me " attitude. Instead of viewing this as some kind of terrible curse, I see it as a gift. for some reason, He has chosen me to experience a tiny part of His agony and passion. When I see it as a gift, then I want to freely return a gift to Him. I have decided and chosen to give my Jesus the gift of my free will in regards to sexuality. No poor me, no victim of circumstance or anything else. What is mine, I freely and joyfully give.
Some would have us believe that the choice is in if we act on SSA. That’s a part of it but not even the most important part of it.(my opinion) What’s more important is WHAT are we GOING to DO. Our Priest said during Lent if you’re giving something up that’s going to make you so miserable that those around you are miserable, find another penance.
If your attitude about living as God wants you to live makes you miserable- Get another attitude! Hint: ask Jesus for one.

Part of what was so difficult for me was for years the “mainstream” told me that I couldn’t be a happy well adjusted person if I didn’t act on my feelings. And I thought I was the only gay person in the world who ever decided not to act on it. BIG LIES! My God, my Church, and people who care about me helped me along. The same is available to you. Afraid to fall? Don’t be. And remember God loves you as much when you sin as when you are in a state of grace. (I think He may be happier with the grace!!) Our fall is about us and how we relate to Him. Not the other way around. Judas let his fall keep him away from God. Peter messed up three times, but He came back. And look what God had waiting for him when he did!
Sometimes we may not even be willing to do the right thing. We want to be willing, but just aren’t there yet. Not saying that’s your case(maybe someone else reading this) In those times I believe God smiles on us if we pray for the willingness.

Finally, a lot of the footwork, you have to do, but this whole not giving in to SSA, you don’t have to do it alone unless you choose to.

 

[raaucoin]

And we don’t know if God makes us gay. St. Paul mentions he was given a thorn in his flesh. We don’t know what that was. We know He asked the Lord to remove it and was refused.Because the Lord said in Paul’s weakness His glory would be made to shine. Pray to St. Paul.

 

[Roman_Catechism]

While I’m not smart enough to offer advice, I will try and pray for your intentions.

 

[Credo_in_Deum]

In my struggle with sins of impurity one of the many graces God has given me is the increase in love. This grace has come primarily through the sacraments and the teachings of the Church but also through the people in which God has sent into my life to convey a very real and amazing message about what it means to have a personal relationship with Him. I have found that our journey with God is one of love and love only: nothing else matters but love and no actions are good unless love is their source. Not to mention God is Love itself which means anything we do in the name of love we do so in vain if it is done without Him.

"You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” –Matthew 22:37-39

This verse was a tremendous help because it made me realize that the love of neighbor would help me understand what it means to truly love God and myself, so I continued my search to see what Gods Word had to say about loving my neighbor.

**“Greater love than this no man hath, that a man lay down his life for his friends.” –John 15:13 **

I thought: if to lay down my life for my friends is the greatest act of love I can show them then wouldn’t it be the greatest act of love I could show God? Can I say I truly love God if I do not lay down my life for Him? What does it mean to lay down my life for God?

“But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us” –Romans 5:8.

It quickly dawned on me that in order for any relationship to work, whether it is with your husband/wife, family, friends, co-workers or etc. then there had to be mutual self-sacrifice between those involved. Love is not selfish but selfless and Christ who has already done His part is waiting for us to make the same decision to do ours. But how do we lay down or life for Him? What does it mean to do this and what happens when we do this?

**“Father, if you are willing, take this cup away from me; still, not my will but yours be done.”—Luke 22:42

“For whosoever will save his life, shall lose it: and whosoever shall lose his life for my sake and the gospel, shall save it”.—Mathew 8:35

“I am crucified with Christ, and no longer live, I, but Christ lives in me; but in that I now live in flesh, I live by faith, the faith of the Son of God, who has loved me and given himself for me.”—Galatians 2:20**

Laying down my life means sacrificing my will and giving it to God so He may do with it what He wills. Laying down my life means that I freely choose -out of love- to conform my will to Gods so that I may become one with Him who is Love itself. If I do not do this then I do not love GodI, myself or my neighbor. How then could I look the person I’m with in the eyes and say to them that I truly love them if by being with them I left God? How can there be true love when the Source of all true Love is not present? The short answer is there couldnt be true love present because this “love” would have come from selfish actions.

This then brought me to happiness and the necessity for God which opened my eyes even more to how distorted and misplaced my priorities and love were in this life.

 

[Untruth]

Thank you all so much for commenting and replying. It was all very insightful wisdom you all handed to me, and I appreciate it. I wanted to talk about something people mentioned where they said that the struggle is the same as heterosexuals. I personally don’t agree, yes they can’t have sex before marriage without it being a sin but they can date, they can kiss, they can fall in love with each other. I can’t do any of that, and I’ve never felt it. It’s saddening that it’s something that I can never or will never experience.

 

[Roman_Catechism]

** I personally don’t agree, yes they can’t have sex before marriage without it being a sin but they can date, they can kiss, they can fall in love with each other. I can’t do any of that, and I’ve never felt it. It’s saddening that it’s something that I can never or will never experience.**

It is true that you are not carrying the same burden as those who are waiting for marriage. But you are essentially carrying a very similar burden as all permanently celibate individuals. You’re far from being alone in your struggle.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Untruth, I’m very sorry to see the amount of pain you’re in. Many heterosexual folks can’t quite understand just how painful your situation is. In a general sense, our sexuality is fundamental to our capacity to form relationships, fundamental to our desire to move beyond ourselves and into communion with others, on all sorts of levels. It is fundamental to our relationship with God. To be in a situation in which one desires right relationships, but to be told that there is something in the very faculty of one’s desire that is somehow wrong is a very unique, confusing, and specific pain. I wanted to start by acknowledging that in the hope that you realize that you’re not alone (many of us Christians who happen to be homosexual have experienced a form of this pain) even if solidarity is not necessarily the comfort you desire.

And before I go much further, Untruth, I want state here that I’m not a Roman Catholic, and that I disagree vehemently with some of its teachings regarding homosexuality. I therefore encourage you to question what I have to say. That having been said, I adamantly will not counsel you to leave Roman Catholicism, nor do I want to counsel you to reject the teachings that I have rejected. It would be wrong of me to do so. I want to encourage you to avail yourself of the resources that are available to you through your Church and through your community. You need the love and support of friends, family, fellow parishioners, and priests.

In the meantime, I want to challenge you to shift your thinking just a little bit in a handful of ways.

1–Stop beating up on yourself for not being “totally pure.” In the midst of this vale of tears through which we are traveling, the Old Adam is too often a familiar companion. But by God’s grace, we are made one in Baptism and in the Sacraments with the New Adam. When God sees us, he sees his Son in us by the grace of the Holy Spirit. The work of the Spirit in us is to conform us to the Son. You can call this “purity” if you like, I suppose, but that often seems misleading, to me–it suggests being “right.” Or “n the right.” But I don’t think it’s about being “right” or exactly measuring up to a list of dos and don’ts–it’s about being in relationship with a living Person, a living Being, a living God who loves you more than you could ever fathom, and who desires for you the fullness of the bliss which is Himself.

This is not an encouragement to sin, believing that Jesus makes whatever we do okay because he loves us. No. It’s an encouragement to shift the focus of one’s moral life away from ticking boxes on a purity code to which we can never measure up, looking instead towards relationship with the Lover of Souls, trusting that he will give us grace to rise when we fall, promising that he Himself will be in us the righteousness that we cannot produce ourselves.

In short, there is no amount of good that you can do that will amount to very much. It will not justify you or make you “pure.” And being heterosexual won’t help you there either. But the good that God does in you and through you, and that he desires to do in you and through you and specifically you, my brother? How tremendous that can be!!

[CONTINUED…]

 

[Deo_Volente]

…CONTINUED & COMPLETED]

2–Try to move away from seeing your homosexuality as a burden to bear. Sure, it may feel to you like a burden, but in itself, it is not a burden. You may have to trust me on this for now, but what is burdensome about it comes from an internalization of the negativity others feel towards it. Those negativities comprise the burden. Human sexuality is a good and precious gift from God. It allows us to be in all sorts of relationships, including in relationship with God himself. It forms the part of our will which desires us to go beyond ourselves and be in community with each other.

And God is not a sadist. God does not assign us burdens either willy nilly or “for our own good.” But we are born into a fallen world and into the various social and cultural contexts of that world and in those contexts, sometimes the good gifts which God has given us are seen by others as disgusting or wrong. That perception is a burden. But God suffers with us when we suffer, he mourns with us when we mourn, and he is our joy when we are happy. God wants nothing more and nothing less than to be our joy. He does not afflict us with pain and then tell us it was for our own good. Dame Julian of Norwich writes in her revelations that she saw in Christ no wrath, only an infinitude of love and friendship which was so overwhelming that it confused and startled her.

Now it is true that sometimes the pain we experience in life is the result of the love of God removing us from the attachment to our sins. This is a salutary pain. It is not a pain God wills for us, though, but a pain that is the result of our stubborn wills which would rather remain focused in on ourselves than on God. God shares our pain here, too. But I do not believe that the pain you are feeling now is this sort of pain. As I’ve already mentioned, one of the brilliantly good things about our sexuality is that it naturally draws us out of ourselves and into relationship with others. It is outwardly and otherly directed and not fundamentally directed towards the empty self. This is good. Very good, in fact! And even though the catechism may call the direction of our sexuality “disordered,” it does not call it evil or sin. Our sexuality remains fundamentally outwardly and otherly directed. And that, friend, remains very good, no matter how else it is described.

3–Try to discover some of the hidden gifts of being homosexual. Being gay myself, I have always felt outside the mainstream, and I have learned that this is a precious gift. It allows me to see things, hidden things, often things that are consigned to the margins of culture or society, that others quickly overlook or refuse to notice. It allows me to see my world a bit more critically. But more importantly, I’ve discovered that it encourages me to be more compassionate–because I, too, know what rejection and marginalization are about. And I would not give up any of these things.

4–Remember that what the catechism asks of you as a Roman Catholic is basically this: don’t have sex. And while I, admittedly, disagree with the cathechism’s teaching here for a number of reasons I won’t get into, I want to tell you: there is nothing whatsoever wrong with not having sex. Nothing. Nothing wrong with it at all. You are not, nor will you be, less of a person if you do not have sex.

And here I want to say something that might be construed as somewhat controversial by a few folks here. The catechism does not demand that you refrain from giving or receiving any kind of love. Even romantic love. It asks that you refrain from having sex. You are not being asked to be alone. This might cause people some trouble, particularly those who are very concerned with “occasions of sin” and such things. But let me encourage you to look at some high examples of romantic but nonetheless beautiful and Platonic love. Look at Dante and Beatrice. Look at Layla and Majnoon. Look at Jonathan and David (who kissed each other quite a lot, by the way). Most of all, look at Our Lady and St. Joseph. Imagine the depth of the love the two of them shared! How great and vast it must have been! How brightly it must have burned! How tenderly they must have looked at each other! How beautifully they must have lived together!

I hope these things are helpful to you, Untruth. My hope and my prayer for you is that your heart be put at ease. You are not alone. God loves you, God desires to be in relationship with you, and God will give you strength and courage to grow in his love at this difficult time. Look how far you’ve come already! Being able to talk about your fears and your pain here is no small feat. There are many, I’m sure, who burn to do so, but shame or self-hatred or fear stop them. Even in this moment of challenge and of suffering, of questioning and of need, you are bearing witness to the love of God in you.

I’ll pray for you, brother. Please pray for me.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[michelleds]

…CONTINUED & COMPLETED]
]

Mark, there are things about your posts that I would disagree with or wish to parse out further, but I think that another thread would be a better place to do so. What I want to say here is that you wrote a beautiful and compassionate response to the OP.

 

[Elizabeth502]

…Try to move away from seeing your homosexuality as a burden to bear. Sure, it may feel to you like a burden, but in itself, it is not a burden. You may have to trust me on this for now, but what is burdensome about it comes from an internalization of the negativity others feel towards it. Those negativities comprise the burden.

No. It is not because others are evil. (“Feel negatively.”) It is because the OP understands that divine law ordains and blesses heterosexual behavior, not homosexual, and he understands that he cannot feel something he does not currently feel or has ever felt, or at least that he cannot imagine himself at the present moment feeling differently in the future than he does now. The fact that he is aware of the disconnect between his feelings and moral truth is what burdens him. the constant awareness of not being able to have the natural impulse that most other men do, is what is burdensome. I reach my assessment strictly from his own words.

Like other good Catholics, he instinctively understands that this has nothing to do with societal approval or disapproval, but the approval of God, through God’s Church.

OP, God does not expect you to lie: either with regard to any pretended attraction to females, nor with regard to your understanding of your faith, an understanding which seems to acknowledge the mercy and compassion of God with the crosses each of us differently has to handle, and relative to the personality strengths and weaknesses each of us has been given.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Hi Elizabeth.

No. It is not because others are evil. (“Feel negatively.”)

I did not say they were evil. Simply because someone feels negatively about something doesn’t mean they’re evil.

It is because the OP understands that divine law ordains and blesses heterosexual behavior, not homosexual, and he understands that he cannot feel something he does not currently feel or has ever felt, or at least that he cannot imagine himself at the present moment feeling differently in the future than he does now. The fact that he is aware of the disconnect between his feelings and moral truth is what burdens him. the constant awareness of not being able to have the natural impulse that most other men do, is what is burdensome. I reach my assessment strictly from his own words.

This may in fact be the case, Elizabeth, though I hope it is not. Here’s why: someone may believe that homosexual behavior is right out, not ordained, not blessed, not condoned, not whatever. They may believe that homosexual attraction is disordered. But the catechism stops short of calling that attraction sin. It does not follow, therefore, that someone must believe that their homosexual attraction is incapable of being a source of blessing, even if it cannot lead to “homosexual acts.” Which is to say, believing all of the things that the catechism asks one to believe regarding homosexuality, it is still possible to view homosexuality not as a burden, but as a blessing.

Regarding the natural impulse, I see what you’re saying…but if one’s native impulse is oriented toward homosexuality, what is natural here takes on new meaning–i.e., it begins to look like “natural for others.” Let me explain. I have not had an experience of heterosexual desire. I don’t know what that feels like. It is not natural to me because it is not native to me. Can I desire something of which I have no knowledge or consciousness? Can I desire it as *natural *if I have never experienced it as part of my nature? You can speak of it as natural only if you speak of it metaphorically as normative or place it within the context of natural law reasoning, but in both cases, the definition of “nature” changes ever so slightly.

Moreover, it cannot be the case that “the natural” is a category of being in which it is impossible for someone to participate–which is perpetually beyond or outside of us. If that were the case, we would be perpetually alienated from ourselves insofar as we understand ourselves to have a nature or participate in nature at all. In any case, the catechism does not ask homosexuals (or anyone) to assume this burden of alienation from the natural. I would argue that the extent to which we experience this alienation is the extent to which we have internalized the alienation that others (not God, not the catechism, not the Church) have forced upon us or modeled for us, often with very good intentions.

Like other good Catholics, he instinctively understands that this has nothing to do with societal approval or disapproval, but the approval of God, through God’s Church.

Elizabeth, you cannot be saying that God’s approval is dependent on one being heterosexual.

Perhaps we should continue this discussion privately. I would rather that Untruth receive the support and charity he deserves and desires and not be subject to our arguing over how many angels can (or cannot) fit on the head of a pin…

Under the Mercy,
Mark

 

[Elizabeth502]

I did not say they were evil. Simply because someone feels negatively about something doesn’t mean they’re evil.

But they are also not the source of his burden.

They may believe that homosexual attraction is disordered. But the catechism stops short of calling that attraction sin.

I didn’t call it a sin, either. Nor did the OP. You’re “arguing” nothing.

It does not follow, therefore, that someone must believe that their homosexual attraction is incapable of being a source of blessing, even if it cannot lead to “homosexual acts.” Which is to say, believing all of the things that the catechism asks one to believe regarding homosexuality, it is still possible to view homosexuality not as a burden, but as a blessing.

Every cross, Mark, can be seen as a blessing. In fact, the spiritual counsels tell us to view all crosses as blessings.

In any case, the catechism does not ask homosexuals (or anyone) to assume this burden of alienation from the natural.

Actually it does. Otherwise it would not require those with SSA not to act on what their “natural” (or perceived as natural) attractions are.

I would argue that the extent to which we experience this alienation is the extent to which we have internalized the alienation that others (not God, not the catechism, not the Church) have forced upon us or modeled for us, often with very good intentions.

You’re simply wrong. And for you to continue in this manner is doing a grave disservice to the OP. It’s also not what he himself has expressed, so for you to continue in this manner is to propagandize him, however much you declared previously that you didn’t want to lead him away from his Catholic faith. You continually challenge the Catechism by interpreting it in ways that no authoritative Catholic theologian does.

Elizabeth, you cannot be saying that God’s approval is dependent on one being heterosexual.

Which is why I didn’t, which is why there is no issue. Why are you inserting straw men?

I would rather that Untruth receive the support and charity he deserves and desires

Then stop misleading him.

and not be subject to our arguing over how many angels can (or cannot) fit on the head of a pin…

It’s YOUR argument, not mine. Your wish to find technical excuses, not mine.

 

[Deo_Volente]

Grace & Peace!

Elizabeth, I’m perplexed by your defensiveness.

But they are also not the source of his burden.

I never said they were. I was speaking of internalized negativity and shame. “They” or “other people” are not the enemies here. They never are and I never said they were. Our perceptions of others (and even of ourselves) are much more likely to be our enemies.

I didn’t call it a sin, either. Nor did the OP. You’re “arguing” nothing.

I wasn’t arguing with you, just being clear on the assumptions I was or wasn’t making. Nor was I attacking you. Nor was I imputing to you a belief which you clearly do not hold.

Every cross, Mark, can be seen as a blessing. In fact, the spiritual counsels tell us to view all crosses as blessings.

Indeed! I tried to avoid language of cross-bearing, however, because I feel that it easily becomes about, “suffering with things we don’t like about ourselves and would rather not have to deal with.” I don’t think that entirely speaks to what it means to take up our cross and follow Our Lord. Because the cross which Our Lord bore was our shame, not his own. It was our sin, not his own*. *He occupied the space of death for us so that we would not have to. It seems to me that taking up our cross and following him, doing likewise, means to share another’s burden, to occupy the space of shame for another and share, thereby, in Christ’s sacrifice to the extent to which grace gives us the ability. When Christ breaks the bread and says, “Do this,” he is not only establishing the Sacrament–he is saying, “Break for others, like I’m breaking for you. Do this like I’m doing it.” This, to me, is what taking up our cross means. This is perhaps a point of interpretation on which we simply do not or will not agree. I’m fine with that.

Actually it does. Otherwise it would not require those with SSA not to act on what their “natural” (or perceived as natural) attractions are.

Not having sex does not alienate one from nature. Positing that the position of homosexuals is that of someone who must naturally pine for the nature that can never be his or her own is to say that homosexuals are or should be alienated from nature. I argued that the catechism does not suggest that this should be the case.

Here’s the substance of my point here, Elizabeth. Why does it always seem in these discussions that the only right attitude for a homosexual to have (particularly a Christian homosexual, particularly a Roman Catholic homosexual), is one of anguish regarding their sexuality? Why must the vocabulary of affliction (I suffer from SSA, or I have SSA like others have leukemia) be the norm or be constantly re-enforced? Why does it appear like that’s the only option? Why is it so important for homosexuals to be in pain? I don’t get it. Particularly when it seems clear to me that being faithful to the magisterium does not require living a life of perpetual anguish.

You’re simply wrong. And for you to continue in this manner is doing a grave disservice to the OP. It’s also not what he himself has expressed, so for you to continue in this manner is to propagandize him, however much you declared previously that you didn’t want to lead him away from his Catholic faith. You continually challenge the Catechism by interpreting it in ways that no authoritative Catholic theologian does.

Elizabeth, I’m not particularly invested in being “right” here. I was offering an opinion, not a diagnosis. I was not aware of any attempt to propagandize anything–I was being careful, in fact, not to imply that God or the Church or the catechism was colluding in bringing about a situation of alienation. I never suggested that the Church was to blame. I wonder, sometimes, what you’re actually reading when you read these posts, Elizabeth.

Moreover, it is clear that I am not an authoritative Catholic theologian. I hope I made that clear in my original post on this thread. Moreover, I counselled that, given what I had made clear, that what I said should be questioned. I’m glad you’re doing that, Elizabeth. Hopefully that will prove helpful, either to Untruth or to someone else.

Which is why I didn’t, which is why there is no issue. Why are you inserting straw men?

Elizabeth, I clearly did not understand what you were saying. Thank you for clarifying.

Then stop misleading him.

I wasn’t aware that I was being misleading. I hope I wasn’t. Perhaps you could show me on another thread or in private what I was saying that was so misleading.

It’s YOUR argument, not mine. Your wish to find technical excuses, not mine.

Believe it or not, I’m not interested in arguing with you, Elizabeth. I wasn’t aware that I was trying to find technical excuses, nor am I aware of what I would be finding those excuses for. Perhaps you could show me where I was trying to find these excuses (and what they were for) either in another thread or in private?

I was trying to clarify the points to which you objected. Obviously it didn’t work. I remain unconvinced that carrying this further in this thread would be particularly profitable, though if you feel it would be illuminating to continue here, or helpful to others, I will oblige you and hope that you’re right.

Under the Mercy,
Mark

All is Grace and Mercy! Deo Gratias!

 

[InSearchofGrace]

I’ve been here before talking …

… Why did God make me gay if I could be guaranteed heaven if I were straight? It’s so hard for me to digest some of these thoughts… Help much appreciated.

Have courage, Untruth. Don’t despair. Yes, it’s hard to mute so many voices and influences around, all saying a sex-centered, sex-driven life is not to be endured, or could not be meaningful. Lady Gaga songs, film, TV programs, pornography in print and the internet, all suggesting “do it” and “do it now.” And a lack of real heroes and models for your generation.

Given your youth, you’re probably asking, but what would you do for the next forty years of your life.

As a sister whose brother accepted SSA as a drive that can’t be sublimated, taking what was thought to be the easier road to take years before, lived the lifestyle for a decade, and is very sorry for it now, let me give you this advice: don’t be in a hurry to follow this unquestioning trend in the young, nor the advice from those in this forum who may just want more to join them in unbelief in the teaching of our faith. Acting on same sex attraction, which is sinful, is being packaged as wholesome and normal to validate their own choices. You may even hear that there is such a thing as gay spirituality. There is none. When the exotic becomes erotic, it is harder to leave as the act or acts become habit, and habit sets in like a drug dependency.

You talked about your struggle in your previous posts and I remember those great thoughts you shared in the thread Homosexuality and Celibacy

Let me suggest a couple of links you would find as interesting reading:

Spiritual and Emotional Growth: Six Areas of Personal Growth

There Are Options

and two more, the last link with a sub-menu in help finding a Catholic therapist, in case that is an option for you,

The Origins and Healing of Homosexual Attractions by Dr. Richard Fitzgibbons

Why Catholic Therapists

Blessing and prayers for you.
,

 

[EasterJoy]

Failure in the moral life is not rare. As the saying goes, “The saints were not people who never fail, but the people who kept getting up.”

I also don’t believe that our every difficulty is something “sent by God”. Rather, most of our difficulties are the result of the Fall. I do believe that God can transform every difficulty into a victory. The Cross didn’t come from God; the Cross came from the Fall. The Passion and Resurrection is what God can do with crosses. Hope tells us that our tries, buried through baptism in the victory of Christ, will likewise be transformed by the power of God.

OP, you say you are not strong enough to carry your own cross. You don’t have to be. You don’t have to never fall. You have to want to never fall. Keeping wanting that, keep trying, and you will be taken care of.

Also, realize that most straight men also struggle with aspects of their sexuality that are less than pure. They look at women with lust in their hearts. Some have porn addictions, some have a very hard time being faithful to one woman. The man who marries one woman and never has a thought or temptation for another exists, but he’s not the majority, particularly not in an age like ours, where the glamour of evil can beckon so openly and constantly. You have a particularly difficult problem, but you aren’t alone.

Remember, too, that Our Lord himself never married. He was in a culture in which a man who didn’t marry was judged, sometimes very harshly. It is entirely possible that he lived with accusations that he was homosexual. You can imagine how hard it would have been for him to have the desires any man might have, and yet know that his call was to remain as he was, regardless of what others said or whispered about him, regardless of how they might have tried to make him into something he could not be. Maybe that will help you to see that he understands what you are going through very well, indeed. Likewise, Our Lady and St. Joseph were married, but completely abstinent, because of her unique place in salvation. They know what it is to see the world living an ideal that does not apply to you. It might help you to believe that God can create an ideal of God’s own making around you, something no one would imagine, something that will eternally shine as a splendid thing.

You were created through him, too; realize that he understands you better than you understand yourself. He understands all your struggles, and he knows how hard you have struggled to please him rather than himself. That is the kind of struggle that is pleasing to God, not because it is hard or because God loves suffering, but because God cannot but be pleased by someone who will go to such lengths because love of God demands it.

 

[EasterJoy]

What about other people who don’t believe in God or follow a specific religion but are good people?

We are made to know, love, and serve God. In all justice, God deserves worship and service from his creatures. In his love, doing just that is our highest and best life, the deepest desire of our heart. Just like a mobster who loves his grandchildren and helps the poor is still a mobster who deserves prison for his terrible crimes, you cannot know that God deserves worship, deny God that worship, and yet because of your other good deeds in some sense remain a “good person.” Being better than some is not the same as being good.

If others who do their best to follow the moral law as they know it also know of God but will not worship him, there is something lacking in their goodness. If they have been told of God or are invincibly ignorant, then what they lack is a great grace, a great aspect of what it means to be human. If they pursue the good they have been given the light to see, then one day they will know, they will love, they will worship, and they will serve, and, seeing God with their own eyes, they will give thanks and praise to God for finally giving them that great gift.